Gurgel Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, nakomaru said: Don't worry, it happens. Who are you quoting? Because it is not me... 4 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: That's a huge amount of heat. I bet the International Space Station would absolutely LOVE to have a radiator that efficient in orbit. A typical space radiator will remove between 100 and 350 watts per square meter. Thus assuming 350 watts/m2 you would need a little over 14 m2 of radiator surface area. Did I say anything about the size of the thing anywhere? Seriously people stop criticizing. The rules of this thread are "Nothing is right or wrong, just opinions please". Please respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacovf Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: That's a huge amount of heat. I bet the International Space Station would absolutely LOVE to have a radiator that efficient in orbit. A typical space radiator will remove between 100 and 350 watts per square meter. Thus assuming 350 watts/m2 you would need a little over 14 m2 of radiator surface area. I don’t think any of the numbers relevant to heat or energy in ONI are anywhere near what they should be based on real life, but on what makes for better game balance. Note too that the devs seem to have assumed that 1 kDTU ~ 1 W, so that would actually be pretty tame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, Gurgel said: Seriously people stop criticizing. The rules of this thread are "Nothing is right or wrong, just opinions please". Please respect that. I'm not criticizing. I'm trying to understand how it would work. My opinion is that a space radiator would be nice, but the one on the ISS would need to be 3m2 to reject the heat from my PC while I'm playing ONI. To be perfectly clear: I did not say anything critical of your post or idea. I simply stated that its orders of magnitude more efficient than the one on the space station and that a 5kDTU radiator would be huge. 6 minutes ago, pacovf said: I don’t think any of the numbers relevant to heat or energy in ONI are anywhere near what they should be based on real life, but on what makes for better game balance. Note too that the devs seem to have assumed that 1 kDTU ~ 1 W, so that would actually be pretty tame. No, I don't think that is correct. Otherwise the 5 watt ceiling light would put out much more heat than it does. But, hey.. whatever. I'll just go back to my corner and not participate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: To be perfectly clear: I did not say anything critical of your post or idea. I simply stated that its orders of magnitude more efficient than the one on the space station and that a 5kDTU radiator would be huge. It actually would not need to be. It is not meant to be "realistic", I am not in that camp. Actual real world heat radiation would also be dependent on temperature and could even be negative if you do not have a side away from the sun. That is far too complicated and hard to understand for this game. As this is actually a piece of code, it can do anything I want it to. And that, incidentally, the spirit of this thread. It is about asking for changes we would like and I an doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacovf Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: No, I don't think that is correct. Otherwise the 5 watt ceiling light would put out much more heat than it does. I actually made a (recently archived) thread about this! The conversion from Watts to DTUs is awkward at best, since it's not constant from one building to another, but I think 1 kDTU - 1 W is still the closest we can get to a conversion from one to the other. I don't claim to hold the final answer though. 6 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: But, hey.. whatever. I'll just go back to my corner and not participate. I apologize if I have made you feel like your input is not welcome :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightinggale Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 27 minutes ago, Gurgel said: Seriously people stop criticizing. The rules of this thread are "Nothing is right or wrong, just opinions please". Please respect that. I think the issue is that there is a flaw in the topic. If somebody posts something controversial, then what? Apparently we can put everything on a wishlist, but we can't say "I don't want that". I do agree that it seems to derail the thread. We should leave it at "disputed" and if anybody has anything else to say, start a new thread. If in the future somebody wants to dispute something, start a thread and then reply here that it's disputed and post a link to the discussion thread. I think that's the best we can do as a balance between a clean thread and the ability to disagree with statements. Btw what I mainly disputed was removing yet another heat management system. I think we nerfed or lost enough already. Proposals to add differs from proposals for removing stuff. EDIT: (because I don't want to spam this thread with debate) yes I know there are other cooling proposed, but since they are proposals, we have to assume the possibility of just one make it to the game. Also I like options and I don't want to be told how I should play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Just now, pacovf said: I actually made a (recently archived) thread about this! The conversion from Watts to DTUs is awkward at best, since it's not constant from one building to another, but I think 1 kDTU - 1 W is still the closest we can get to a conversion from one to the other. I don't claim to hold the final answer though. I apologize if I have made you feel like your input is not welcome :/ I'll have to look through that thread.. and my parting remark was in response to being told to stop criticizing. Anyway, if in the real world it takes 4.178kj of thermal energy to warm 1kg of water by 1c, and in ONI it takes 4.178kDTU to warm 1kg of water by 1c, then 1 DTU = 1 Joule. So 1 DTU/s would be 1 Joule/s = 1 watt. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what the numbers look like to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, Nightinggale said: Btw what I mainly disputed was removing yet another heat management system. I think we nerfed or lost enough already. Proposals to add differs from proposals for removing stuff. In that case you may want to look at the rest of my wish-list. 9 minutes ago, Nightinggale said: I think the issue is that there is a flaw in the topic. If somebody posts something controversial, then what? There is not. It is a perfectly fine (and standard) way to find out what people want. I am sorry to say you derailed that pretty thoroughly. The very point is to even let very controversial points stand undisputed, because they are what somebody wants. I can see you have problems doing that. 8 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: I'll have to look through that thread.. and my parting remark was in response to being told to stop criticizing. Anyway, if in the real world it takes 4.178kj of thermal energy to warm 1kg of water by 1c, and in ONI it takes 4.178kDTU to warm 1kg of water by 1c, then 1 DTU = 1 Joule. So 1 DTU/s would be 1 Joule/s = 1 watt. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what the numbers look like to me. 1 kDTU = 1000 DTU. You missed that "k". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacovf Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Just now, KittenIsAGeek said: I'll have to look through that thread.. and my parting remark was in response to being told to stop criticizing. Anyway, if in the real world it takes 4.178kj of thermal energy to warm 1kg of water by 1c, and in ONI it takes 4.178kDTU to warm 1kg of water by 1c, then 1 DTU = 1 Joule. So 1 DTU/s would be 1 Joule/s = 1 watt. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what the numbers look like to me. Yeah, you are absolutely correct on that front. It just doesn't match what buildings do, if you presume a very approximate form of conservation of energy. So either it's some buildings that produce ~1000 times too much heat, or the heat capacity of materials is ~1000 times too low. Or 1 second in ONI represents 1000 seconds in real life, but instead of saying so explicitly, the devs fudge some values to have the same end effect. I am personally a fan of the last interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, Gurgel said: In that case you may want to look at the rest of my wish-list. There is not. It is a perfectly fine (and standard) way to find out what people want. I am sorry to say you derailed that pretty thoroughly. The very point is to even let very controversial points stand undisputed, because they are what somebody wants. I can see you have problems doing that. 1 kDTU = 1000 DTU. You missed that "k". No, my numbers are just fine. 4.178kJ = 4.178kDTU --> 4.178k * 1J = 4.178k * 1 DTU. -> 1 joule = 1 DTU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nakomaru Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: Anyway, if in the real world it takes 4.178kj of thermal energy to warm 1kg of water by 1c, and in ONI it takes 4.178kDTU to warm 1kg of water by 1c, then 1 DTU = 1 Joule. So 1 DTU/s would be 1 Joule/s = 1 watt. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what the numbers look like to me. Yep. Most material properties are taken from the real world with 1 DTU = 1 J. In the debug, it lists J instead of DTU. In old versions, it was simply J. The name was changed because electrical watts in the game have very broken numbers for efficiency when converting between the two, due to balance. For example the steam turbine has like 0.2% efficiency or something, when using this information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: No, my numbers are just fine. 4.178kJ = 4.178kDTU --> 4.178k * 1J = 4.178k * 1 DTU. -> 1 joule = 1 DTU. The claim was 1 kDTU = 1W. You nicely showed 1DTU = 1J. That means 1 kDTU = 1000J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Dupe Thermal Units (DTU) are not watts. Period. There is no time factor in the units for the DTU. Once you put a time factor in, THEN you get watts from DTUs. I didn't bother correcting the original statement because I didn't feel pedantic. However, since it appears that I must be, here goes: The Specific Heat Capacity of Water in the real world is 4.179 J/g/oC. The Specific Heat Capacity of Water in ONI is 4.179 DTU/g/oC. If we have 1kg of water, those numbers becomes 4.178k J/oC and 4.178k DTU/oC of thermal energy. Since we're looking at the temperature change over 1oC, then we have 4.179k J and 4.179k DTU. This means that 1J = 1 DTU. When you're looking at a change every second, now we have 4.178k J/s to continually raise 1kg of water by 1oC. The same is true in ONI, except that the numbers are 4.178k DTU/s. 1 J/s = 1 watt of power. Therefore, since 4.178k J/s = 4.178k DTU/s, 1 J/s = 1 DTU/s = 1 watt. References: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: Dupe Thermal Units (DTU) are not watts. Confusing W and J was the other mistake in that original claim. I should add that I am not talking about your claim at all. I am talking about "Note too that the devs seem to have assumed that 1 kDTU ~ 1 W". That one is both wrong in unit and prefix. Your numbers and calculations are fine. Sorry for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightinggale Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 We need to get back on topic. If you want to debate thermal stuff, start a new thread for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 I have one more: Added real-time global chat so players can snipe at each other while playing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Whew it's getting pretty hot in here. Steam transforming to gaseous gold bug fixed (yes this can be done). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaloneyOs Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 They're probably going super ultra ultimate final form crunch time today so we might actually see some massive changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderCN Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Stress system completely reworked. Germ system completely reworked. Disease system completely reworked. Morale system heavily modified. Medical system reworked, decor system reworked. Each resource tile gives only 50% of what it used to. Building auto sweepers is now an operation job and not a building job. Sorry if that sounds negative but way too many systems seem to just not play a role in the game right now. Also making me put my tinkerer on max build to build an auto sweeper messes me up every time~. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qubit Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 All sorts of great stuff in this thread. I'll stick to just two tiny pet peevey things: - Added option to suppress Long Commutes Message (Yes, there's a mod to do this. No, I shouldn't need one.) Maybe some folks are really engaged by the challenge of trying to turn this message off on a reasonably sized late game base. (And I reckon it could be done with a "village style" multiple micro-base layout combined with heavy dupe movement restrictions.) Heck, that sounds kinda fun as a specific one-time playthru goal. But, at least give me the option not to see this message if I am *not* aiming for that setup on a particular base. - Added option to suppress further "Skill Point Earned" notifications after they reach a certain threshold. If I haven't spent the last 10 (or 5, or, honestly, 3) skill points earned on a particular dupe, the odds that I continue to want to be notified about that dupe's every subsequent skill up for all time going forward approach nil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Metal cannon obliterated (the bug reports claim it was fixed over a year ago, but this says otherwise) MULTIPLAYER (runs from room before shots are fired). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgamer123 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 remove puft =profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metallichydra Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 5 hours ago, nakomaru said: are there sporechid seeds on that asteroid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N00bieMeap Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 - Chlorine (gas/liquid?) geyser granduated - 1 Leaky oil geyser granduated in world trait: Irregular Oil - Add feature: No light, no hot surface - Longer night - Satterlite poi(s) appear sometimes - Printing Pod print everythings - Add feature: Ranch base on life age (kill/wrangle...) - No element "consumption" building, only exchange - Sporechids bloom on corpses after x time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamApart Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 12 hours ago, metallichydra said: volcanoes now erupt with such power, that it can damage tiles They'd have to shoot the eruption to some height to look like such power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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