stretch611 Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 Personally, I can deal with the issue of no longer having a fixed output on the water sieve. However, I do have a problem with magically adding heat now instead of magically deleting heat. When it comes down to it, a water sieve functions as nothing more than a sand filter and pushing water through it to remove impurities (which are left in the sand creating polluted dirt.) If I start with cold water, or even room temperature water, what does a sieve do to justify that much heat being added? It does create a little heat by actually pumping water... but nothing else about the process creates heat. And is the pumping local on the sieve? After all, we have an actual pump moving water into the sieve... and it creates its own heat (which is significantly less than what the water sieve now creates.) While pumping can justify a small amount of heat added to the machinery, the output water temperature should adjust to a weighted average of the input water, the filtration medium, and the machine temperature. More than that is just as wrong as deleting the heat ever was. There is a caveat, I could understand increasing the heat of the water if the purification process included sterilizing the water instead of just filtering out particulate matter... but in that case, the water sieve should remove germs which currently does not happen. On a different topic, but related, I would ask the devs (who I know rarely respond in the forums) exactly how they expect us to remove heat now? The reasonable conclusion is that all fixed output temperature machines will be removed to get rid of heat deletion. This includes things like the CO2 scrubber (which I understand still does it, but I have not tested it myself.) But logically, it will need extend to everything. I have heard people suggest that you can delete heat by transferring it to hydrogen or to oil/petroleum than have that hot matter removed by converting it to power. Even that will eventually need to be removed, because realistically, that heat will be transferred to the machines or the surrounding air/water in the process. While this may work today, what about tomorrow? How do you prevent the inevitable heat death now of an early base? Especially since you can not rely on having Wheezeworts available and they have recently been hit with a nerf hammer as well. (In some colonies I created, it seem like forever before I even found a wheezwort due to RNG.) It also seems that in the most recent builds that the size of the temperate starting area has shrunk meaning that you now have to crack into a warmer biome sooner rather than later, and there are a lot more hot biomes than there are cold ones. (If the asteroid even has cold biomes, or enough close to you.) It takes a lot of effort and research to get to insulated tiles so that I can keep my base separated from outside temperatures. And once the home area heats up, it takes significant effort to move that heat outside the base, assuming that I live long enough to harvest crops that haven't withered and research that. An early game solution for heat is needed. Especially one that does not require RNG for finding any type of cold geyser or lucking across some wheezworts that you are lucky to find not hidden behind hardened rock that you do need to have an senior level miner to access. What was the point of adding the new molten world if no one is going to be able to actually survive there? I know that it is supposed to be difficult... but being difficult is a lot different than being impossible. Now, it seems like right now on the forums there are two camps... people that are thrilled about the removal of fixed output temperatures and those that are opposed to it. Personally I could have been happy either way... but in light of the removal combined with the nerf of wheezworts, and the smaller starting temperate area, ONI just does not seem like a fun game to me anymore. I have never been just a casual player with over 1000 hours on steam, but I have also never been a hardcore realistic physics or else either. I do have a solution that probably is not to difficult to implement if you are willing... Add a new "Hardcore Mode". Just like "Survival" or "No Sweat." Let it have the new features that the one group has been calling for... and dial back some of the recent nerfs to the survival mode. I don not want to have to play in no sweat, yet I want to have fun and not have to restart a dozen times just to find a cool slush vent in order to survive. Allow me to continue to play the game I have enjoyed over the last 18months+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixbySix Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 See dead horse....beat it again and again and again,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambaire Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 What about the temperature of the sand? It should incorporate that, right? I agree that fixed temperature outputs is bad design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stretch611 Posted July 5, 2019 Author Share Posted July 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, Ambaire said: What about the temperature of the sand? It should incorporate that, right? I agree that fixed temperature outputs is bad design. I was considering the sand when I said filtration medium. I left it open ended for later if regolith is ever used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixbySix Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 problem with incorporating the filtration medium is no way to choose a certain temp sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaRat Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 3 hours ago, stretch611 said: How do you prevent the inevitable heat death now of an early base? Especially since you can not rely on having Wheezeworts available Umm.... I dont cool my base I just let it get hotter and not deal with it because I'm lazy and it fixes its self from me being stupid aka building up pressure in the cold biomes by accident not notice and destroy the door to replace not realizing I haven't been making oxygen flow throughout the base just letting it build up their for the last 5 cycles and boom I now have a really cold base and some stressful duplicates ( dont use this as advice all my duplicates died after I used a space heater in their room they sleep in ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONIfreak Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Watsr sieve is nothing more than mechanical filter. 1st of all there should be more requirements ( at least sand and coal) to make it efficient. 2nd - it should not change temperature ( unles any of ingredients has higher temp which should work like : sand temp ( lest sau 20) coal ( lest say 40) sieve temp ( lets say 10) = 20% of each mat plus 60% of water sieve = 4+8+6 = 18 degree. So if water is hotter it will actually remove heat to even this out ( and when it is cold put it up). Therefore temp of every material counts and it is more realistic in the setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snotfroth Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 As a noob, I always assumed water would come out of the sieve hotter than it went in, because some energy is used to force it through the filtration medium. Also still as a noob, I'm now playing whatever that asteroid which is devoid of cold biomes and filled in 70c sand and sandstone. Apparently there are wheezewort seeds buried in hot sand because I have about 8 of them now. Those along with the ice-e fan and ice maker have gotten me to cycle 270. I think the devs made the right move with the sieve. It shouldn't be a cooling device. Heat management as it is now still seems fairly easy. I think the Ice-e fan should delete heat though, considering it is hand-cranked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radam Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Water sieve only adds 4kdtu. Temperature difference of the water is only from receiving that heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobucles Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Nice necro. Thread's a bit dated, yo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 In a broader sense the clamped minimum temperature of some buildings (and clamped maximum of other buildings) is only a cursory improvement over the previous fixed temperatures. The output temperature should be equal to the average temperature of the constituent parts. The building itself should not add or subtract anything at all to the outputs. Not even a small amount. Any heat the internal processing might add or subtract should be added to the building itself, not the output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xialeth Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 40 minutes ago, Saturnus said: Any heat the internal processing might add or subtract should be added to the building itself, not the output. Just to clarify, because I'm not sure what you mean regarding the interaction of the building and its inputs/outputs: The building temperature should influence the inputs/outputs, right? Because if the machine gets hot (--and hot inside, which might not necessarily be noticeable outside) it would heat up (and vice versa for cooling it down) the stuff going through it, wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 30 minutes ago, xialeth said: Just to clarify, because I'm not sure what you mean regarding the interaction of the building and its inputs/outputs: The building temperature should influence the inputs/outputs, right? Because if the machine gets hot (--and hot inside, which might not necessarily be noticeable outside) it would heat up (and vice versa for cooling it down) the stuff going through it, wouldn't it? No, I literally mean that any heating caused by the machine itself should not affect outputs at all but only heat up the building itself, just like thermo-regulators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpy Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Leave water sieves alone I like them now the most! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightinggale Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 8 hours ago, ONIfreak said: it should not change temperature ( unles any of ingredients has higher temp which should work like : sand temp ( lest sau 20) coal ( lest say 40) sieve temp ( lets say 10) = 20% of each mat plus 60% of water sieve = 4+8+6 = 18 degree. So if water is hotter it will actually remove heat to even this out ( and when it is cold put it up). Therefore temp of every material counts and it is more realistic in the setup. That's the idea in how it works now. Specifically it's weighted arithmetric mean where the weight is mass*specific thermal capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trego Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 5 hours ago, Saturnus said: No, I literally mean that any heating caused by the machine itself should not affect outputs at all but only heat up the building itself, just like thermo-regulators. The sieve is a very confusing building at the moment. Back when it was a water purifier the 40 C output temperature seemed to have been chosen due to the fact that biological purification(probably the most significant part in treating human wastewater) has an important inflection point at 35-40C between mesophilic and thermophilic bacterial growth ranges. Now that the name has been changed to water sieve, the temperature requirement has lost its foundation, as far as I can tell. I take it that if you want buildings to not change the output temperature, that factors such as the bacterial growth ranges above should implemented as intake/input requirements instead, in your opinion? (assuming that they are implemented at all) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONIfreak Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Nightinggale said: That's the idea in how it works now. Specifically it's weighted arithmetric mean where the weight is mass*specific thermal capacity. Ah good, didn't know. So it is correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilalaunekuh Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 6 hours ago, Saturnus said: The output temperature should be equal to the average temperature of the constituent parts. The building itself should not add or subtract anything at all to the outputs. Not even a small amount. Any heat the internal processing might add or subtract should be added to the building itself, not the output. Yeah, that would be my prefered implementation aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andz Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Just use the dynamic output temperature mod. I didn't check all modified buildings, but most things work. It's so much more fun. Especially because boulders can destroy the magma abyssalite border, every bit of more control helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logicsol Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Yeah, this was my complaint about the new sieve behavior at first, but they've tweaked it to a place I'm quite happy with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andz Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 48 minutes ago, Logicsol said: Yeah, this was my complaint about the new sieve behavior at first, but they've tweaked it to a place I'm quite happy with. How did they tweak it? Isn't it still 40+? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightinggale Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Andz said: How did they tweak it? Isn't it still 40+? It's now "heated" to 0 K if input is below that temperature. In other words output temperature = input temperature. It is however a weighted mean value between water and sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, Andz said: How did they tweak it? Isn't it still 40+? Yes. It is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satyrical364 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 17 minutes ago, Saturnus said: 26 minutes ago, Andz said: How did they tweak it? Isn't it still 40+? Yes. It is. Uh... no it isn't. They changed it to be the combined temperature (weighted arithmetic mean apparently) of the input materials, sand and water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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