A Proper Discussion of Willow's Rework, and why it has no Impact Whatsoever

[Spep]

1 hour ago, Mobbstar said:

MrMulk convinced me on the Island Adventures Discord chat that Inventory Burning would be a neat ability to add back. Also, it makes Abigail even less unique and useful, so I am completely on-board with it! Just give it a visual FX (and if Willow gets total fire immunity, also give it a damage cap).

Maybe let Willow pick up burning items? That'd either make her a much better "firefighter", or make Inventory Burning easier to implement.

Also, just pitching an idea here, what if Willow has fire immunity, but takes damage from overheating instead?

EDIT: Before I forget: Remember to give Klei some respect, everyone. They literally said they'll change the perks some more before releasing the update. <3

EDIT2: Why no, I didn't read most of the thread, just the original post and some highlighted ones.

i could not resist.

face is blurry, could not for the life of me find a transparent that was not.

 

[axxel]

I am quite happy to read that Willow got her perks from the events. I am afraid she cannot properly use her main perk, fire immunity/resistance, for more instances than approaching a burning enemy and provide anything significant useful to the team. See, Winona can bring some pretty cool tools (light, dps). I think Bernie is supposed to be a crowd control tool. But we have tooth traps and normal traps for hounds and frogs for this. I think he would be only useful for trash mobs which are being usually utilized by raid bosses. (not counting varg).

The rework provides only a Willow who can explore the world more easier (it's a good thing). But in winter it'll become a "noob" trap and new players using Willow will get more problems (well it depends on Bernies insulation and sanity gen).

Now, using flames and her fire resistance in a fight has problems and I think fighting mobs is done better in the normal way because ashes. However, if I had to I'd rather using burning items on the ground than burning enemies because it won't end into chaos. 

Match sticks: I suppose Willow's sanity gain will still depend on the number of flames? Console users can drop items individually on the ground and ignite them for a massive sanity boost. Having a match box to drop single flame for every use will help her to get out of freezing and sanity problems.

I already said it in the Willow Rework thread. A fire rework and/or more fire related content would be nice. Rised mob HP, regrowth and more resources scaled with DST because it's multiplayer but not every enviromental treat. Fire spreading was already nerfed and worlds are overgrown with numerous trees only a Maxwell can reduce - something outside of lightnings and wild fires should burn forests and grassland so the regrowth mechanic has something to do and Willow can fight it. Dragoons from SW are a good example of such a treat.

[Gagarin-ace]

why people talk about willow? i missed some information from klei?

[minespatch]

Just now, Gagarin-ace said:

why people talk about willow? i missed some information from klei?

Her update is next month.

[Gagarin-ace]

1 minute ago, minespatch said:

Her update is next month.

do u have some links?

[minespatch]

Just now, Gagarin-ace said:

do u have some links?

 

[Mr.Mulk]

5 hours ago, axxel said:

I am quite happy to read that Willow got her perks from the events. I am afraid she cannot properly use her main perk, fire immunity/resistance, for more instances than approaching a burning enemy and provide anything significant useful to the team. See, Winona can bring some pretty cool tools (light, dps). I think Bernie is supposed to be a crowd control tool. But we have tooth traps and normal traps for hounds and frogs for this. I think he would be only useful for trash mobs which are being usually utilized by raid bosses. (not counting varg).

It's why I suggested the addition of inventory burning, properly balanced for multiplayer with animations and effects, in order to give Willow a unique role as an AoE combat character. The perk also requires fire immunity, so it'd be a piece in that.

[axxel]

7 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

It's why I suggested the addition of inventory burning, properly balanced for multiplayer with animations and effects, in order to give Willow a unique role as an AoE combat character. The perk also requires fire immunity, so it'd be a piece in that.

I tried to see it from the reworked Willow perspective. I doubt Klei will bring inventory burning back ;( (I agree on your post). You rised the question: Was Willow ever a combat character? In Secret she was one in DS. Is combat and killing creatures important in DST? Yes, it gives resources or protection for everyone. Are survival perks important in DST? Not to much but it can save some resources other teammates can use. And then there are resource perks but it's a different story and I don't see Willow as a decent NF farmer. Now we have an old DST-Willow who mainly struggles with insanity and earlier freezing in Winter and Spring and will have a reworked Willow with a more hurting freezing perk and a bear which full potencial is only aviable if Willow is insane.

For me it's not playing an interesting character with cool perks every team like to have around. I fear she'll just become DST-Willow 2.0. Her perks are about struggling in the negative extremes and mild sunbathing in the positives. In my eyes Klei tries to balance between her good and bad sides with the opposite things - while it's not wrong it's looks bad on the paper because Willow has to overcome her bad perks by herself with her personal items before she can do something for herself and the team and I think Klei wastes "perk slots" here. Same with beefy Bernie: She has to be insane to get buff Bernie - she still got more enemies. Now we have to wait to test Willow, it depends how many Bernies could be crafted or how much warmth and sanity Bernie can give. Maybe I revise my opinion after testing or after a Reworked-Willow-rework or if she got a strong ability like inventory burning I'd accept these more annoying changes as a more meaningful balance (good fighter-bad survivalist). Maybe we have to wait more the beta content and some characters can be utitlize in new ways.

 

[Mr.Mulk]

38 minutes ago, axxel said:

For me it's not playing an interesting character with cool perks every team like to have around. I fear she'll just become DST-Willow 2.0. Her perks are about struggling in the negative extremes and mild sunbathing in the positives. In my eyes Klei tries to balance between her good and bad sides with the opposite things - while it's not wrong it's looks bad on the paper because Willow has to overcome her bad perks by herself with her personal items before she can do something for herself and the team and I think Klei wastes "perk slots" here. Same with beefy Bernie: She has to be insane to get buff Bernie - she still got more enemies. Now we have to wait to test Willow, it depends how many Bernies could be crafted or how much warmth and sanity Bernie can give. Maybe I revise my opinion after testing or after a Reworked-Willow-rework or if she got a strong ability like inventory burning I'd accept these more annoying changes as a more meaningful balance (good fighter-bad survivalist). Maybe we have to wait more the beta content and some characters can be utitlize in new ways.

 

Yeah that's the primary issue is that this "rework" really only shifts her around, it doesn't really provide the buff the community has been requesting for 3 years now. Willow in DST from her current state genuinely does need a buff, and the ideas we've had listed to us by Klei don't really fit the bill to make an interesting and fun character, they're just seemingly tacked-on resistances/weaknesses/abilities with maybe something interesting with Bernie
Personally I just used inventory burning as an example of the "shock niche" that makes Willow fun in DS. It's something that benefited all skill levels of players, and gave Willow a unique fighting style. I'm not even saying in a proper rework Willow would need this ability, just something on the same level as inventory burning in terms of its "shock niche" value.

[axxel]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

Yeah that's the primary issue is that this "rework" really only shifts her around, it doesn't really provide the buff the community has been requesting for 3 years now. Willow in DST from her current state genuinely does need a buff, and the ideas we've had listed to us by Klei don't really fit the bill to make an interesting and fun character, they're just seemingly tacked-on resistances/weaknesses/abilities with maybe something interesting with Bernie
Personally I just used inventory burning as an example of the "shock niche" that makes Willow fun in DS. It's something that benefited all skill levels of players, and gave Willow a unique fighting style. I'm not even saying in a proper rework Willow would need this ability, just something on the same level as inventory burning in terms of its "shock niche" value.

Ok, I would agree on Willow's changes if she has a "shock niche" (what's that?). If she hasn't any further changes she, as you stated, is a shifting in her playstyle. I can live with that. If inventory burning isn't an option to utilize fire immunity how about these ideas

• increased hitting damage on burning enemies 
• burning damage depends on how near Willow is
• deal damage through items (there is currently no difference in damage/time between burning 1 log and a full stack of logs) 
• deal damage and panic through putting multiple flames on the ground (e.g. my match box idea - it'd simulates the old Willow behaviour by spawning a fire under her feet with no need to light an item and can be used several times)
• increased damage of torch, lighter, fire staff etc. (boring I guess)

[Mr.Mulk]

19 minutes ago, axxel said:

Ok, I would agree on Willow's changes if she has a "shock niche" (what's that?). If she hasn't any further changes she, as you stated, is a shifting in her playstyle. I can live with that. If inventory burning isn't an option to utilize fire immunity how about these ideas

• increased hitting damage on burning enemies 
• burning damage depends on how near Willow is
• deal damage through items (there is currently no difference in damage/time between burning 1 log and a full stack of logs) 
• deal damage and panic through putting multiple flames on the ground (e.g. my match box idea - it'd simulates the old Willow behaviour by spawning a fire under her feet with no need to light an item and can be used several times)
• increased damage of torch, lighter, fire staff etc. (boring I guess)

What I mean by "shock niche" is that Willow in DS has a relatively unknown ability that gives her a unique and interesting combat style, that once you learn you understand why singleplayer Willow is awesome.
Also it's nice to hear some ideas built off of it, cool.

[Cawub]

Completely agree. Most of her new perks are pretty much just small tweaks. There's hardly anything new here, just bernie's ability to fight shadow monsters now and the longer lasting fuel, which neither sound very interesting or very helpful. It would be pretty neat to see fire immunity and inventory burning come back(Inventory burning's gotta come back with a cool animation or something). Although, I don't really care if the lighter had infinite durability or not. 

[Mr.Mulk]

6 minutes ago, ZomBKiller said:

 Although, I don't really care if the lighter had infinite durability or not. 

Yeah I'm willing to compromise on most things, really just the big two for me is fire immunity and inventory burning (properly adjusted for multiplayer). Besides really those two things I'm completely open to tweaks with everything else. The reason I would like to see them implemented is because they play out really well into making DS Willow an interesting and fun character to play. More importantly it varies the combat system some, which is always a welcome change. I understand to an extent this is subjective, but there's no denying that varying up the combat system is normally welcomed.

An interesting idea (not mine, credits go to Revior from discord), was that fire immunity would become a thing when inventory burning, and the rest of the time she'd have the usual resistance. I do have some mixed feelings about this, but it does go to show even in seemingly simple perks there is room for unique alternatives and ideas.

[-Variant]

On 4/26/2019 at 12:31 AM, Canis said:

Hol' up.

...What are those trees?

The original Jungle Trees in Hamlet.

From the first ever Hamlet trailer, their cut counterpart is still in the files, a green one.

Those were meant to be in place of the pink ones we've got now.

[SouthTom]

12 hours ago, ZomBKiller said:

There's hardly anything new here, just bernie's ability to fight shadow monsters now

Bernie won't be able to fight shadow monsters. They said most hostile mobs, but they stated that it doesn't change for shadow creatures.

[Mr.Mulk]

16 hours ago, SouthTom said:

Bernie won't be able to fight shadow monsters. They said most hostile mobs, but they stated that it doesn't change for shadow creatures.

Bernie is arguably potentially the best part of the rework, and the only part in my opinion which has some level of being interesting. I have nothing against the bear, I was just hoping the rework would focus on Willow herself to make an interesting and solid character as a foundation to play and not so much reliant upon character items. I'm completely fine with Bernie buffs, but I'd like them alongside reworking Willow to be fun as well in the process.
 

[NoscopeFelix]

Welp let’s just hope we can use this to make a bear army, THAT would be fun (at least in my opinion)

[Nikki Darks]

I just want to point out, that all of these changes they added to Willow's "refresh" are from 3 Willow mods on the workshop, so it's not even creative. You can literally find ALL of these changes in 3 Willow mods. qx q

[-Variant]

2 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

I just want to point out, that all of these changes they added to Willow's "refresh" are from 3 Willow mods on the workshop, so it's not even creative. You can literally find ALL of these changes in 3 Willow mods. qx q

Which ones would these be by chance?

I'm actually curious on how well they were pulled off, and would like to see the Bernie holding in action.

[Nikki Darks]

Just now, Angel_Octoling said:

Which ones would these be by chance?

I'm actually curious on how well they were pulled off, and would like to see the Bernie holding in action.

Do you mean which mods, or which perks?

 

[-Variant]

1 hour ago, Nikki Darks said:

Do you mean which mods, or which perks?

 

Mods please.

[Nikki Darks]

Just now, Angel_Octoling said:

Mods please.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1632782735&searchtext=willow

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1457263794&searchtext=willow

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1461651270&searchtext=willow

 

I think one of these removed the "more damage from freezing". Might be the first one.

[-Variant]

1 hour ago, Nikki Darks said:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1632782735&searchtext=willow

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1457263794&searchtext=willow

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1461651270&searchtext=willow

 

I think one of these removed the "more damage from freezing". Might be the first one.

Brilliant! Thank you.

[Nikki Darks]

Just now, Angel_Octoling said:

Brilliant! Thank you.

Np! <3

 

[_Ellat_]

All characters should be balanced not worse not better but equaly rewarding we don't want people running around the world playing only one character right (wigfrid)