New Ice maker heat deletion

[Z0366]

Just done a test. I have made a 50kg ice from 20oC water in a vacuum environment with all structures made from insulation. The 20oC copper ice maker machine went to 48oC as the heat has no where to go.

So, heat generated is 28K*0.386*100kg=1080kDTU

However, the cooling is

-40K*4*50kg=-8000kDTU.

This is way too overpowered (as powerful as 17 wheezeworts in hydrogen). Given all that is consumed is 120W*40 seconds? (I did not time it) and a one time dupe delivery (the ice just drop on the ground and can be easily automated to drop back to the pool once in a while (or not).

It is of course not a long term solution but It makes the initial stress of finding a cold slush or ice biome irrelevant.

Am I doing something wrong or missed a point somewhere?

[KittenIsAGeek]

The ice-maker deletes heat, yes.  But those numbers seem like they're pre-adjustment.  What build are you running?

[chemie]

8 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

The ice-maker deletes heat, yes.  But those numbers seem like they're pre-adjustment.  What build are you running?

brothgar reported more than 2000,000 dtu cooling (40 weeze I think) before adjustment but maybe they adjusted more than once.  I would love to know what the capacity is as it sounds like one ice machine could easily do all your base cooling for o2 and berry,wheat water

[FiannaTiger]

12 minutes ago, chemie said:

brothgar reported more than 2000,000 dtu cooling (40 weeze I think) before adjustment but maybe they adjusted more than once.  I would love to know what the capacity is as it sounds like one ice machine could easily do all your base cooling for o2 and berry,wheat water

I think Brothgar was using the build that would take any temp water down to -20oC for the same time/power usage.  They since adjusted the ice maker to take more time/power/heat generation to cool the water down. 

[KittenIsAGeek]

Ah, that's right.  The numbers were hugely different.

To answer your question: Yes, the ice maker is intended to delete heat to aid with base cooling.  It, in combination with the Ice-E fan are intended as a replacement to the Hydro-Fan, giving a method that actually works.  They may still be tweaking the numbers.  IDK.

[suicide commando]

I find the Ice-E fan rather useless still, as it produces far less cooling than just heating up the ice naturally. Of course with 'naturally' I mean, use an auto sweeper and a loader, and send it through the steam geyser and hot water, then ending in an ore dropper. By the time it reaches the end of the rail the ice will have melted and the water joined the hot pool. It works very well to cool down steam geysers.

 

[Z0366]

1 hour ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

The ice-maker deletes heat, yes.  But those numbers seem like they're pre-adjustment.  What build are you running?

I tested it on the current stable build. So it is how it works right now.

1 hour ago, FiannaTiger said:

I think Brothgar was using the build that would take any temp water down to -20oC for the same time/power usage.  They since adjusted the ice maker to take more time/power/heat generation to cool the water down. 

It does take longer maybe, but the time taken is still relatively short. I cooled water from 20 to -20 in less than 1/10th day. The reason that is is OP is not because it has any potential to be exploited, but it makes one big issue of the initial game, temperature management completely irrelevant. If a newbie joins the game now, he might not ever realize that there is such an issue called water temperature management.

[hackcasual]

1 hour ago, suicide commando said:

I find the Ice-E fan rather useless still, as it produces far less cooling than just heating up the ice naturally. Of course with 'naturally' I mean, use an auto sweeper and a loader, and send it through the steam geyser and hot water, then ending in an ore dropper. By the time it reaches the end of the rail the ice will have melted and the water joined the hot pool. It works very well to cool down steam geysers.

 

You can just end the conveyor rail in a bridge loop.

[FiannaTiger]

Yes I believe that it will make things easier to manage.  I think I tried to use the ice machine to dump ice into the water from my two cool steam vents and it didn't seem to make much of a difference.  I will check it out tonight though.

@Z0366

[Zarquan]

1 hour ago, suicide commando said:

I find the Ice-E fan rather useless still, as it produces far less cooling than just heating up the ice naturally. Of course with 'naturally' I mean, use an auto sweeper and a loader, and send it through the steam geyser and hot water, then ending in an ore dropper. By the time it reaches the end of the rail the ice will have melted and the water joined the hot pool. It works very well to cool down steam geysers.

 

I thought they changed that.  Now it adds heat to the ice until it melts, then releases a bottle.

[Z0366]

Just now, Zarquan said:

I thought they changed that.  Now it adds heat to the ice until it melts, then releases a bottle.

Yep, it releases a bottle.

[Zarquan]

8 minutes ago, Z0366 said:

Yep, it releases a bottle.

The bottle thing was to note another difference because before the change it didn't drop a bottle.  I believe they engineered it so that it is just an accelerated ice melter, which can be nice to have.  I will probably use them to cool rooms in the oil biome that I want to be comfortable quickly, or for some spot cooling in the early mid game.  I haven't had a chance to mess around with it since it was changed, but I was under the impression they fixed it.

2 hours ago, Z0366 said:

-40K*4*50kg=-8000kDTU.

This math isn't quite right.  Keep in mind that ice has a heat capacity of around 2 instead of 4.

[Z0366]

15 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

The bottle thing was to note another difference because before the change it didn't drop a bottle.  I believe they engineered it so that it is just an accelerated ice melter, which can be nice to have.  I will probably use them to cool rooms in the oil biome that I want to be comfortable quickly, or for some spot cooling in the early mid game.  I haven't had a chance to mess around with it since it was changed, but I was under the impression they fixed it.

This math isn't quite right.  Keep in mind that ice has a heat capacity of around 2 instead of 4.

Thanks for the notice. You are right. So it is about 6000kDTU. If you would consider the whole cycle 20oC water ->ice maker-> -20oC ice, then melt back to 20oC water, then the amount of heat deleted is 5000kDTU.  It is rather interesting that Klei decided to get rid of latent heat of phase shift but kept the original heat capacity, resulted in the violation of energy conservation.

[Zarquan]

3 minutes ago, Z0366 said:

Thanks for the notice. You are right. So it is about 6000kDTU. If you would consider the whole cycle 20oC water ->ice maker-> -20oC ice, then melt back to 20oC water, then the amount of heat deleted is 5000kDTU.  It is rather interesting that Klei decided to get rid of latent heat of phase shift but kept the original heat capacity, resulted in the violation of energy conservation.

In a way, they kept a primitive form of latent heat.  When the ice solidifies, it gains some temperature.  I believe it is around 5C, which has a similar but smaller effect.

[Junksteel]

Someone mentioned before that turning water into ice through ice machine would be water positive. Anyone can confirm that already?

[Z0366]

1 minute ago, Junksteel said:

Someone mentioned before that turning water into ice through ice machine would be water positive. Anyone can confirm that already?

It is due to the bug that sometimes material double the amount when it melts. I have not tested and not observed it in the current version.

[SakuraKoi]

So, to bring some chaos to the order I tested just a few minutes ago:

Cooling 50 kg of 22,3°C Water

To -20°C (no bump or whatever when it become ice)

Time measured: Around 68s*

Ice Machine Heat Production 4,5 kDTU/s

Ice machine total heat Production 306 KDTU

Heat removed (22,9*4,179+19,4*2,05)*50.000=>6.773.455 DTU=> 6773,455 kDTU (-306 and /68=95,19 kDTU/s)

Ratio: 1/22,14=>~1/20

 

Result: The Ice Machine deletes 20 times the DTU it produces, at around 95k DTU/s.

Comparison: AETN deleted 80 kDTU/s (-15 kDTU/s), Wheezwort deletes 12 kDTU/s when in hydrogen (i.e one needs about 8 of 'em) and the Steam Turbine... pretty sure it is way beyond any of that even with the lowest temperature steam.

Mai's Suggestion: Quarter the efficiency to effectively ~-25 kDTU/s, it will still be a very worthwhile building due to the ice being more portable. This will also not make dupes run to it like 3-4 times a cycle with hotter water.

 

*I totally acknowledge that inaccuracy which I don't think to be too much off, if at all, but if one intends to get better numbers, use hotter water, and a proper stop watch, as well as as well as a dense Chlorine room at the median-average temperature between intake and -20°C

[FiannaTiger]

Well that's a lot of cooling, so taking the 67-82oC water that's from my 2 cool steam vents and making ice to drop back in may not be a bad investment of time..

[Gus Smedstad]

For reference, since you mentioned the new steam turbine but didn't have numbers:

At 195 C: 835 kDTU/s.

At 125 C: 250 kDTU/s.

Assuming all 5 ports open and 2kg/s of steam. Which isn't a lot now that you don't have to move the output steam, just the condensed water.

 

[Gurgel]

I think I like this. ATEN and WWs as only cooling source were forcing specific ways of cooling for hot steam vents and thereby limiting the game. Now there is a viable alternative that uses dupe power. As you need to either use an Ice-E fan (with attached dupe) or ice temp-shift plates (manually) for cooling to happen with any useful speed, I do not think the current parameters are overpowered at all. 

[Z0366]

3 hours ago, Gurgel said:

I think I like this. ATEN and WWs as only cooling source were forcing specific ways of cooling for hot steam vents and thereby limiting the game. Now there is a viable alternative that uses dupe power. As you need to either use an Ice-E fan (with attached dupe) or ice temp-shift plates (manually) for cooling to happen with any useful speed, I do not think the current parameters are overpowered at all. 

I am happy that it is heat deletion, but it does so too over powered. I have set a dupe to sleep next to it and operate the ice maker and hammster wheel only. So he is constantly produce power and occasionally use the ice maker. You dont realize how efficient this ice maker is unless you dedicate a dupe to it. It can cool probably several steam cooler with no problem. Just build a tempshift plate (even just with granite) and leave some water to interact with the ice, it is extremely powerful. To be honest, to get 3 wheezewort, you need to venture far into the world or even later with a rocket, but to operate the ice maker, all that is needed is a jobless dupe and he can constantly generate power too, and some lice loaf will keep him happy already.

6 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

For reference, since you mentioned the new steam turbine but didn't have numbers:

At 195 C: 835 kDTU/s.

At 125 C: 250 kDTU/s.

Assuming all 5 ports open and 2kg/s of steam. Which isn't a lot now that you don't have to move the output steam, just the condensed water.

Yeah but you cannot use that to cool your base. Heat management used to be a big deal for a starting base, especially for newbies. It forces the player to venture into the world for cold slush or ice biome, especially if the world gen puts a steam geyser close to your base. But now with this easily researched machine, it is so easy to maintain the temperature even for a newbie. I have set a dupe to sleep next to it and operate the ice maker and hammster wheel only. So he is constantly produce power and occasionally use the ice maker. You dont realize how efficient this ice maker is unless you dedicate a dupe to it. It can cool probably several steam cooler with no problem. Just build a tempshift plate (even just with granite) and leave some water to interact with the ice, it is extremely powerful. To be honest, to get 3 wheezewort, you need to venture far into the world or even later with a rocket, but to operate the ice maker, all that is needed is a jobless dupe and he can constantly generate power too, and some lice loaf will keep him happy already.  Of course later on I will find cold slush geyser or use other means such as aquatuner + water sieve. But this ice maker is too easy to operate with minimal set up required. I think it should be nerfed.

11

 

[Yunru]

16 minutes ago, Z0366 said:

You dont realize how efficient this ice maker is unless you dedicate a dupe to it.

Sure, but a lot of things are really efficient if you "just" dedicate all of a dupe's time to it.

Like Oxygen production. Or Polluted Water conversion.

[Z0366]

Just now, Yunru said:

Sure, but a lot of things are really efficient if you "just" dedicate all of a dupe's time to it.

Like Oxygen production. Or Polluted Water conversion.

Yeah, but other problems have better "alternative". While for cooling, this is much powerful than other solutions in older version. By saying dedication, I really meant I dedicated a dupe to do power generation, and only operate the ice maker once in a while. I dedicated the power person to do it so that travel time is minimized.

[Gus Smedstad]

54 minutes ago, Z0366 said:

Yeah but you cannot use that to cool your base.

Actually, you can. You just run some fluid through a pipe, cool it with an aquatuner, and then use the aquatuner to generate steam. You run radiant pipe wherever you need cooling, and presto, you're cooling your base with a steam turbine. It's a design pattern I've used several times to cool large sections of my colony.

If you've got steel and turbine tech, turbines are really your go-to cooling solution for just about anything. Wheezeworts, AETNs, etc are stopgaps for earlier in the game.

[beowulf2010]

5 minutes ago, Gus Smedstad said:

Actually, you can. You just run some fluid through a pipe, cool it with an aquatuner, and then use the aquatuner to generate steam. You run radiant pipe wherever you need cooling, and presto, you're cooling your base with a steam turbine. It's a design pattern I've used several times to cool large sections of my colony.

If you've got steel and turbine tech, turbines are really your go-to cooling solution for just about anything. Wheezeworts, AETNs, etc are stopgaps for earlier in the game.

The best part of this (for me) is that the steam turbine covers a big part of the electricity cost of the aquatuner.