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Gas packets inconsistency/black magic


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I built this electrolyzer block in my base.

electrolyzer1.thumb.jpg.e8c5b5ee232b4fc2c26cb4d14cb41bb3.jpg

Electrolyzer2.jpg.9b1bc2797de0d8760b71e0cdaa069c38.jpg

However, I'm noticing that gas behaviour is not consistent. Occasionally an oxygen packet manages to slip through into the hydrogen line and I don't understand why. The lines are never backed up and there are no brownouts, so why? Is an element sensor or gas shutoff failing?

Also, this should generate 1776 g/s of oxygen and 224 g/s of hydrogen, but it simply doesnt. It generates way more hydrogen than it should, enough to keep 3 hydrogen generators running full time and a fourth one intermittently: that's about 50% more hydrogen than expected. I also suspect that it generates a bit less oxygen than it should, since every now and then there is a hole in one of the oxygen lines, even if a packet didnt slip through. Or maybe, it sometimes generates too much oxygen and exceeds the line capacity, so a packet goes in the hydrogen line?

What is this black magic? Is it the electrolyzer room layout? Some quirk with how piping works? Gas deletion or substitution? I'm at a loss here.

 

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Regarding electrolyzer chamber layout - this post might be insightful ;)

Regarding slipped oxygen packets - your pipes with filtered oxygen are too short. Packets doesn't have enough room to merge, so sometimes one could slip to hydrogen line.

Here is mine implementation of this elecrolyzer layout:

Spoiler

?imw=2048&imh=1152&ima=fit&impolicy=Lett

It is a "one, ugly motherf***er", but it has never let any wrong packet to slip, because pipes are long enough to give packets a room to merge.

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6 hours ago, 6Havok9 said:

However, I'm noticing that gas behaviour is not consistent. Occasionally an oxygen packet manages to slip through into the hydrogen line and I don't understand why. The lines are never backed up and there are no brownouts, so why? Is an element sensor or gas shutoff failing?

Probably down to save/load i'd hazard a guess - automation is momentarily borked upon load. It's why I never use gas shutoffs for clean systems, they're not 100% reliable on game state change.

In terms of electrolyzer output ratios, as others have mentioned it's well documented already that the output tiles can be kept under pressure to give a larger output depending on pump placement/ratio.

Go with it if you want hydrogen, or remove a pump if you don't ;) 

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It happens when your valve for any reason does not accept the oxygen as example when its blocked.

My suggestion for this is use the regular gasfilter and use the patches.dll from my mod which reduces the power requirement for the filter to 10W.

Otherwise make sure nothing EVER get blocked from flowing constantly.

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1 hour ago, Rainbowdesign said:

My suggestion for this is use the regular gasfilter and use the patches.dll from my mod which reduces the power requirement for the filter to 10W.

Why stop at reducing the power cost? Why not make coal gens output 20kw whilst we're at it :D 

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4 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

Why stop at reducing the power cost? Why not make coal gens output 20kw whilst we're at it :D 

Because the filter's power cost is total BS, and forces you to build these instead, that take up way more space but are completely free in terms of electricity:

image.png.d47f874d7468a73a22864db16f6cc1d3.png

But as far as the OP's problem is concerned, @Rainbowdesign is correct. If you're going to use shutoffs like that, it's only a matter of time before you get the wrong gas in the wrong pipe. You either put your sensors and shutoffs on a loop, or you make 100% sure that none of your outputs block, ever. Which is just unrealistic unless you're venting both gases to space. :p

 

 

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1 minute ago, biopon said:

Because the filter's power cost is total BS

I suppose that's down to each persons opinion really. To me I see 120w as a tiny price to pay for guaranteed 1kg/s fail-proof gas filtration.. 

I mean since when has power been a concern really? 

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16 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:
1 hour ago, Rainbowdesign said:

 

Why stop at reducing the power cost? Why not make coal gens output 20kw whilst we're at it :D 

I am working at a steam plant with 10kw power output thx. The idea of that one also is to make sure you have enough power for the automatic refinerys (which use 2kw) i will introduce.

 

And yes about the filter i dislike the idea to have to use more complicated valve filters just because the cost of the filter is too high in terms of electricity.

For me the power demand of 120w for a filter is a design flaw its unbalanced making the filter too weak. Why should it use 12 times as much power as a valve filter just to make certain you filter properly?

2 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

I mean since when has power been a concern really? 

Have you ever tried to play on the rock?

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Just now, Lifegrow said:

I mean since when has power been a concern really? 

Early game, when you're building your first electrolyzers?

And that gadget I've put there is also guaranteed and foolproof, it just takes refined metal and wires and space and time. But 0 power.

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45 minutes ago, Rainbowdesign said:

For me the power demand of 120w for a filter is a design flaw its unbalanced making the filter too weak. Why should it use 12 times as much power as a valve filter just to make certain you filter properly?

Theres no such thing as a valve filter - element sensors weren't designed to solely be used for filtration, so you're comparing apples and oranges honestly. The 120w cost of a standard gas filter is just fine - you're just comparing it to something which isn't a valid replacement.

46 minutes ago, biopon said:

Early game, when you're building your first electrolyzers?

And that gadget I've put there is also guaranteed and foolproof, it just takes refined metal and wires and space and time. But 0 power.

You mean early game when you have access to manual gens, coal gens and are about to supplement with hydrogen power? 120w is nothing.

I'm not trying to argue with you both, just stating that you seem to be comparing a sensors cost to a filters cost and demanding the filter come in line. What if the element sensor cost 60w, would that make you feel better ?

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1 hour ago, Lifegrow said:

You mean early game when you have access to manual gens, coal gens and are about to supplement with hydrogen power? 120w is nothing.

Just a small addition:

You can build power positive electrolyzer systems using just the 120w gas filters ;) (Without tune up)

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11 hours ago, 6Havok9 said:

Also, this should generate 1776 g/s of oxygen and 224 g/s of hydrogen, but it simply doesnt. It generates way more hydrogen than it should, enough to keep 3 hydrogen generators running full time and a fourth one intermittently: that's about 50% more hydrogen than expected. I also suspect that it generates a bit less oxygen than it should, since every now and then there is a hole in one of the oxygen lines, even if a packet didnt slip through. Or maybe, it sometimes generates too much oxygen and exceeds the line capacity, so a packet goes in the hydrogen line?

What is this black magic? Is it the electrolyzer room layout? Some quirk with how piping works? Gas deletion or substitution? I'm at a loss here.

 

In my builds, I have only gotten consistently correct oxygen/hydrogen percentages when I allow the gasses to separate naturally.  The easiest method, for me, has been to use two electrolyzers and 3 gas pumps.  My build takes up a bit of space, but it uses less power than a more compact design, guarantees a steady 1000g/s flow of oxygen, and always produces the correct ratios of gasses.  Here's a screenshot from when I was experimenting with liquid cooling using a slush geyser:

Spoiler

oxygen8.thumb.png.35a8e03453004a78e727509aa0f81e29.png

The top atmo sensor (currently off) kicks on at 800g hydrogen.  The atmo sensors for the two lower gas pumps are set to turn the pumps off if the pressure drops below 800g which only happens if the electrolyzers shut off.

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29 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

You can build power positive electrolyzer systems using just the 120w gas filters

Yeah, 2 pumps, 2 filters and the electrolyzer costs 840W to run, and the output is 112g H2, which is equivalent to 896W. (And that's without nudging the electrolyzer to produce potentially a lot more than 11.2% H2 from the water it's fed.) But having 0-cost filters means the system is 240W more energy positive. :) 

And you guys know that the 120w on the filters is a constant 120w. It's not the 1200w on the gantry that's once for 2 seconds every few cycles. It's not the 960w on the tube access points that's drawn for 10 seconds per use. Those suckers, especially on your SPOMS, gobble up more energy over time than most anything you ever build in the game - most buildings, even with very high nominal power cost, will end up using less in the long run.

But hey, I don't terribly mind putting down the shutoff-based filters to save energy. I would probably still do it even if actual filters only drew 10 instead of 120 watts. Where your line is drawn is obviously different, and that's fine.

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7 minutes ago, biopon said:
55 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

You can build power positive electrolyzer systems using just the 120w gas filters

Yeah, 2 pumps, 2 filters and the electrolyzer costs 840W to run, and the output is 112g H2, which is equivalent to 896W. (And that's without nudging the electrolyzer to produce potentially a lot more than 11.2% H2 from the water it's fed.) But having 0-cost filters means the system is 240W more energy positive. :) 

Not the build I am advertising.

2 pumps, 1 filter and the electrolyzer, with the right piping (lower input is merged using a pipe bridge to lower the priority) you get ~320kg oxygen out of this system.

=> Oxygen for more than 5 duplicants and access hydrogen to burn or just vent into space xD

(Less space but more power efficient with the right pipe prioritization. But I build it just to have a quick and dirty early oxygen supply, later in the game I use mostly 0-cost filters.^^)

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17 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

In my builds, I have only gotten consistently correct oxygen/hydrogen percentages when I allow the gasses to separate naturally.  The easiest method, for me, has been to use two electrolyzers and 3 gas pumps. 

I am using a design that is almost identical to yours, I was trying to get something to fit in a four tile high room. A perfect 1Kg/s of oxygen non stop. Also bonus dupes can walk through that while it's building. Considering we both came up with a near identical design I wonder how many more like us are out there.

SPOM.jpg

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2 hours ago, JohnFrancis said:

I am using a design that is almost identical to yours, I was trying to get something to fit in a four tile high room. A perfect 1Kg/s of oxygen non stop. Also bonus dupes can walk through that while it's building. Considering we both came up with a near identical design I wonder how many more like us are out there.

SPOM.jpg

Nice looking build. I've built so many that I don't need to keep it open once i finish.  But I do like your doors in case something needs to be changed.  And I _way_ overbuilt mine, with sensors for temperature and turning the electrolyzers on/off, etc.  I've got more minimalistic builds, but the smallest I've built that guarantees correct gas production and steady 1kg/s O2 is pretty much identical to what you built (without the doors).

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2 hours ago, JohnFrancis said:

I am using a design that is almost identical to yours, I was trying to get something to fit in a four tile high room. A perfect 1Kg/s of oxygen non stop. Also bonus dupes can walk through that while it's building. Considering we both came up with a near identical design I wonder how many more like us are out there.

SPOM.jpg

I've been seeing versions of electrolizer rooms like this off and on since I started playing the game what seems like a year ago.

My personal favorite version is to get rid of the 2 oxygen pumps and step a couple Wheezeworts up on each side to draw the oxygen out into a base while cooling it. 

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