Do you think cheesing methods should remain in the game

[Josonic]

There's been a lot of accusations on both sides of the argument lately about how many people are in favor of having cheesing methods in the game. Let's actually get some data behind this

[Cheetos]

Oooh a can of worms! I always love these types of conversations. Can we first say the forums seem pretty one-sided, historically there are a few members that I see get barked at pretty hard when they suggest "harder" content or fixing / nerfing certain things. I'm wagering this poll will quickly match that bias towards pure ease of access. Because why not? we all take shortcuts.

But moving on! I will be the first to say I come from an MMO background, bosses are what it's all about. As well as In rogue-likes, dark souls games, w/e. Bosses are a huge part of the game. Making sure this content works as it is intended to work is very important to assure the game quality is up to par for a good player experience. When a boss is put into a game and feels "Unfinished". Players can easily pick up on it. In multiplayer content, players when given the choice to do something that negates all or most of the bosses mechanics, or put time into trying to master the fight, will generally take the former (according to what game developers tell me anyway, take it with a grain of salt). When you're in a guild, have fun being the voice in the crowd that says "hey, let's see if we can do it legit!". In DST's case, probably going to be soloing it when they are offline lol.

Now in a game like Don't Starve Together, bosses aren't really a part of the game progression, you don't say "Oh no! I need to kill "x" boss or I can't progress / may die :(!!!" They are optional content for new tools / armor / cosmetics / building a fancier home.

Pathing: Fuelweaver, Toadstool, Dragonfly, Bee Queen, Ancient Guardian (Did I miss any?). Probably the biggest reason Klei doesn't worry too much about fixing many methods of negating these bosses mechanics is because of their issues with pathing Fuelweaver being the on going example of how to reduce fight mechanics (in his case to 0 lol).

AI: Bosses would need some further work on their AI to fix most of the current issues allowing to be cheesed, a recent conversation put it best, "they are big and dumb". I.E. The Bee Queen hates followers and will fear them, I assume because Klei didn't want them solely mowing the boss over for you. Yet she is fine with tentacles soloing her while you sit emote at a fire pit? Just one example.

I could keep going with examples, but I'll just say some cheese is creative, some exploits straight break the game, everybody is entitled to do it in the way they find the most fun. It would be overall better if there were more scenarios where the bosses were consistent and did their thing or at least forced you to more personally interact with them in some way. But I do not think that a better coded game is worth irritating the variety of community members, especially if it's older content.

Tl;dr Better = Yes, Worth it = No. I still enjoy the game for what it is.

[Donke60]

Yeah there is not much you can do if it really bothers you then don't do it it's not the bosses are bad just maybe overly simple.

[MondayNight]

NOPE, NO "cheese" AT ALL! Who needs a fun/campy game when one can bash ones head on the kite-and-tank front?! Kite-and-tank, heal, kite-and-tank, repeat! Creativity?! God forbid that, EWW! If we're talking of qwerty dexterity, let's have a league or ranking system as well, we need to make it official-and-pinned-down for "bragging rights"

 

Irony and jokes aside, some tweaking could do, like Ancient Guardian trying to get you from other side of pillar when stuck situation occurs. On the other hand taking Queen Bee out with tentacles is a viable alternative as work invested in said tentacle trap is quite of an endeavor and creative nevertheless (plus one doesn't just sit beside fire munching shoelaces, hammering and baiting can go pretty wrong at times, even more so if additional events happen).

If DST promoted kite-and-tank as the only fighting method, for me (and I'm sure many others as well) game interest would have died a long time ago.

Oh, and no: difficult games like Dark Souls series should NOT be an example for anything DST-related please!

[Destros09]

1 minute ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

difficult games like Dark Souls series should NOT be an example for anything DST-related please

I agree, dst is more causal oriented than titan souls or ninja gaiden

[csc_unit]

1 hour ago, Cheetos said:

I'll just say some cheese is creative, some exploits straight break the game, everybody is entitled to do it in the way they find the most fun

That sums it up pretty well, I just want to add that one of the most commonly accepted cheese in Dst that no one talks about is being able to tank a boss all the way with certain characters (with wood armor+helm). Like whats the point of creating an AI if a Wolfgang + WX78 can hack down Ancient Guardian in 45 sec. 

[Ghost Meep]

The only cheese trick that should be fixed  is the "Ancient Guardian." The giant literally can't do anything & it's 100% boring.

Every other boss is fine. Although some could use a more fun fighting mechanic.

Goose Goose's disarm attack could be changed into something better. Maybe have some aoe mini tornado attack mechanic like the tornado staff. (basically firing tornadoes at you)

Ancient Guardian could have a mechanic where he jumps up & down creating earthquakes causing debris to fall from the ceiling. 

But those are just my ideas

[PillsStealer]

7 minutes ago, GhostPhreak said:

 

The only cheese trick that should be fixed  is the "Ancient Guardian." The giant literally can't do anything & it's 100% boring.

 

No one is forcing you to do this; there is no one physically forcing you to fight this way. If you do not like the ancient guardian cheese fight, then don't do it. Who cares if someone else does it, that's why the game is amazing! This game allows freedom for a player to handle a boss way any certain way.

[Josonic]

3 minutes ago, GhostPhreak said:

Ancient Guardian could have a mechanic where he jumps up & down creating earthquakes causing debris to fall from the ceiling. 

But those are just my ideas

I'm picturing something like this guy from Mario where he also stuns you when he lands, this part wouldn't help with cheesing though

[Ghost Meep]

13 minutes ago, PillsStealer said:

No one is forcing you to do this; there is no one physically forcing you to fight this way. If you do not like the ancient guardian cheese fight, then don't do it. Who cares if someone else does it, that's why the game is amazing! This game allows freedom for a player to handle a boss way any certain way.

It's not just the cheese trick that's boring, the fight itself is boring. I don't mind cheese trick if they're creative but come on the giant literally CAN'T DO ANYTHING. Where's the fun in that?

Not much of a fight for a rare giant hidden well from players.

[Yuuko]

46 minutes ago, PillsStealer said:

No one is forcing you to do this; there is no one physically forcing you to fight this way. If you do not like the ancient guardian cheese fight, then don't do it. Who cares if someone else does it, that's why the game is amazing! This game allows freedom for a player to handle a boss way any certain way.

I don't think this is a viable argument.  Sure - no one is forcing me to use these tactics, but the fact that they exist devalues the game and detracts from the desire for people to put in any more work than this.  It doesn't speak well for the game when I tell my friend about some awesome giant and that they should play the game with me, and they look online and see a fight easily cleared this way...

-------------------------------------

I think Klei should consider which cheese is too cheesy, and which cheese is more tactics or extreme preparation.  Clear out the ones that are basically "exploitation" and balance the ones that are "extreme preparation."  I mean, tentacles solo'ing bee queen is like having a tooth trap field for hound spawns...  It is something you need to set up, using the game items for their in game function to overcome some game obstacle.

I think that is the key thing to use to differentiate - Are items / mechanics used as intended?  For tentacles and the Bee Queen I would say yes.  The book is designed to summon tentacles, and it would be a bit ridiculous to imagine this is given without the purpose of it being useful.  You could just as easily say using the summon birds and sleepy time stories is cheesing...  She is given this power, that's what it does and how you use it.  The tentacle book could be balanced by upping the durability drain on use, or reducing the tentacles on spawn, or they could change the bee queen to manage tentacles better, but you can't act like putting her in game ability to work is cheesing.

I think something that could help with fixing some cheesing things is to scale the game a bit better based on the number of players in the game.  The difficult and lengthy battles become a bigger issue in single player where the investment / reward of a boss fight overcomes the enjoyment the game element, so players would rather find a way to cheese it to check it off the list rather than actually go through an hour or more of fighting.

I understand DST is designed to be a multiplayer game, but at this point I think it is as much DS2 as it is DStogether, but then all this content comes out and I see 99,999 health and realize that's 20 tentacle spikes of health, 1961 attacks, 785 seconds if the fight involved only holding F, over 13 minutes if that was all the fight involved...  Like, I could probably queue up for a game of LoL and be back before someone solo'd that thing...  doesn't matter if it's 1 person, 2, 4, or 20...

[Ressayez]

59 minutes ago, GhostPhreak said:

Goose Goose's disarm attack could be changed into something better. Maybe have some aoe mini tornado attack mechanic like the tornado staff. (basically firing tornadoes at you)

Time to beg Sir Jackenstire to bring Wrath of the Giants to DST.

[Ressayez]

Actually, I think all of you masochists would just adore this.

[JJburner]

1 hour ago, GhostPhreak said:

It's not just the cheese trick that's boring, the fight itself is boring. I don't mind cheese trick if they're creative but come on the giant literally CAN'T DO ANYTHING. Where's the fun in that?

Not much of a fight for a rare giant hidden well from players.

Meep, if you didn't know, there is also a strat for cheesing toad and fw, that you cannot take any damage whatsoever from, if you pull it off successfully. So not only ag that is easily cheesed, but two much more tougher normally bosses, also need more rework. Although I think they might of fixed the toad cheese according to the bug report logs now that I checked.

[Donke60]

42 minutes ago, Ressayez said:

Actually, I think all of you masochists would just adore this.

There was a mod that did something similar I think it was called maxwell world and buffed everything to an insane degree it was for normal DS though 

[Mananu]

Of course not. Klei should get rid of the cheesing strats as soon as possible. Let them design the game similar to Dark Souls franchise so everyone must learn how to ''git gud'' on day 1 from installing the game. NO beginners allowed. Don't you dare to have fun and find solutions to beat a mob/boss easier, it's cheating. C'mon Klei, the game is too ''ez''.

[Lumina]

Ok, i don't understand. What "cheesing" means exactly ? Because english isn't my native language and it's hard to understand sometimes.

Reading various topics, i was thinking that cheesing was a borderline technic to do a thing, like bug using or stuff like this. But some players are acting like it's just a way to remove difficulty, but without any bug abuse. So what is it ?

Because if it's just something removing difficulty (the way that "recruiting follower so they fight for you" is, for example), it could stay.

 

But if it's "abusing limits of the IA" of stuff like this, it should be removed. With, for example, adding news way to manage the fight if there isn't any (are followers useless against ancien gardian for example ?)

 

Because bugs aren't a normal part of the game, and if bugs are making the game enjoyable, the solution isn't to keep bug, but to correct them and make a proper and clean way to enjoy the game.

[Nightfall]

57 minutes ago, Lumina said:

Ok, i don't understand. What "cheesing" means exactly ? Because english isn't my native language and it's hard to understand sometimes.

Reading various topics, i was thinking that cheesing was a borderline technic to do a thing, like bug using or stuff like this. But some players are acting like it's just a way to remove difficulty, but without any bug abuse. So what is it ?

Because if it's just something removing difficulty (the way that "recruiting follower so they fight for you" is, for example), it could stay.

 

But if it's "abusing limits of the IA" of stuff like this, it should be removed. With, for example, adding news way to manage the fight if there isn't any (are followers useless against ancien gardian for example ?)

 

Because bugs aren't a normal part of the game, and if bugs are making the game enjoyable, the solution isn't to keep bug, but to correct them and make a proper and clean way to enjoy the game.

It seems people have different opinion on cheesing. I've seen some people calling recruiting or tanking cheesing.

My take on what cheesing, is getting the boss stuck somehow so they can't fight back or it removes a fight mechanic. I don't really mind recruiting follower or tanking a boss because it requires more resources and planning to do.

[Ghost Meep]

Tanking is fine.

Recruiting is fine.

Using tentacles is fine.

Walls are fine.

IceFlingos are fine

Tbh these ^ aren't even cheesing. I think they're strategically smart.

 

If the boss can't even fight back or become completely useless by some dumb bug then it's cheesing. Boss fights are suppose to be fun & challenging-ish.

I don't get why people get so triggered over this xD

But I'm sure Klei will do something about this in the future. I'll just be patient because I'm sure they're excited to release the new awesome content they're planning.     

 

 

[FTR]

I don't think it matters if there is cheese or not. You still have to know how to cheese certain things, and based on what I see playing on various servers, most people are far from even knowing that.

So in the end it's all about providing new challenge for experienced players. Adding new stuff is way better way to achieve this than trying to fix things that been in the game since the beggining.

Besides, this game provides plenty of options of how you can play it. You can make your own challenges and you don't have to cheese anything. 

Check out Joeshmocoolstuff videos. He often changes rules of how he does various things because he doesn't want too much cheese in his speedruns and it works out for him. He has fun and challenge. Perhaps you should do the same.

For some people using wiki is cheese, for others using guardian pillars glitch is cheese and for experienced players using football hats is cheese (extreme example), it's all very dependant of prespective.

[AnonymousKoala]

Depends on the type of cheesing. A contraption, such as the bee queen maze or a tentacle trap, nah(Both also have their issues. The former costs a good amount of resources and you still have to actually fight, the latter is a hazard to you too). Something that fully shuts down a boss' ai or something like that and is an obvious bug, yeah.

 

[Donke60]

http://steamcommunity.com/id/drblood1995/myworkshopfiles/?appid=219740 

@Ressayez I found it 

[thistownneedsguns]

you are not forced to use the "cheese tactics", some players have fun fighting toadstool alone with the help of flingos, some others like to build a bunnyarena around dragonfly, bee queen.. everyone can play the game they like. 

[Sinister_Fang]

8 hours ago, Lumina said:

Ok, i don't understand. What "cheesing" means exactly ? Because english isn't my native language and it's hard to understand sometimes.

Cheesing is more or less a strategy or tactic that makes something much, much easier then originally intended.

[Lumpa1227]

Cheese will exist no point in whining about it it's like you guys think making a thread about it will make all cheap tactics go away. Like the devs  don't know there own game (uh how long do my posts need to be moderated