Technoincubus Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 Normal Pipe - 100 Insulated Pipe - 400 Radiant Pipe - 50 refined metal Normal Gas Pipe - 25 Radiant Gas Pipe - 25 refined metal Insulated gas Pipe - 400(!!!) Why is it 16 times more expensive? 4 times for liquid pipe- reasonable. But SIXTEEN? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 Yeah, It's quite insane how much the insulated gas pipe costs but a good way to get rid of large amounts of igneous rock. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1090836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasza22 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 I wish insualted pipes didn`t cost as much. Especially now that we have to rely on ceramic. 100 cycles of 2 kilns pumping it out is barely enough to set up piping for your electrolyzers in the ice biome. I wish we get more early game alternatives for insulation. Or maybe a mid game one. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1090912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crypticorb Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 49 minutes ago, Sasza22 said: I wish insualted pipes didn`t cost as much. Especially now that we have to rely on ceramic. 100 cycles of 2 kilns pumping it out is barely enough to set up piping for your electrolyzers in the ice biome. I wish we get more early game alternatives for insulation. Or maybe a mid game one. Why do you feel the need to use ceramic so liberally? I've found igneous rock insulated pipes is more than sufficient for the task of transporting anything that isn't extremely hot or cold. Inside the base, I can see the need for ceramic insulation to keep things cool, or transportation to a farm, but localized cooling would be far more effective than creating incredibly long insulted pipes of ceramic. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1090931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Ceramic is extremely expensive to make. 400kg clay and 100kg coal to make one, I repeat one, section of insulated pipe or tile. That's effectively 6KJ to make each section of insulated pipe or tile. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1090984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 10 hours ago, Technoincubus said: Radiant Gas Pipe - 25 refined metal 25 raw actually For some reasons, gas pipes use raw metal for radiants, which means you need to waste wolframite on it or get an order of magnitude slower transfer. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1090994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasza22 Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 6 hours ago, Saturnus said: Ceramic is extremely expensive to make. 300kg clay and 100kg coal to make one, I repeat one, section of insulated pipe or tile. Actually it`s 400kg clay. The coal doesn`t add to the mass. It just gets burned in the process. 10 hours ago, crypticorb said: Why do you feel the need to use ceramic so liberally? I've found igneous rock insulated pipes is more than sufficient for the task of transporting anything that isn't extremely hot or cold. Maybe i`m overreacting on insulation. I was just excited when they added an alternative insulating material just to be dissapointed to how hard it is to get large amounts of it (even compared to abyssalite). I guess it`s a lesson. Now we have to be more careful what we insulate and what minerals we use for it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1091054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 8 minutes ago, Sasza22 said: Actually it`s 400kg clay. The coal doesn`t add to the mass. It just gets burned in the process. Right. Was never the interesting part though. The interesting thing is that it cost 2.5x more power to produce ceramic per kg than refined metal which is just inane. Give us an efficient electric kiln if you're forcing us to make ceramics on an industrial scale. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1091057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreyKl Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 3 hours ago, Saturnus said: Right. Was never the interesting part though. The interesting thing is that it cost 2.5x more power to produce ceramic per kg than refined metal which is just inane. Give us an efficient electric kiln if you're forcing us to make ceramics on an industrial scale. +1 At the moment I need more of the staff then I need refined tungsten and copper Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1091105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risu Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 If it was cheaper then it would be less effective. That mass is what makes them useful. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1091147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazumiya Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 Don't ask things who make sense x) Isolated = thick layer of material for the isolation... Just like Double Layer Glass Window in your hourse (actualy I don't know if it is the proper english translation, but you got me right ? ) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1091166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crypticorb Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 There is a hidden benefit to having 400kg gas pipes that nobody seems to have brought up: higher mass pipes means slower transfer of heat, which is the entire point of insulation. Example: if you have hot oxygen piped through your home base to supply exosuits, having higher mass pipes may be beneficial to keep the pipes from heating up fast. Is it worth the higher material cost? I'd say it depends on the material. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1091184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathmanican Posted October 6, 2018 Share Posted October 6, 2018 1 hour ago, crypticorb said: nobody seems to have brought up: Ummm... 3 hours ago, Risu said: If it was cheaper then it would be less effective. That mass is what makes them useful. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1091212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariilyn Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 23 hours ago, Risu said: If it was cheaper then it would be less effective. That mass is what makes them useful. 21 hours ago, crypticorb said: higher mass pipes means slower transfer of heat, which is the entire point of insulation. Not at all. Most insulation materials are lightweight because their structure is made to trap small pockets of air inside (think polystyrene, foams, wools, cellulose, etc). Thats because gases have poor thermal conductivity compared to liquids and solids and make for a good insulation material when trapped. I would suggest that insulated components should have the same base material cost than regular components + an additional, but smaller, insulation material cost. And to create a new category for insulation materials, that would included reed fiber, igneous rock, ceramic, glass, and the new superinsulator made with abyssalite. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1091461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreyKl Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 On 07.10.2018 at 9:21 PM, Mariilyn said: Not at all. Most insulation materials are lightweight because their structure is made to trap small pockets of air inside (think polystyrene, foams, wools, cellulose, etc). Thats because gases have poor thermal conductivity compared to liquids and solids and make for a good insulation material when trapped. +1 higher mass mostly means not slower transfer but higher buffer. On 06.10.2018 at 10:22 PM, Kazumiya said: Don't ask things who make sense x) Isolated = thick layer of material for the isolation... Just like Double Layer Glass Window in your hourse It is double layer not because more glass means better insulation, but to trap gas in between. e.x. air has conductivity of 0.026 W/(m K), normal glass - 1.05. Air does most protection. Triple and more layers of glass are there also not as thermal insulators but as a way to prevent gas exchange between layers. Higher mass equals Buffer, which is a good thing to have in case you need to compensate for frequent changes, and thicker material does reduce heat loss to some degree, but nowhere near as good as light gas-containing/trapping materials do. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1091854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technoincubus Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 Heavier=more insulated is a flawed approach. I doubt it is not possible to manually set properties for insulated pipes so they have same insulation but no need for 400 kgs of material. I mean, look at the most common insulated window Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1107835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glassyfo Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 If insulation were to be more similar to real life, lower mass and the addition of reed fiber would solve things. That would then make reed fiber farms useful. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1107985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreyKl Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 4:03 AM, crypticorb said: Why do you feel the need to use ceramic so liberally? I've found igneous rock insulated pipes is more than sufficient for the task of transporting anything that isn't extremely hot or cold. Ceramic has 'insulator' property. If you place an insulated pipe from igneous rock into igneous tile, they will exchange heat. If you place ceramic pipe (not sure, but likely need to be insulated) into tile (likely needs to be insulated) they don't seem to exchange heat. I have an hydrogen vent with termium gas pump. 500C Hydrogen is in ceramic insulated pipe, pipe is in oxygen, Hydrogen loses 0.1C per second and heats up environment (will lose more if it is from other materials). But with hydrogen in ceramic insulated pipe, when pipe is in ceramic insulated tile I don't see tile changing temperature or any temperature changes in environment (pipe still heats up). P.S. I might be wrong and there still might be tiny exchange that gets compensated by environment, but doesn't seem to be the case. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1108004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasza22 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 1 hour ago, bleeter6 said: If insulation were to be more similar to real life, lower mass and the addition of reed fiber would solve things. That would then make reed fiber farms useful. As for now reed fibers are an ingredient for super insulator (5 units per 100kg). It`d be nice if it was a little bit lower tech though. And if better insulators didn`t use 400 kg per pipe segment. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1108064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chemie Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Sasza22 said: As for now reed fibers are an ingredient for super insulator (5 units per 100kg). It`d be nice if it was a little bit lower tech though. And if better insulators didn`t use 400 kg per pipe segment. which is a ridiculous amount of fiber. someone did the math and the labor and pw demand for a modest amount of insulator is seriously broken Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1108145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasza22 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 21 minutes ago, chemie said: pw demand Guess wooly dreckos feeding off balm lillies are the way to go then. You`ll need to stockpile a lot of it before you go to space. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1108154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 23 minutes ago, chemie said: which is a ridiculous amount of fiber. someone did the math and the labor and pw demand for a modest amount of insulator is seriously broken It's 3200kg PW per 100kg insulator if you get it from thimble reeds, and only if you harvest basically immediately which with a 2 cycle growth cycle is a daunting task. A more realistic in-game figure is about 5t PW per 100kg insulator. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1108156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnis Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Which is why fun drecko ranches are cool. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1108158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
avc15 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 11:51 PM, Coolthulhu said: 25 raw actually For some reasons, gas pipes use raw metal for radiants, which means you need to waste wolframite on it or get an order of magnitude slower transfer. Well it's also one and a half orders of magnitude less heat content per gas packet so, most gas radiators don't really need to use wolframite unless they just MUST only be one or two tiles long. 1.5 orders less heat content per packet at 1.5 orders lower thermal conductivity ~~ about similar delta t per unit length. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/96154-why-insulated-gas-pipe-costs-400/#findComment-1108173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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