Steel production needs to change

[goboking]

1 hour ago, SharraShimada said:

DarkPower playing tetris...

"Duuuude, you have to change the square-block, it toooooo hard to place it useful. And i dont want to use that long bar. Its way to complicated".

 

Buddy, are you sure, this is the right game for you? Its early access, its developing. We all know, everything could change tomorrow, and hours of expierence are worthless. So your problem may be gone by the time the game goes into release. But maybe you should stick to something finished to the time being.

Why do you feel the need to respond in such a churlish, condescending manner?

[silverbluep]

In reality, people can substitute limestone with egg shells to obtain lime. Check this out;

 However, the process is really not suited for large scale production; as he notes that he was only able to make one brick from all the shells he collected. I really think they should add limestone as a mineable in the game. That would balance steel; you have it renewable (iron from meteors, coal from hatches and lime from shells) but you can produce it by mining what limestone is there.

[trukogre]

2 hours ago, goboking said:

Why do you feel the need to respond in such a churlish, condescending manner?

Assuming he's posting due to a need and not simply because he wants to is itself condescending.  One could argue he's merely being blunt in response to repeated hyperbole, and that you're being more condescending and churlish than he is.

[Gurgel]

12 hours ago, SkunkMaster said:

So you guys get a solution, delivered on a silver platter, and you throw it away because what ? you don't want to ? 

[...]

Heck why even grow plants ? you can just keep gathering wild plants for food, no need to grow anything.

I think, no, something tells me you have missed the point of this game... just sayin.

I agree to that. The very point of this game is that Klei throws a series of hard challenges at you and you got to find a solution under time pressure or things will get progressively worse. Complaining is not a solution.

Often this will involve one or several temporary solutions, before you can get a permanent one. For example, you can build that wall to space with some stone tiles.  I did it with mafic rock in my last game and now I do it with granite. And there are lots of alternatives. I do, for example, use dreckos for that lime. Takes a bit longer, but works just as well. And I am sure slicksters, shine bugs, hatches and pufts would work as well. You really are only screwed if you killed all critters.

Now anybody not liking this type of gameplay should very likely play something else. There are tons of games out there that are dumbed down to match the tastes even of those that want no challenge at all. Hell, there are even games that play themselves and you just watch.

[BlueLance]

16 hours ago, _Q_ said:

Beside the fact that I don't want to bother with ranching, farming and all that stuff.

Unfortunately it is the main source of lime, so until they introduce lime deposits in the wild (Which can be done, and quite frankly should be), you either need to do ranching or just deal with the fact you cannot make a lot of steel.

[Whispershade]

14 hours ago, SkunkMaster said:

So you guys get a solution, delivered on a silver platter, and you throw it away because what ? you don't want to ? 

 

Dude make 2 fish tanks, 1 for breeding 1 for keeping stock. the stock tank you fill the eggs into, the breed tank you just maintain numbers to avoid overcrowd. Now all you have to do is fish out the eggs out of breeding tank and drop them into stock tank.

 

This can all be done with shipping and a little bit of automation, requiring you to do ABSOLUTELY nothing. And you still complain ? xD XD XD

 

Once you've past 100 fish you will be working more on getting refined carbon and refined iron then shells and lime. but hey bro, don't do with ranching, don't get those Molten Slicksters, Glossy Dreckos or Stone hatches.

Heck why even grow plants ? you can just keep gathering wild plants for food, no need to grow anything.

I think, no, something tells me you have missed the point of this game... just sayin.

I am curious. How do you drop eggs to mature with automation?

[WanderingKid]

18 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

I am curious. How do you drop eggs to mature with automation?

There's a trick using the sweeper arm and automation timing. It's enough time to pick up an egg, but it drops it before it's put into storage.  Drop it down far enough and it can't get picked up again.  I'll see if I can find a save for it, I forget the settings.

EDIT: Set for a 3 second buffer like this, it can pick up but it'll never get a chance store it, so you can drop it where you need it:

[Whispershade]

21 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

There's a trick using the sweeper arm and automation timing. It's enough time to pick up an egg, but it drops it before it's put into storage.  Drop it down far enough and it can't get picked up again.  I'll see if I can find a save for it, I forget the settings.

EDIT: Set for a 3 second buffer like this, it can pick up but it'll never get a chance store it, so you can drop it where you need it:

Handy, thanks.

[psusi]

On 8/1/2018 at 12:10 PM, SkunkMaster said:

They do get overcrowded ? They still maintain numbers, even while overcrowded, glum, and starving.

They will still reproduce a MINIMUM of 1 egg before they die.

What?  When my critters get hungry, I get a notice that they are starving and their tool tip says they will die in 10 cycles if not fed.

 

[Gurgel]

1 hour ago, psusi said:

What?  When my critters get hungry, I get a notice that they are starving and their tool tip says they will die in 10 cycles if not fed.

 

My take is that as soon as you have critters tamed, you nee to feed them. For Pacus, the time until they starve may just be enough to lay an egg though. No idea. For tame Dreckos, it could just be enough for one egg as well. 

[_Q_]

5 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

My take is that as soon as you have critters tamed, you nee to feed them. For Pacus, the time until they starve may just be enough to lay an egg though. No idea. For tame Dreckos, it could just be enough for one egg as well. 

You tame like one or 2 fishes and then feed only those and take eggs to incubate in other tank so the new fishes are wild.

[psusi]

Ahh, right... newly hatched fish go wild.  Will tame ones go wild again if you stop grooming them?  Or they are just unhappy aren't they?

 

[BadlyBurned]

28 minutes ago, _Q_ said:

You tame like one or 2 fishes and then feed only those and take eggs to incubate in other tank so the new fishes are wild.

I'm pretty sure new eggs take up the status of their parents. If their parents are wild, they will be wild. If they were tame, the eggs will be tame (and those that hatch out of them)

Its so people don't exploit wild fisheries in exactly the manner you are describing.

[psusi]

Also how many dang fish you need for that?  They live for like 75 cycles right?  So to get just 1 meat and egg per day you would need 75 fish.  That doesn't seem very good.

[SkunkMaster]

3 minutes ago, psusi said:

Also how many dang fish you need for that?  They live for like 75 cycles right?  So to get just 1 meat and egg per day you would need 75 fish.  That doesn't seem very good.

They only live for 25 cycles, they are all tame, and they don't get to starve to death before they managed to lay the egg. With 50 fish that's 2 eggs a day with 4kg shells, 2kg omelette and 2kg of meat.

 

both stock and breeder fish are tame, since eggs come with same tameness as parents.

[psusi]

If they are tame, then they will die in 10 cycles without food.

 

[SkunkMaster]

3 hours ago, psusi said:

If they are tame, then they will die in 10 cycles without food.

 

That would be true, if they where born starving. But the amount of kcal they are born with makes it possible for them to live out their lives happily, while glum and overcrowded ofcourse.

[psusi]

On 8/4/2018 at 12:17 AM, SkunkMaster said:

That would be true, if they where born starving. But the amount of kcal they are born with makes it possible for them to live out their lives happily, while glum and overcrowded ofcourse.

Only if they are born wild.  When born tame, they consume the calories much faster then starve, then die 10 cycles after that.

[SkunkMaster]

7 hours ago, psusi said:

Only if they are born wild.  When born tame, they consume the calories much faster then starve, then die 10 cycles after that.

nope. When not fed they go glum, which is equal to being wild.

[_Q_]

I think fishes are overeating, the fish was at almost max calories and was eating anyway. They have 450 max and -100 per cycle so it should eat every 4 cycles or so.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

I mean, sure we can built overcrowding fish ponds, wait for the day Klei savagely fixes that with the consequence EVERYBODY will complain to death how they can't get steel anymore.

Or we can adress the issue now.

[BlueLance]

12 hours ago, psusi said:

Only if they are born wild.  When born tame, they consume the calories much faster then starve, then die 10 cycles after that.

They start with enough calories to keep themselves alive long enough and then they still get the 10 cycle buffer.

[Idinyphe]

I have the same problem and I think steel production needs a fix.

In my last game ( I dropped it) there was only an ice biom on top of my base with a magma geysir in it. The geysir was uncovered, melted down the biom, the water was lost in space and at cycle 500 my base was "under attack". I did not have enough eggs in time to build a shield.

And one of the 2 natural gas geysirs was right on the edge of space. I don't know if it can be destroyed but there was no way that I can produce energy out of that. And without a second natural gas your progress is slowed down even more.

I do not breed a lot at the moment (my framedrops if I do are very bad)

I am sure they will fix this in the future and until then I see no point in playing. You could say that it is mandatory to check the bioms in sandbox mode before playing or picking a good seed from the forums. But this is cheating.

You could argue that you still should be able to lose the game even if you have put hours and hours in it. It would be okay if you could save patterns of rooms and logic that work and just pop this pattern into free space and then the Dupes are building it.

 

Maybe this is a misconception: the game is still a beta and is far from balanced. I don't think that it is fair to complain about that the way the threadopener did. But I think we should complain about it so that it can be fixed.

You have to use strange tricks like the "I do not drop the egg" cheat to get along. Or that overcrowded fishtank that looks horrible to me. Factory farming is a bad message in a game if you are forced to do it. I would really like it if they punish players for doing that. (as in real life this has bad consequences in the long run, overcrowded animals should not reproduce, problem solved)

For me it is very clear that I will not play the game until this is fixed. I am sure there is a way to get informed when the next big update is coming.

[Whispershade]

I am in agreement that this is a problem. Namely, the absurd need for ludicrous amounts of lime very rapidly to build a dome to protect the asteroid from impacts annihilating the space facing biomes. I'm not a fan of the pumping out fish method of lime production, though I am doing it anyway. I have otherwise worked to avoid killing the animals or give them good sustainable quality of life as much as my dupes. If the drilling of the asteroid by impacts is rectified, the need for steel is diminished. I also think the gravitas facility walls should be built of steel, to enable a bit of head start and to protect the facility. Maybe make deconstructing steel items require a senior architect.

For the record. An unhappy fish has a reduced metabolism of 20kcal a day. It is only 100kcal if they're happy (tames and have fed as an adult). With 450kcal, they've just enough to survive their 5 cycles of childhood and 20 cycles of adulthood without starving if they're never fed to begin with, even while tame.