New geysers are awful

[Technoincubus]

Adaping to new changes where solution sis not to use new features is the very definition of a flawed design solution.

Simpliest solution now is to get a steady supply of water and polluted water. Which means establising a puft-morb farm to accumulate slime for aglae distilizers as Electrolyzer is no longer viable due to high water consumption on a sustainable basis. Slime from puft farm is.

Which means it could supply polluted water for fert. power plant and filtering.

It removes electrolyzers, nat gas geyser and hydrogen generator from equation, which never happened in previous builds.

It is the same like pre-patch food - mealwood produced enough food for ntire colony and oter food was not needed.

Change that makes entire branches of game buildings sub-optimal is a bad change. Sub-optimal is not equal to "early solution" 

[trukogre]

17 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:

Adaping to new changes where solution sis not to use new features is the very definition of a flawed design solution.

Simpliest solution now is to get a steady supply of water and polluted water. Which means establising a puft-morb farm to accumulate slime for aglae distilizers as Electrolyzer is no longer viable due to high water consumption on a sustainable basis. Slime from puft farm is.

Which means it could supply polluted water for fert. power plant and filtering.

It removes electrolyzers, nat gas geyser and hydrogen generator from equation, which never happened in previous builds.

It is the same like pre-patch food - mealwood produced enough food for ntire colony and oter food was not needed.

Change that makes entire branches of game buildings sub-optimal is a bad change. Sub-optimal is not equal to "early solution" 

I'm not convinced that electrolyzers are no longer viable...that statement is inherently dependent on colony size.  If you wanted a colony of 250 dupes, electrolyzers were never viable.  If you want a colony of 10 dupes, electrolyzers seem clearly still viable.  The viability number seems to have changed, but what is the new average number?  As far as I can see, that's yet to be determined.  fert power plant is overpowered granted, but that's a quick fix... although i'm not sure it makes sense to look at that as long as boiling oil in to nat gas remains in its current even more overpowered state.  It's interesting you bring up mealwood, as the solution there was to nerf mealwood, but you assume in this case the solution must be to buff everything else and remove all challenge from the game whatsoever.  if they add new geysers without adding in a dormancy period, the game will be trivially easy due to resource oversupply.

[Technoincubus]

Mealwood replacing all other food was a siuation in need of fixing, and fixed it was.

But current geyser situation is like mealwood to be changed to require metal as fertilizer and crowing up in 10 cycles.I have no problem with dormace cycles but as long as dormance lasts 70-150 cycles geysers are a ulesess asset

[SkunkMaster]

24 minutes ago, Technoincubus said:

Mealwood replacing all other food was a siuation in need of fixing, and fixed it was.

But current geyser situation is like mealwood to be changed to require metal as fertilizer and crowing up in 10 cycles.I have no problem with dormace cycles but as long as dormance lasts 70-150 cycles geysers are a ulesess asset

You are aware that there are several geysers, and you are very likely to find geysers of the same kind.

Said geysers now also erupt a variable amount per geyser basis. So you can be "unlucky" and find a geyser that spews 60g/s nat-gas for 20 cycles, and is dormant for 100, or you can be lucky, and find one that is close to never dormant and spews 500+ g/s nat-gas.

I have both in my current seed.

So, if you don't like the geyser you find, try and look for another.

[goboking]

9 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

You are aware that there are several geysers, and you are very likely to find geysers of the same kind.

Said geysers now also erupt a variable amount per geyser basis. So you can be "unlucky" and find a geyser that spews 60g/s nat-gas for 20 cycles, and is dormant for 100, or you can be lucky, and find one that is close to never dormant and spews 500+ g/s nat-gas.

I have both in my current seed.

So, if you don't like the geyser you find, try and look for another.

Very likely does not mean guaranteed.  You and I can make due without natural gas geysers just fine, I'm sure.  But others might not want to even try.  For them a natural gas geyser might be a requisite and they're not going to enjoy sinking 100+ cycles into a colony only to discover it doesn't have one.

[SkunkMaster]

1 minute ago, goboking said:

Very likely does not mean guaranteed.  You and I can make due without natural gas geysers just fine, I'm sure.  But others might not want to even try.  For them a natural gas geyser might be a requisite and they're not going to enjoy sinking 100+ cycles into a colony only to discover it doesn't have one.

Yeah, i'm close to cycle 200, have close to 1 million calories and still haven't touched a geyser more then to analyze a few and close them in. 

 

Honestly i don't understand the obsession with nat-gas geysers. They generate a lot of heat, so does the generators, and that means needs for cooling without the fertilizer synthesizers.

So much easier just to put up 9 synthesizers and have 3 generators run of of those. Best part, you can use your 100 Celsius warm waste water and still cool down the generators just fine. 

 

 

[Technoincubus]

24 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

Said geysers now also erupt a variable amount per geyser basis. So you can be "unlucky" and find a geyser that spews 60g/s nat-gas for 20 cycles, and is dormant for 100, or you can be lucky, and find one that is close to never dormant and spews 500+ g/s nat-gas.

I never saw a geyser with less than 70 cycle dormancy. And my usual after several runs is about 85-100+

 

[SkunkMaster]

1 minute ago, Technoincubus said:

I never saw a geyser with less than 70 cycle dormancy. And my usual after several runs is about 85-100+

 

"Never"? You make it sound like you've been through 20+ colonies where you've explored the whole map. I highly doubt that is the case, considering the patch only has been out for a few days.

 

Please clarify what you understand under "never". Like, what is your sample size?

[BlueLance]

Electrolyzers are still fine, their values are still the same, and I only used water for them so ill be running mine for a couple of hundred cycles before I even run out of starting water. Then I have my cool steam geyser which has about 10-12 tiles of water already. so even at 100 cycles or so it would erupt and give me more. plenty of time before I need to worry about water again.

[trukogre]

27 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

Yeah, i'm close to cycle 200, have close to 1 million calories and still haven't touched a geyser more then to analyze a few and close them in. 

 

Honestly i don't understand the obsession with nat-gas geysers. They generate a lot of heat, so does the generators, and that means needs for cooling without the fertilizer synthesizers.

So much easier just to put up 9 synthesizers and have 3 generators run of of those. Best part, you can use your 100 Celsius warm waste water and still cool down the generators just fine. 

 

 

If you set up your generators properly they generate a lot of cooling, actually, way more than enough to deal with any heat that leaks from the geyser.  You're certainly correct that geysers are unnecessary, though.

[SkunkMaster]

3 minutes ago, trukogre said:

If you set up your generators properly they generate a lot of cooling, actually.

I know, but that is besides the point. 

The point was more that there are literally more then 10 ways to create excess amount of power, and that there are better ways then to rely on nat-gas geysers. Or any geyser for that sake.

[trukogre]

38 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

I know, but that is besides the point. 

The point was more that there are literally more then 10 ways to create excess amount of power, and that there are better ways then to rely on nat-gas geysers. Or any geyser for that sake.

So you weakened your main point by presenting a side point that you not only consider 'besides the point'  , but which additionally you knew to be simply not true?   That's an odd choice, but it's your time to spend.

[SkunkMaster]

1 minute ago, trukogre said:

So you weakened your main point by presenting a side point that was not only 'besides the point'  but also simply not true, and which you knew to be not true?   Odd, but it's your time.

What ? Where do i make a point stating that geyser-dependency is good ? or what do i state is not true ? 

 

[Oozinator]

@trukogre @SkunkMaster

[Moggles]

Basically the the title of this thread is 100% incorrect.

On the 7th of March there were no new geysers.

On the 8th of March we got new geysers.

We have a net gain in fun and resources.

[trukogre]

9 hours ago, SkunkMaster said:

What ? Where do i make a point stating that geyser-dependency is good ? or what do i state is not true ? 

 

You state in one post that NGG "generate a lot of heat".  I replied that set up properly, they actually generate a large cooling effect.  You replied " I know, but that is besides the point".  So, you admitted you knew all along that your initial statement that NGG generate a lot of heat was untrue, as well as denigrating the entire issue of heat as a side point, even though you are the one who initially brought it up in the first place.  That doesn't seem odd to you?

[Guest]

I think I can life without the nat gas geysers. I mean the new volcano's should make up for it as you can use those for either steam turbines or to cook oil into nat gas.

My main worry is water. You need water for food, for oxygen, for bathrooms, for oil,,... . If ultimately the map produces less water than before, than that is going to put a limit on dupe count.

Btw, I can't seem to find the answer on this: how much do the new geysers (nat gas, steam geysers, basically all new and old ones) actually produce per second on average? So with downtime included.

[TheScaryOne]

It's random. The ranges are REALLY large. You can effectively get a useless map. I'd highly recommend saving before uncovering a new geyser, so that way if it's not a producer you can load and dig it out again to see if you get something better. It's Klei, they're going to massage it a bit more by release.

 

[onlineous]

On 9-3-2018 at 4:29 PM, Technoincubus said:

I cannot disagree with you more.

This change does not add any variety or force players to diversify their infrastructure.

I will not build any natgas pump or gens for natgas geyser now - I will build a fert.synth plant which will never stop for 97 cycles. And even if I will, now geyser barely can sustain its own infrastructure.

What is worse, water from already semi-limited resource moved to extremely limited. All water geyser gains could be used within several cycles and then it wll be gone for 100 or o cycles.

This update promotes tedium and workaround semi-exploitive solutions. Who used generator tuning, which required refined metal? None whom I know among my friends who play ONI, no streamer even touched it, except to see what it does.

With that way of working I understand you'll have a lack of water. I'm currently playing a base around cycle 5500 and I haven't tapped my two steam geysers in at least 1500 cycles.

In this game it is important though that you close the circle of resources.

Your setup: 3 fert.synths run one nat gas generator = 382,5 grams of polluted water consumed per second (450 consumed by 3 ferth-synth and 67,5 created by 1 nat.gas.gen, and you probably won't survive on one nat.gas generator).

If you get that natural gas from (several?) nat.gas geysers you have 67,5 grams per second surplus of polluted water.

Using crude oil (made by slicksters from CO2 or from an oil well in a oil refinery) you get even more natural gas to convert in power and polluted water, AND you get petroleum, which you can use in a petroleum generator to get even more power and polluted water.

You feed the CO2 back to the slicksters et voila, you have (part of?) your crude oil back.

Toilets provide quite a lot of polluted water as well.

Polluted water can quite easily be converted to clean water using either a water sieve or a boiler.

Want even more polluted water? Drop the crude oil on magma or liquid metal and convert it directly to natural gas.

This update provides loads of new possibilities and I'm really happy with it.

[Technoincubus]

15-20 dormancy cycle will not render geysers useless. 150 dormancy does. All this "find alternatices" will not solve main problem of geysers being either one-time use, to drain it and forget because it will awake some forever time in the future

 

[trukogre]

2 hours ago, Technoincubus said:

15-20 dormancy cycle will not render geysers useless. 150 dormancy does. All this "find alternatices" will not solve main problem of geysers being either one-time use, to drain it and forget because it will awake some forever time in the future

 

If 150 cycles is "forever" in your book, why do you even want or need geysers in the first place?  Getting to 150 cycles without geysers is trivial.

[PhailRaptor]

1 hour ago, trukogre said:

If 150 cycles is "forever" in your book, why do you even want or need geysers in the first place?  Getting to 150 cycles without geysers is trivial.

False equivalance.  Surviving for the first 150 cycles is a direct result of having additional starting resources.  Those same resources do not exist at cycle 150, namely a reserve of temperate water that you can draw from for food and a supply of algae for oxygen.  In all of my playthroughs, if I haven't harnessed a Steam Geyser and set up Electrolyzers by that point, there's nothing I can do to recover.

[onlineous]

4 hours ago, Technoincubus said:

15-20 dormancy cycle will not render geysers useless. 150 dormancy does. All this "find alternatices" will not solve main problem of geysers being either one-time use, to drain it and forget because it will awake some forever time in the future

 

Not useless at all, you will need every drop of water you can get from them, especially if your playstyle is 'wasteful'.

Yes, the output of steam geysers will be much more limited than before, especially with 'bad' maps. But you might get a polluted water geyser back. 

You'll have to think more what generates (usually polluted) water and how you use water. Feeding it to ferth.synth when you have a water deficit is a big no-no.

And if you really think you need some more geysers, you can always spawn them in using debug mode. I don't think I'll need them, but I didn't use slicksters, pufts, hatches and morbs in the previous versions either because I consider them quite cheaty. You can make your own choices, you don't have to limit yourself to the current game challenges and chances, you can make your own!

1 hour ago, PhailRaptor said:

False equivalance.  Surviving for the first 150 cycles is a direct result of having additional starting resources.  Those same resources do not exist at cycle 150, namely a reserve of temperate water that you can draw from for food and a supply of algae for oxygen.  In all of my playthroughs, if I haven't harnessed a Steam Geyser and set up Electrolyzers by that point, there's nothing I can do to recover.

What do you do with your polluted water? Do you reuse it, or 'destroy' it?

I find it hard to believe you run through all water in the map in a mere 150 cycles. My current base is around cycle 5500 and I still haven't used all clean and polluted water and ice in the map and I haven't used my steam geysers for at least 1500 cycles.
 

[BlueLance]

I last about 300-400 cycles on my starting water, by then if I tap into a geyser even with one of the new ones I have literally tonnes of water which will last me waaaay longer than any dormancy, unless its over 200-300 cycles. 

[Saturnus]

3 hours ago, onlineous said:

I find it hard to believe you run through all water in the map in a mere 150 cycles. My current base is around cycle 5500 and I still haven't used all clean and polluted water and ice in the map and I haven't used my steam geysers for at least 1500 cycles.
 

You not playing the preview branch though.