Maxwell chopping vs Woodie chopping

[Maslak]

Good post. About Woodie staying human though - there's no need to do it, you won't eat a single log during tree farming. Unless you want to totally avoid beaver state, but then it's more like a cone farming. You do get wood, of course, but less.

[Mario384]

As a person who mainly plays both Woodie and Maxwell, I have to say that Maxwell is simply better.  With Woodie, actually getting everything that you chop down takes too long compared to Maxwell, whose able to use 3 loggers and a digger, or 4 loggers and use a shovel himself.  While the Werebeaver does let you dig up stumps without a shovel, Maxwell doesn't need to wait at all to pick them up, and instead can start collecting as soon as the loggers finish.  It's these convenient time-saving measures that make Maxwell equal to Woodie's efficiency early-game, and simply outshine him mid and late-game.  Mind you, this isn't even examining the fact that Maxwell also has other puppets which can accomplish other tasks as well, being the only character who can capitalize on mining rocks if he so desired.

[Szczuku]

WOddIe anD maXWelL bOTh SUCk. JUst uSe PigS. 

[fimmatek]

17 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

JUst uSe PigS.

Why bother with pigs if Bearger does the work for free? (And definitely faster then Maxwell or Woodie, stumps included.)

[MurkyMind]

People still trying to nit pick at this post are at the wrong place, the title of this post is literally Maxwell CHOPPING vs Woodie CHOPPING with a video of them CHOPPING and nothing else, I wanted to see who could just go up to a ton of trees and chop them down quicker because I was under the impression that Maxwell just absolutely beat Woodie in the contest without a doubt if he had 4 other axes, which proved to be wrong by a lot and that was the entire point of the post. This isn't arguing whether Woodie or Maxwell is better, I already stated that wasn't the case in the first post. 

[Dreamscape18459]

48 minutes ago, MurkyMind said:

People still trying to nit pick at this post are at the wrong place, the title of this post is literally Maxwell CHOPPING vs Woodie CHOPPING with a video of them CHOPPING and nothing else, I wanted to see who could just go up to a ton of trees and chop them down quicker because I was under the impression that Maxwell just absolutely beat Woodie in the contest without a doubt if he had 4 other axes, which proved to be wrong by a lot and that was the entire point of the post. This isn't arguing whether Woodie or Maxwell is better, I already stated that wasn't the case in the first post. 

I can't speak for everyone but I replied because I think the content of your video could be improved. Missing stump digging is a major part of chopping tree's. While the original video shows purely chopping potential (which it does well) cleaning up stumps is a major mechanic to woodcutting. If you want to get more valuable feedback consider adding the second video to your original post as most readers will probably not scroll through the thread and see it.

Also I think there are some faster ways to clean tree's as Maxwell than 3 cutters 1 digger. 4 cutters and swapping to 2 diggers upon the last tree felled may be a bit faster. I don't play much Maxwell so I don't get to experiment with him much and usually use 3 cutters, 1 digger.

Finally for Woodie he might be quicker if he ignored the stumps until all the tree's are felled and then use a shovel. (Beaver digs fairly slow and I think he is slower than a shovel.) He could gnaw them until he turns into human if he wanted to save some wood or eat wood and then shovel to be faster.

7 hours ago, MurkyMind said:

Wilson is a waste of time, he's just an average character, he would get blown away by both of them. In reply to the second part of your post, Maxwell came close at his fullest potential but was still beat by 20 seconds as you put it (didn't count myself, didn't feel like it), and that doesn't even take into account all the time he spent preparing getting that nightmare fuel, flint, twigs, etc. whereas Woodie just picked up his axe and started chopping.

Wilson is NOT a waste of time. Obviously he will get blown away but he is the control. This would show us Woodie and Maxwell compared to a character with no woodcutting bonus at all. From this video we know Maxwell and Woodie are comparable woodcutters which is good but we have no idea just how strong their bonus is compared to every other character in the game.

[MurkyMind]

40 minutes ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

we have no idea just how strong their bonus is compared to every other character in the game.

Anyone who has played the game for more than 5 seconds knows, this isn't a science experiment, it was implied that the people reading the forum were actually decent at the game and had a standard knowledge of it by the depth of the topic. If you're that curious, boot up the game and chop down a tree as any character besides them or just Maxwell without his puppets, there you go buddy, have fun

[TheKingDedede]

Why are we getting heated and throwing insults about chopping trees in a game again?

[MurkyMind]

1 minute ago, TheKingDedede said:

Why are we getting heated and throwing insults about chopping trees in a game again?

Yes

[Rellimarual]

How many angels do we think could dance on the head of a pin?

[Dreamscape18459]

13 minutes ago, MurkyMind said:

Anyone who has played the game for more than 5 seconds knows, this isn't a science experiment, it was implied that the people reading the forum were actually decent at the game and had a standard knowledge of it by the depth of the topic.

I respectfully disagree with this. Lots of players who have hundreds, even thousands of hours still debate whether Maxwell or Woodie is the superior lumberjack. (Which is probably the reason you made this video in the first place.)

[MurkyMind]

Just now, Dreamscape18459 said:

I respectfully disagree with this. Lots of players who have hundreds, even thousands of hours still debate whether Maxwell or Woodie is the superior lumberjack. (Which is probably the reason you made this video in the first place.)

Woodie IS the superior lumberjack, just not the grandmaster of picking up things off the ground, funny that that would go to a person who was once the king of the world, but I digress.

[Sicko Hog]

If Woodie's only good at 1/3rd of the lumberjacking process, he's not the superior lumberjack.

[MurkyMind]

3 minutes ago, JellyUltra said:

only good

He does not physically dig up or pick up things slower than the average character, get your facts straight. And the fact that werebeaver can dig up stumps twice as fast makes him above average at 2/3rds. 

[Dreamscape18459]

52 minutes ago, JellyUltra said:

If Woodie's only good at 1/3rd of the lumberjacking process, he's not the superior lumberjack.

He doesn't need to be good at every single aspect to be the potential best lumberjack. If he chopped tree's fast enough to make up for the fact he digs them up poorly he could still be good. Sadly that is not the case here.

I would personally make the following changes to ensure Woodie is the best lumberjack in the game.

Lucy works 50% faster.

Woodie loses 0.75 log meter per swing. (From 1.5)

Beaver gains 0.5 log meter per gnaw. (From 1.)

Beaver chops 25% faster.

Beaver digs stumps 3x faster. (In game this is one gnaw.)

I've played with this for a while and it makes Woodie significantly better at wood collecting, much better than Maxwell in my opinion. I think the biggest issue Maxwell presents is he can have a fourth shadow logger (an additional one from singleplayer.) If Maxwell could only have 3 loggers active at any time I think Woodie would be more competitive with Maxwell. I still think the woodcutting is an issue on Woodie's part though.

Although Klei likely will never touch characters in the base game so in my opinion balance discussions on the Klei forums are a waste of time. They can still be fun though.

Edit: Also one thing that I don't see people mention is that Woodie has a bonus to followers which helps him cut wood. However this perk is nearly useless as they stand around doing nothing when Woodie is in beaver form. (Which he should be in as he cuts wood faster making the followers perk absolutely useless for woodcutting. This is probably the worst designed perk Klei made for DST.)

[Sinister_Fang]

1 hour ago, TheKingDedede said:

Why are we getting heated and throwing insults about chopping trees in a game again?

Isn't that just how the internet works?

[MurkyMind]

7 minutes ago, Dreamscape18459 said:

He doesn't need to be good at every single aspect to be the potential best lumberjack. If he chopped tree's fast enough to make up for the fact he digs them up poorly he could still be good. Sadly that is not the case here.

I would personally make the following changes to ensure Woodie is the best lumberjack in the game.

Lucy works 50% faster.

Woodie loses 0.75 log meter per swing. (From 1.5)

Beaver gains 0.5 log meter per gnaw. (From 1.)

Beaver chops 25% faster.

Beaver digs stumps 3x faster. (In game this is one gnaw.)

I've played with this for a while and it makes Woodie significantly better at wood collecting, much better than Maxwell in my opinion. I think the biggest issue Maxwell presents is he can have a fourth shadow logger (an additional one from singleplayer.) If Maxwell could only have 3 loggers active at any time I think Woodie would be more competitive with Maxwell. I still think the woodcutting is an issue on Woodie's part though.

Although Klei likely will never touch characters in the base game so in my opinion balance discussions on the Klei forums are a waste of time. They can still be fun though.

Edit: Also one thing that I don't see people mention is that Woodie has a bonus to followers which helps him cut wood. However this perk is nearly useless as they stand around doing nothing when Woodie is in beaver form. (Which he should be in as he cuts wood faster making the followers perk absolutely useless for woodcutting. This is probably the worst designed perk Klei made for DST.)

I agree completely, if they just buff werebeaver to do what he does even better he will be a significantly greater character, especially if he mined rocks faster too. A lot of characters have to give up sanity in order to channel their absolute best powers, so Woodie should be no different, I hope this forum brings light on how weak Woodie is to Klei because even if he is the fastest tree CHOPPER he still can not compensate in ways that make him eye level to resource collectors like Maxwell and Wickerbottom. 

[Mario384]

7 minutes ago, MurkyMind said:

I agree completely, if they just buff werebeaver to do what he does even better he will be a significantly greater character, especially if he mined rocks faster too. A lot of characters have to give up sanity in order to channel their absolute best powers, so Woodie should be no different, I hope this forum brings light on how weak Woodie is to Klei because even if he is the fastest tree CHOPPER he still can not compensate in ways that make him eye level to resource collectors like Maxwell and Wickerbottom. 

Beaver buffs are key to the future.  It won't happen though.

[Toros]

First off, I do want to thank OP for the time spent making his videos which I think we can agree shows that Woodie is the best chopper but questionably the best at gathering logs (as you need to pick up the logs and when stump removal is considered slows woodie down considerably).  I do agree that wilson showing how far the two gatherer characters are ahead of Wilson is valuable, but I can understand why you wouldn’t want to make and edit a third video.

Despite outside the strict scope of this thread (“who is the faster chopper?”) I think we’re all thinking about how Woodie and Maxwell compare overall, and unfortunately your evidence supports the general consensus that Woodie doesn’t stack up well at all.

Werebeaver recieves a penalty to digging and mining, requiring 3x as many actions to accomplish the same task.  Maxwell can also reconfigure his workers (and is a great nightmare fuel farmer due to “nightmare lock”) to achieve equal bonus to his mining as to his woodcutting whereas Woodie has no bonuses.  As if that wasn’t enough, Maxwell also has the unique perk of being able to read wickerbottom books and then naturally regenerate his sanity.

It’s an unfortunate situation, and why I wrote a Woodie mod that buffs his werebeaver form.

[Dreamscape18459]

Even if Klei will never touch the game's balance in the future it is nice they made the game so easy to mod so that players who want different balance can easily create it.

Anyway thanks everyone for your comments. Hopefully this was useful/enjoyable to you as well. =)

[Raspberry Shake]

well, who cares. Max is an overall better character anyway.

[fimmatek]

34 minutes ago, Raspberry Milk said:

well, who cares. Max is an overall better character anyway.

Nah, that ain't right. How you doin' ya big hoser?

[Mr Pig]

43 minutes ago, Raspberry Milk said:

well, who cares. Max is an overall better character anyway.

I feel my soul being partially shattered by this statement.

 

In the whole wood gathering and full scheme of it Woodie is less time efficient which considering Maxwell's capabilities isn't surprising. So I would appreciate for Woodie to get improvements but seeing that Klei seems to have no intentions of making this game's supposed lumberjack become the best lumberjack. I guess I will have to rebel against the people telling me to not use Woodie while simultaneously remaining disappointed that he's a couple changes off of being the great Canadian lumberjack he was destined to be.  

In the light that we DO get balance changes (which is a 0.00001% chance but still) I would personally focus buffs to Woodie's human form to put emphasis on the fact that the werebeaver form in itself is a curse and is something he wants to avoid as he states in many of his examines. Considering tree chopping is where his strength is supposed to be however and in the light of how he is "expending sanity for using special magic-y powers" then yes it justifies the werebeaver form falling in line of being compared with other character abilities. So I would consider buffing Woodie's capability of chopping trees both as a human and as a beaver to ensure his role of best lumberjack is proven.

[Toros]

1 hour ago, Mr Pig said:

I feel my soul being partially shattered by this statement.

 

In the whole wood gathering and full scheme of it Woodie is less time efficient which considering Maxwell's capabilities isn't surprising. So I would appreciate for Woodie to get improvements but seeing that Klei seems to have no intentions of making this game's supposed lumberjack become the best lumberjack. I guess I will have to rebel against the people telling me to not use Woodie while simultaneously remaining disappointed that he's a couple changes off of being the great Canadian lumberjack he was destined to be.  

In the light that we DO get balance changes (which is a 0.00001% chance but still) I would personally focus buffs to Woodie's human form to put emphasis on the fact that the werebeaver form in itself is a curse and is something he wants to avoid as he states in many of his examines. Considering tree chopping is where his strength is supposed to be however and in the light of how he is "expending sanity for using special magic-y powers" then yes it justifies the werebeaver form falling in line of being compared with other character abilities. So I would consider buffing Woodie's capability of chopping trees both as a human and as a beaver to ensure his role of best lumberjack is proven.

I'm the opposite where I'm hugely in favor of buffing werebeaver.  Two major reasons for this:

1) Nothing added to Woodie's human form will be as cool or unique as turning into a werebeaver

2) Woodie learning to master his curse and use it to his advantage is both poetic and far more interesting for the player.

[CarlZalph]

Here's a data dump for some numbers to play with on 1 Level 3 tree that takes 15 works to cut:

                  | Frame Data | Cuts Per Swing | Swings Per Second | Swings Needed | Time To Cut
------------------+------------+----------------+-------------------+---------------+-----------------
Woodie            | 10         | 2              | 3                 | 8             | 2.66666666666667
Woodie Mash Click | 6          | 2              | 5                 | 8             | 1.6
Woodie Beaver     | 8          | 4              | 3.75              | 4             | 1.06666666666667
Player Mash Click | 10         | 1              | 3                 | 15            | 5
Player/Shadow     | 14         | 1              | 2.14285714285714  | 15            | 7
2 Shadows         | 14         | 2              | 2.14285714285714  | 8             | 3.73333333333333
3 Shadows         | 14         | 3              | 2.14285714285714  | 5             | 2.33333333333333
4 Shadows         | 14         | 4              | 2.14285714285714  | 4             | 1.86666666666667

Note that this doesn't include wind up and wind down animations or cancelling thereof, which are different for Woodie, nor does it include time to dig up a stump or the time taken to pick up items off of the ground (which include round trip latency time to the server- partially negated by clicking on items before your client picks up the last clicked on item).

Multiple shadows would merely increase the cuts per swing if they're all in perfect unison, since they do it at a flat rate and each count as one cut.

 

 

So yes, for this posting OP is right in that Woodie has the fastest chop speed above Waxwell.

But taking into account of the collection time and how with Woodie it's cut everything, then dig/collect everything vs Waxwell's cut everything and dig/collect everything all at once..

And you'll see Waxwell will come out on top in collecting wood as a resource.