Maxwell chopping vs Woodie chopping

[MurkyMind]

Just now, JohnWatson said:

Literally the entire point of chopping down trees is to collect the logs from them. Stop pretending that picking up the logs doesn't matter or is a trivial thing that shouldn't be considered.

And as I said, it could easily be done by both with no loss of time, the amount of stuff they take to prepare was totally left out of the video, meaning I could've equipped them both with a lazy forager and they would have both collected the logs instantly. Your point is invalid and I'm done trying to explain this to you as you clearly aren't understanding.

[JohnWatson]

I've done a quick google search, and much like in real life, when people chop down trees, they also pick up and bring the wood with them instead of leaving them on the ground. This may sound outrageous to you, but maybe when people chop down trees, what they want to do is not to chop it down as fast as possible, but rather to get wood from the aforementioned trees. Crazy, indeed.

[cezarica]

29 minutes ago, MurkyMind said:

Woodie still stands as the clear factual winner.

Your second clip begs the differ. Your Maxwell buddy did it wrong because he should have been focusing on collecting logs and cones instead of wasting time chopping cos that's what are his minions for: do his bidding!

Now, if Maxwell will pick logs and cones and let his minions do the logging you will see a lot bigger time difference between Maxwell and Woodie.

Also keep in mind that you did this "contest" on day two when treeguards don't spawn, so all the "preparation" you mention is piece of cake compared to Woodie having to run from 2-3 Terrorbreaks and maybe 1-2 tall treeguards while in beaver form (been there done that).

[JohnWatson]

3 minutes ago, cezarica said:

Your second clip begs the differ. Your Maxwell buddy did it wrong because he should have been focusing on collecting logs and cones instead of wasting time chopping cos that's what are his minions for: do his bidding!

Now, if Maxwell will pick logs and cones and let his minions do the logging you will see a lot bigger time difference between Maxwell and Woodie.

Also keep in mind that you did this "contest" on day two when treeguards don't spawn, so all the "preparation" you mention is piece of cake compared to Woodie having to run from 2-3 Terrorbreaks and maybe 1-2 tall treeguards while in beaver form (been there done that).

What I've been trying to explain. But apparently the existence of a ruins item that nobody uses entirely negates that factor according to OP.

Also note that an armoured Maxwell with access to his inventory has a better chance against a Treeguard than an unarmoured Werebeaver already being chased by nightmares.

[MurkyMind]

18 minutes ago, cezarica said:

Your second clip begs the differ. Your Maxwell buddy did it wrong because he should have been focusing on collecting logs and cones instead of wasting time chopping cos that's what are his minions for: do his bidding!

Now, if Maxwell will pick logs and cones and let his minions do the logging you will see a lot bigger time difference between Maxwell and Woodie.

Also keep in mind that you did this "contest" on day two when treeguards don't spawn, so all the "preparation" you mention is piece of cake compared to Woodie having to run from 2-3 Terrorbreaks and maybe 1-2 tall treeguards while in beaver form (been there done that).

The treeguards would spawn the same amount for Maxwell, and if Maxwell wasn't chopping trees with his task it would be far slower, wayyy slower. I wouldn't even want to do a video on that because it wouldn't be fair in his case. And just because I started on day 2 doesn't mean terrorbeaks don't spawn, I didn't go insane until the very end of the video where I had already finished chopping every tree, and as you saw in the first video I didn't even go insane because I spent a lot less time in beaver form (even though I didn't dig up the stumps, but I could just come back and do that later, digging up the stumps was merely in reply to what everyone was saying, but wasn't even necessary to getting my point across.) Woodie would have just as many distractions as Maxwell would have, and at that: when a treeguard spawns Maxwell's shadow puppets go absolutely insane and just start running around in an attempt to not die to it so he would almost stop chopping completely.

[Maslak]

10 minutes ago, MurkyMind said:

Woodie would have just as many distractions as Maxwell would have

 How. Usually you plant way more than just 40 trees. As Woodie you either replant cones every time you turn back to regain sanity or you keep chopping, which makes you a target for shadow creatures during all the chopping process. First option shouldn't be even considered in this case because it's slow.
 You are wrong, Woodie will be "distracted" by shadow creatures while Maxwell even with 4 workers is still sane.

 About treeguards. As John said, Maxwell can wear armor and deal with them. It's hard and risky, but still an option. While Woodie at beaver form suck at combat and would have to turn back to human to fight back. But I agree that treeguards shouldn't be really counted, both characters can't deal with them fast and safe. That's where friend comes in handy.

 Also, Max can hit treeguards with boomerang or ice staff to take their aggro from workers.

[MurkyMind]

Just now, Maslak said:

 How. Usually you plant way more than just 40 trees. As Woodie you either replant cones every time you turn back to regain sanity or you keep chopping, which makes you a target for shadow creatures during all the chopping process. First option shouldn't be even considered in this case because it's slow.
 You are wrong, Woodie will be "distracted" by shadow creatures while Maxwell even with 4 workers is still sane.

 About treeguards. As John said, Maxwell can wear armor and deal with them. It's hard and risky, but still an option. While Woodie at beaver form suck at combat and would have to turn back to human to fight back. But I agree that treeguards shouldn't be really counted, both characters can't deal with them fast and safe. That's where friend comes in handy.

 Also, Max can hit treeguards with boomerang or ice staff to take their aggro from workers.

Woodie can eat cooked cactus or many other easy sanity givers between forms, refer to the title of the forum post to understand the point in it. If I wanted to chop 600000 trees I probably would have changed their inventories just a bit, it was to see who could chop trees faster. Woodie, even when Maxwell was chopping with 4 minions who had axes, still lost. That was the point in the video, and the forum post.

[JohnWatson]

In case of a Treeguard, both characters can run away just fine. Only issue would be when Woodie is transforming, which leaves him immobile. But the big difference comes in when you want to fight back.

When a Treeguard spawns and you're farming wood as Woodie, there's no guarantee that you can easily fight back. Also note that for a decent-sized wood farm, Woodie will very likely also have to deal with nightmares. Best-case scenario is if you're in human form and have already picked up gear. Worst-case scenario is if you get attacked right as you're transforming between states.

It's significantly easier to kill a Treeguard as Maxwell in comparison since he never has to drop his inventory items. Depending on how many loggers you have, nightmares can also be a risk, but then again, they're a bigger risk for Woodie. Simply being able to keep your inventory at all times is a huge advantage as you can deal with any threat at any time.

[Maslak]

Okay, sorry. Treeguards are not and should not be considered due to their random nature.
But I dislike how you totally ignore picking up logs. But it was discussed already.

Woodie can brush teeth and later wash hair. Maxwell can brush teeth and wash hair at the same time.

[MurkyMind]

4 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

since he never has to drop his inventory items

 

[JohnWatson]

13 minutes ago, MurkyMind said:

That was the point in the video, and the forum post.

If your point was that Woodie chops trees faster, then yes, that's correct. However, if we were to be more practical, we're going to look at who gets more wood the fastest, since the main point of even chopping trees is to get wood.

As the number of trees to be chopped for wood grows, Maxwell gradually becomes a better and better choice because of three two distinct advantages: Multi-tasking, no need for sanity management, and full control of inventory items at all times. Meanwhile, Woodie needs to deal with constant interruptions and has to spend time preparing to obtain sanity-restoring food, which will inevitably need to be dropped on the ground and picked back up. Over and over again.

[MurkyMind]

2 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

Woodie needs to deal with constant interruptions and has to spend time preparing to obtain sanity-restoring food, which will inevitably need to be dropped on the ground and picked back up. Over and over again.

Why do you keep on mentioning Woodie dropping his items when he becomes a werebeaver, are you actually drunk? In Dont Starve Together he drops absolutely nothing but the things he has equipped, he can leave armor and weapons to fight in his inventory, along with sanity restoring food and literally never lose them, how dumb are you?

[JohnWatson]

Just now, MurkyMind said:

Why do you keep on mentioning Woodie dropping his items when he becomes a werebeaver, are you actually drunk? In Dont Starve Together he drops absolutely nothing but the things he has equipped, he can leave inventory and weapons to fight in his inventory, along with sanity restoring food and literally never lose them, how dumb are you?

Ah, right, he only drops Lucy. That's a dumb mistake, honestly.

[MurkyMind]

Just now, JohnWatson said:

Ah, right, he only drops Lucy. That's a dumb mistake, honestly.

Yes, and the tradeoff for being able to bite trees down in 3-4 chomps outweighs the sanity drain you get for about 10 seconds in werebeaver form by a mile. 

[JohnWatson]

9 minutes ago, MurkyMind said:

Yes, and the tradeoff for being able to bite trees down in 3-4 chomps outweighs the sanity drain you get for about 10 seconds in werebeaver form by a mile. 

In a wood farm scenario, Woodie loses around 45-50 sanity before being able to transform back to human form, so you'd need to eat sanity-restoring items after 4 transformations.

Though, I'm not saying that Woodie is terrible for farming wood, there is no doubt he's better than most characters. My point is that Maxwell is less risky, is faster as the number of trees you need to chop down grows, and requires less preparation (depending on if you think nightmare fuel is easier to get than cactus, greencaps, etc)

[MurkyMind]

21 minutes ago, Maslak said:

Okay, sorry. Treeguards are not and should not be considered due to their random nature.
But I dislike how you totally ignore picking up logs. But it was discussed already.

Woodie can brush teeth and later wash hair. Maxwell can brush teeth and wash hair at the same time.

Maxwell also takes way too much time to get ready. Take into account all the preparation he needs vs a Woodie who literally needs absolutely nothing but what he started with, he still wins. 

[JohnWatson]

To be fair, Maxwell is only faster if you're working alone. Woodie + someone else to dig up stumps and pick up drops would probably be significantly faster than Woodie and can help fight a Treeguard. However, obviously two players will perform better than one, I'm just saying that Maxwell is faster if nobody else is around but Woodie is faster with the help of a second player.

[MurkyMind]

4 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

To be fair, Maxwell is only faster if you're working alone. Woodie + someone else to dig up stumps and pick up drops would probably be significantly faster than Woodie and can help fight a Treeguard. However, obviously two players will perform better than one, I'm just saying that Maxwell is faster if nobody else is around but Woodie is faster with the help of a second player.

Still wasn't the point in the forum post, my point remains unchanged. 

[JohnWatson]

Just now, MurkyMind said:

Still wasn't the point in the forum post, my point remains unchanged. 

You are correct in your point that Woodie chops faster, I think that's just an objective fact. Not really disagreeing with that, but I believe that Maxwell is faster at getting wood alone. About preparation time, it really depends on if you find that nightmare fuel is easier to get than cacti or greencaps.

[Palecwsmalec1]

1 hour ago, MurkyMind said:

Maxwell also takes way too much time to get ready. Take into account all the preparation he needs vs a Woodie who literally needs absolutely nothing but what he started with, he still wins. 

grab 3 flint and 3 sticks, boom, youre ready to chop

admittedly it does take longer if you craft a shovel but still

[MrDeepDarkmind]

I'm just going to say

Maxwell legit replaces woodie lmao, picking up logs does matter so maxwell basically beats woodie on this contest, please listen to @JohnWatson he knows what he is talking about because he has a big brain like Jimmy neutron

[JohnWatson]

10 minutes ago, MrDeepDarkmind said:

please listen to @JohnWatson he knows what he is talking about

no i don't

[MrDeepDarkmind]

9 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

no i don't

yes you do

why else would you make a jimbo neutron mod

[Sicko Hog]

2 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

In case of a Treeguard, both characters can run away just fine. Only issue would be when Woodie is transforming, which leaves him immobile. But the big difference comes in when you want to fight back.

When a Treeguard spawns and you're farming wood as Woodie, there's no guarantee that you can easily fight back. Also note that for a decent-sized wood farm, Woodie will very likely also have to deal with nightmares. Best-case scenario is if you're in human form and have already picked up gear. Worst-case scenario is if you get attacked right as you're transforming between states.

It's significantly easier to kill a Treeguard as Maxwell in comparison since he never has to drop his inventory items. Depending on how many loggers you have, nightmares can also be a risk, but then again, they're a bigger risk for Woodie. Simply being able to keep your inventory at all times is a huge advantage as you can deal with any threat at any time.

treeguards don't matter because you can run from them while you wear the lazy forager to pick up your logs. ths is not a combat video (i prefer to play the game without fighting, using large beefalo herds when necessary) so fighting the treeguard is not an option

[pedregales]

The problem with most of this analysis is that you left out a lot of the process in the beginning, and are still leaving out important data. Here some analysis to take in account.

Preparation Time and Cost.

Woodie is already prepared from the get-go. Maybe you can add a shovel if you want. Otherwise, absolutely no time for preparation.

Maxwell needs exactly 8 nightmare fuel, plus 6 twigs and flints (with this you can either go 4 choppers with Maxwell using shovel -can also take an axe for 1 flint and twig less-, OR 3 choppers, 1 digger, and Maxwell using axe; but the Maxwell with an axe is a bit more inefficient -or so I feel- in the long run despite the faster "click-click chopper", which is not really a feature but an exploit -it's usage is valid because of how repetitive this task is, but is an exploit nonetheless-). All 3 materials needed are fairly common, easy to obtain, and overall necessary for a long term survival, so Maxwell doesn't really need to go out of the ordinary to be prepared for chopping trees, that considered, is is of course much more costly. An extra: killing your shadow puppets yourself grants you 1 nightmare fuel per shadow puppet, meaning that for the next chopping frenzy, you only need 4 nightmare fuel instead of 8, given none of your puppets were killed by a treeguard or something.

Woodie obviously wins this round by being more cost efficient, and slightly more time efficient.

Chopping Time, Stump Digging, and Log Picking.

Chopping faster is 1 thing, but the point of chopping trees is to get logs, so naturally you have to pick them up from the floor and dig up stumps (though, according to FreyaMaluk this is not necessary as they decay after 5 days -evergreens only-, I don't know if they become logs or simply disappear and I can't find info about it; either way I consider it a waste of time or resources respectively, but I guess this can be considered).

Now, who is actually better? Logic says it should be Maxwell because he can use 4 choppers to chop the trees while he picks up the logs and digs up stumps, doing 3 tasks at the same time; while Woodie can chop and pick logs up in his human form (plus dig stumps if he has a shovel), while the beaver can only chop and dig stumps (but can't pick things up), but Woodie can only do 1 action at a time, even if he can do 1 of them 4 times faster than any other character. Another thing to take in account is that Woodie needs logs to stay human, meaning that a part of the product gathered by Woodie is going to be used on Woodie alone, while Maxwell's product is going to be used for whatever is needed for the team (this does include Woodie, though). In any case, one thing is what logic dictates, another is what proof demonstrates. Of course, your second video does give more credit to Maxwell than Woodie considering wood stumps.