Does Wes make sense in DST?

[Asparagus]

16 minutes ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

If that's how you define balance then okay, I guess, but that is definitely not how the majority of the gaming community defines it. And most of the big-name fighting games in fact endeavor to maintain balance amongst their rosters, adjusting characters as necessary to ensure they all have roles in which they shine. Obviously they rarely if ever reach that magical point of PERFECT balance, but things don't have to be perfectly described by a word to be describable by that word. And Klei very obviously strove for balance among (most) of the DST roster; just take a look at the changes to Woodie, or giving WX higher base stats.

Hi there...

so...

DS/DST isn't actually a "Fighting Game" like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter... it's an Adventure Survival (Horror) Game... think RPGs... there are multiple classes with multiple skill sets... you got mages, summoners, assassins, brutes, etc... or even TF2 with the Snipers, Scouts, etc...Now in terms of "balancing" in DST as we look at Willow, it was because of the outcry by the community that they had to change her up a bit because of people who abuse her abilities to grief (but come on, anyone can make a torch and do the same)... but for all intents and purposes, she was supposed to still be the Fire Starter with her ability to conjure flames from nothing and with that, be immune to it... this was supposed to be where she shines...

50 minutes ago, Asparagus said:

 He brings effective Nightmare Fuel Farming methods to the table... his balloons  can get him insane quickly and then you can farm as many nightmares as you  like... then you can have more dark swords or whatever for everyone... plus,  have you tried popping a balloon field while nightmares are around? glorious XD

 He makes sense in DST in that he is the underdog... it is up to the player to  make him succeed or not...

 From what I see his most effective asset is his Balloons that as I stated will make  him go insane quickly and you and your group can farm nightmares indefinitely.

37 minutes ago, TalZahn said:

Ah! Never thought of that! Craft him a hambat and armor, and let him go to town on some nightmares! It may not be necessarily an 'intended' perk, but it gets the job done pretty fast! I'm actually sold on this idea.

Other than dancing on the edge of darkness, staying completely soaked, or using greencaps and other sanity foods, Wes has it easiest in getting the nightmare creatures! I suppose caves could make this ability obsolete eventually, but it's not too dissimilar to get immunity to fire with the scalemail (Willow) or getting a good source of beard hair from bunnymen/shadow splumonkeys/etc (Wilson), having the spiderqueen hat (Webber), or crafting better equipment than what wigfrid has.

Wes is fine as he is... he is the runt of the litter, but not completely useless... if he's too much of an issue for some, they why not play as him at all? Those who main Wes can attest to his greatness... he serves as a Challenge for the love of Charlie! He makes sense in that he is difficult, but he can be useful given the right player! He can even tank Deerclops by himself if given training... and no I don't think he's useless... he brings, from what the exchange above has shown a good deal for a group.

But I do need to know your personal preferences as to what changes should be made to him... 

[BlindGunner]

8 minutes ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

Being useless isn't being challenging, though. It's just being useless.

Is it not hard to complete a task with a tool that is useless..? 

[Ysulyan]

18 minutes ago, Asparagus said:

plus,  have you tried popping a balloon field while nightmares are around trapping a player? glorious XD

blood for blood god ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Faintly Macabre]

18 minutes ago, Asparagus said:

DS/DST isn't actually a "Fighting Game" like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter

The genre does not change what balance means. TF2, on that note, balances by giving all of the available characters a niche to fill and something to contribute to the team. And RPGs are pretty infamous for having poorly balanced elements, like unit classes that completely invalidate any other choices. So... hi.

18 minutes ago, Asparagus said:

they why not play as him at all?

Don't Starve Together. It's not about me not wanting to play as him. I wish you all would at least try to keep up.

As for using his balloons to go insane and farm nightmare, I guess that's a thing? Unless I'm mistaken though, he's the only one who can fight those nightmares, and really, it's so easy to go off your rocker this feels like a very minimal upside.

18 minutes ago, Asparagus said:

But I do need to know your personal preferences as to what changes should be made to him... 

See, I don't know. I guess I hoped in starting a discussion I could find some people with some workable ideas, but mostly I've gotten people shrugging me off with non-arguments.

 

19 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I think you've narrowed your mind too much to your own opinion.

What would you call this? His first post, right on the front page. Opinion's got very little to do with it. He was trying to blow me off by summarizing my concern back to me in a way that made it sound dumb.

7 hours ago, Soto8969 said:

So the character that is supposed to be used as a "hardcore" mode doesn't help the group?

 

[CameoAppearance]

Actually, other people can fight your shadow creatures once you've aggroed them! But you have to either be insane enough to see them yourself, or wave the cursor around near them until the shadow creatures light up on mouseover.

Also, they get the sanity bonus from killing them; you, the critically insane player, get nothing. So that's even better, if you've got a player you're deliberately keeping insane as a nightmare fuel farm. Endless supply of shadows, so long as the nightmare farmer doesn't actually die.

[Faintly Macabre]

30 minutes ago, BlindGunner said:

Is it not hard to complete a task with a tool that is useless..? 

You have other tools you can use, is the thing. He's just not complimenting any of the other tools in the box.

6 minutes ago, CameoAppearance said:

Actually, other people can fight your shadow creatures once you've aggroed them! But you have to either be insane enough to see them yourself, or wave the cursor around near them until the shadow creatures light up on mouseover.

Also, they get the sanity bonus from killing them; you, the critically insane player, get nothing. So that's even better, if you've got a player you're deliberately keeping insane as a nightmare fuel farm. Endless supply of shadows, so long as the nightmare farmer doesn't actually die.

Ahh, okay. I dunno though; I still feel like this is kind of weak. I don't generally find myself having a lot of difficulty staying insane when I want to farm nightmare fuel. But I suppose it's definitely something.

[Asparagus]

5 minutes ago, CameoAppearance said:

or wave the cursor around near them until the shadow creatures light up on mouseover.

Or just hit CTRL+F while in the vicinity of said insane person...

19 minutes ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

The genre does not change what balance means. TF2, on that note, balances by giving all of the available characters a niche to fill and something to contribute to the team. And RPGs are pretty infamous for having poorly balanced elements, like unit classes that completely invalidate any other choices. So... hi.

Well, that was to point out your comment regarding what the "majority" of the gaming community's view on "balance" is...

1 hour ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

If that's how you define balance then okay, I guess, but that is definitely not how the majority of the gaming community defines it. And most of the big-name fighting games in fact endeavor to maintain balance amongst their rosters, adjusting characters as necessary to ensure they all have roles in which they shine. Obviously they rarely if ever reach that magical point of PERFECT balance, but things don't have to be perfectly described by a word to be describable by that word. And Klei very obviously strove for balance among (most) of the DST roster; just take a look at the changes to Woodie, or giving WX higher base stats.

Now, what we're all (wel, most... ok just me then...) saying is, he has some set of skills that will let him be of use... though they may not be stated up front, it is up to the player to think about what to do and that is one of the charms that Wes brings... he draws out the intuition needed in Single-player into DST... just saying... that's probably why you see a ton of non-tangible uses for him mentioned... now as the player, make a good show of him... :T

(let the argument continue I suppose if it wasn't clear...)

[Faintly Macabre]

27 minutes ago, Asparagus said:

Well, that was to point out your comment regarding what the "majority" of the gaming community's view on "balance" is...

What about it, though? It seemed like you were trying to contest that balance meant something different here, but I don't think it does/should. (Belatedly, I don't think what was done to Willow would traditionally be called "balancing"; unless you think they were trying to make all characters equally appealing to griefers for their griefing needs. ) And I guess I should clarify that I'm talking about what balance means specifically to the multiplayer gaming community, as single player obviously has some different standards. RPGs are generally single-player, so what the multiplayer community would consider balance is less of a priority to the devs. Newer RPGs often have multiplayer aspects, such as battles, and if no effort is made to adjust the game so that there's no guaranteed OHKO units to be fielded, you'll find the people who play those games often don't like the multiplayer because they don't like that sort of thing being the only way to win. Unbalanced, they'll often call it.

P.S.: Removed my overly hostile posts. Apologies to @Soto8969. Still don't appreciate the brush off, but shouldn't have gotten that ugly all the same.

[PanAzej]

Wes is underpowered, not useless. And he's loved for being underpowered, because it's a bit "harder" in a survival game, in which after you learn all the tricks, the game becomes too easy.

You can't really compare this situation to TF2 or anything, because it's not that you encounter real people. You learn to beat up bots. After learning all patterns you don't get hit, knowing where to set up grants you food and resources. Wes can do just as good as other characters, and one player more on the team is always better. Unless he's bad at the game, then at this point he should play a different character.

Balloons are an easy way to farm Nightmare Fuel, as it has been said. Yes, it's not that great and other character can achieve this using items, but the same can be said about DST Willow.

Also, buffing Wes just now would probably result in a huge backlash from fans, but who knows.

 

tl;dr Wes is not useless, he's just not efficient, and player's skill makes up for it.

[Cryogen]

In perspective of the game, Wes can be taken as a high maintainance, low rewarding character because of his given perks which gives all of his downsides. There is an exception in his DS counterpart, as it is all alone and what you've done is your consequences. But in DST, in game perspective, his perks can drag others strength.

So what can Wes do to the best of his abilities? It depends to the player playing as him. Even ones drawbacks can be covered as long as with the right knowledge, experiences and dutifully masteral abilities.

And if you think of what I said in the 2nd paragraph to be utterly nonsense. Think of what he can have of capability. It's the player's choice of how Wes would be managed and used of. That is why in almost everything you learn to strive.

[Faintly Macabre]

2 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

Wes is underpowered, not useless. And he's loved for being underpowered, because it's a bit "harder" in a survival game, in which after you learn all the tricks, the game becomes too easy.

You can't really compare this situation to TF2 or anything, because it's not that you encounter real people. You learn to beat up bots. After learning all patterns you don't get hit, knowing where to set up grants you food and resources. Wes can do just as good as other characters, because one player more is always better. Unless he's bad at the game, then at this point he should play a different character.

Balloons are an easy way to farm Nightmare Fuel, as it has been said. Yes, it's not that great and other character can achieve this using items, but the same can be said about DST Willow.

Also, buffing Wes just now would probably result in a huge backlash from fans, but who knows.

 

tl;dr Wes is not useless, he's just not efficient, and player's skill makes up for it.

I'm not actually the one who brought up TF2, but balance is not exclusive to PvP content. MMOs try to maintain some balance among classes for their raid content, for example, so that every class choice feels viable. But no, he can't do just as good as other characters; whatever a given player can do as Wes, they could do better as another character.

WHICH IS FINE. If that's what people really want, then great. You won't catch me taking him to other players' servers as I'd rather give them books or easy wood-chopping or something they don't already have/could use more of, but whatever. I just don't see how this precludes giving him something unique to offer a server he plays on. I guess this balloon nightmare fuel thing is a thing, but I gotta say, it won't make me cringe any less when I see a Wes has joined my game when we could have used some Wigfrid or Maxwell love.

[WildWesternWilson]

8 hours ago, SinisterSmiles said:

I keep seeing a lot of these posts lately. "Should X be changed for DST because X doesn't provide a benefit to the team?" 

Personally I feel that a team can do well with any experienced player (yes even a Wes can help) but it depends completely on the player themselves. Anyone can collect resources, contribute to a base, help kill mobs but some characters just have an easier time than others. 

The only useless characters are the players themselves. 

#allWesarebeautiful

#WesLivesMatter

[WildWesternWilson]

But seriously though. I don't play Wes much, but I know he isn't unbalanced. Yes, while he is statistically worse than everyone with a higher hunger loss, a lower hunger bar, taking longer to kill things, et cetera, it's more of a psychological thing that makes him good; think about it for a moment. If you set out with a distinct disadvantage, shouldn't that make you want to try harder to achieve something or even be a valuable asset? If you can get into that, combine that with kiting and near constant work, and hey! Wes actually might help himself --- and of course, everyone else --- out. In fact, he has an infinite (if I remember correctly) starting item that lets him not only decorate the base, but help farm Nightmare Fuel since he can easily go insane. 

 

And look at his skins. Absolutely beautiful. 

 

[Asparagus]

So we're still at this huh...

tl;dr version:

Wes makes sense in DST... he is fine as he is as to stay true to DS lore and mechanics, Wes serves as a Challenge Character but he in no way is terrible in the sense that the player is the one who dictates his survival (i.e. if you're a bad player he dies, if you're good enough, you can supply your team with nightmare fuel or even tank a deerclops!) He goes hungry fast so you need to be resourceful and make better choices on what you cook (meatballs, the bane of my existence, but it is cheap and easy to make, make bacon and eggs or something like honey ham T_T) He is also frail so ya need ta use yer melon und make better use of weapons... As it has been repeated over and over, each character has their quirks and charms and those make up for interesting and different play styles... seriously, the number of people vouching for Wes should be enough to answer your OP "Does Wes Make Sense in DST?"

[VexTheHex]

Wes is fine, I enjoy playing him to a degree myself while I find WX lacking and Wigfrid broken. The only thing that keeps me from playing him really is the lack of dialogue. It's part of being a mime, but I love asking my buddies to all inspect something new with me to see the comments. 

[or1239]

As someone who was  going to make this kind of thread myself i feel like i got to  say my ma thing.

Wes should remain a challenge charactor yes, But we can't deny that the game has changed. Its no longer just you alone we got other players around. Wes hunger drain can be a burden and hurt the team trying to keep him alive inless its a pro player. if its different play style  your after then go ahead (even though i feel like he doesn't mix well, especially to cooperative mode)

but wes just has to bring something to the table For others atleast .And i think the idea of it just effecting others but him if its beneficial, and only him if its bad is perfect for him.  At the very least i don't want wes hurting other players just because he is wes. If he didn't require extra food and drained sanity as a ghost i wouldn't even mind him. 

A sort of random balloon popping effect can work for him.(and uhh Being able to go insane to provide nightmere fual is abit abscure)

[SuperPsiPower]

4 hours ago, Axehilt said:

 

Wow why did everyone gang up on this guy with his completely valid and logical point?

 

There is a difference between ganging up on someone and giving constructive criticism. 

There is no way to bring any sort of new playstyle out of wes because of how he is now. When they said "balance" they more or less excluded wes cause he functions perfectly the way he does now, he was "balanced" on release by limiting his balloons in a world, sanity cost for a balloon, and the fact others can't use it.

And for arguments sake, @Clwnbaby recently showed me that with his balloons you can effectively farm for nightmare fuel which is pretty helpful for magic.

[Shian]

Basically I think OP is saying that they dislike when a new player joins a server and picks Wes when they could have picked another character that would have benefited everyone.

But by the same logic, if there is everyone but Wigfrid, or Wickerbottom, or Webber in a server then you HAVE to pick the character who is missing so that everyone can benefit.

But in practice? People pick the character THEY like because THEY want to play it, and that's why people often pick duplicates even when they could've filled another niche and helped everyone. 

Your opinion seems to stem from a sense of entitlement, that everyone who joins a server has to co-operate and think of what's best for the team, but that's not the case. Yes, some people do take that into consideration and pick the character that will help the most, but that's their choice, and if they pick the 7th Wigfrid that's their choice too.

 

Summary: Yes, Wes makes sense. The idea that he does not comes from a sense of entitlement that just because it's "together" everyone has to sacrifice their choices so everyone can benefit. In reality "together" means you have to take the good with the bad, even if it's all bad.

[Clwnbaby]

Im not gonna lie I didn't read every post but I read a lot and got the gist of everyone's complaints and outlook on Wes.  I get asked questions like this often in my stream not just of Wes but of all character as well as everyone's two must know "Who's your favorite character," and "Who is the best character."  My answer is the same all the time and Ill share here cause it pretty much applies to this topic.  They're all the same to me.  In the end the character does very little to the game play of Don't Starve, its all in the player.

  People argue Wes is a burden, no the player is a burden.  When I play Wes I build the same base, in the same amount of time and contribute EXACTLY the same amount to the group.  Another argument mentioned above, he brings very little or has no contributing factor.  Again, the player does very little and contributes nothing.  All characters and items in this game are functional and useful, you just got figure out what it is.  As Super mentioned he recently saw how effectively Wes can farm nightmare fuel in Together and it is a point I bring up in my stream when people say "Balloon's are useless."  I always say, no they're not, you just got to figure out what to use them for.  Im sure yes the devs thought lets make this guy have a useless item and we the players were clever enough to figure out just how to use said useless item. 

That's the fun of this game!  They give you a bunch of stuff and say figure it out.  There is no step by step guide that spells out everything for you right away cause honestly, where is the fun in that?  Yeah its not noob friendly but as the devs stated and as its been mentioned, Wes is not the noob character.  He's the character you pick when you know what you're doing.  The other comparison I have is I always call Webber easy mode and people always ask "why?" and disagree with me.  I explain that yeah in a newer player's hand Webber isn't easy mode, but in the hands of a seasoned veteran its no contest.  Wes is much the same idea and should be approached as such. 

Wes doesn't need any balancing or what you guys are really asking for buffing he's fine.   Yeah in PvP its kind of a drag because how do you bring him up to par, but at the same time if you running around PvP and a Wes slays you just know, THAT GUY KNOWS HOW TO PVP! 

In conclusion there isn't anything wrong with the character it's the players that are the problem.  Thats part of the fun of the game, the characters help the players grow and become better at the game until one day we are all a nation of Wes.

Wes master race!

[AnonymousKoala]

 

13 hours ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

Apples and oranges; this post isn't about the fact that he doesn't add to the team, it's about the fact that he wholly detracts from it, with nothing to give back. A team can do well composed entirely of Weses if they're experienced, but that doesn't change the fact that he's almost nothing but a burden.

Does Willow give anything back? Not really. 

Does wes detract from the team? Not really. A wes can do his things just as well as the rest. Sure, it'll take longer to finish up fights. Sure, occasionally you'll give Wes your meatballs because he needs it more. But is he leeching off of you? Nope. 

And he's also not that much of a burden. Wendy's weak as well. No talking is hardly much of an issue when you have someone else to talk for you/actual in game noises. Hunger? So he can starve. Food is still plentiful. 

9 hours ago, TheHalcyonOne said:

If you guys like Wes the way he is that's fine, but "only a drain if you're unskilled" or "only players are useless, not characters" arguments are bunk. You have a finite number of players playing at any given time, and anybody who's playing Wes is contributing 25% less damage than he could easily be and requires 25% more hunger restoration to keep alive. And he brings... base decor, apparently. I don't think that makes sense for Don't Starve Together. If you do... okie-doke.

Did anyone force to play him though?

Wes is essentially...a tag. If someone picks wes, and doesn't die on say, day 2, you know "ok this person most likely knows his **** pretty well. AKA you know, this guy brings exprience to the team.

[Asparagus]

O__O

Most of the points and arguements are just being rerun again and again... so might I suggest a lock before this gets out of hand?

Or if there are more points to be made then please go on ahead but please refrain from using banned words... thank you.

 

[or1239]

1 hour ago, Asparagus said:

O__O

Most of the points and arguements are just being rerun again and again... so might I suggest a lock before this gets out of hand?

Or if there are more points to be made then please go on ahead but please refrain from using banned words... thank you.

 

alright so, i would like to bring an alternative question if i may.

Should we give Wes more Tools to support other players ? (ONLY other players)

for example the sanity boost from balloons that was suggested by @TalZahn

Every character can  already bring something to the table by default!, they can all help by sharing  materials from basically playing the game (resources, food, and hitting things together) but every character beside Wes can bring something PAST that . Wilson-beard hairs Willow- teddy and lighter etc, etc, and hey! even Wes apparently can already bring his own things as mentioned here, balloons can potentially  distract enemies and help farm nightmares fuel, that's already something, so why not give him more things like that? 

something that will benefit other players only and won't change anything about Wes himself. that way he can contribute to and compliment other character and players in a way that no other character can and he would still stay the lovable hardcore character he is , and people will enjoy having him around more.

why not? ;-;

[WildWesternWilson]

At this point, I think we really are treading ground that has been covered in dirt, so to speak. 

 

Basically: Wes is fine, if you have a Wes that tends to =  PRO PLAYA BRUH

[Faintly Macabre]

I'm otherwise done with this since the arguments continue to be the same crap over and over, but

6 hours ago, Shian said:

entitlement

No. Just no. It's not "entitlement" to wish somebody had added an otherwise absent Wigfrid to the mix instead of a third Webber or whatever. It's just how I feel; it's how I do things, and how I wish others did things. I don't think I deserve or have a right to anything, so take your overly charged e-word and shove it.

[Aquaterion]

I don't get whats up with the recent uprise of Complaints "X CHARACTER LACKS Y".. Ever since maxwell came to DST, people haven't stopped complaining!