[Game Update] - 599141

[Faintly Macabre]

2 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

You are bringing a concept to justify that failures in development (exploit) are normal. Dude, this argument doesn't make sense.

And you are characterizing oversights in development that don't hurt anybody as failures. Dude, this argument doesn't make sense.

[allmeitysk]

Lureplant cheeses make such a big topic in this community. Easy to solve, dont care about what others do. Fix it for fight purposes obviously. Or solve a bigger problem why people use lureplants. I use it to farm moon rock, there is currently no efficient way how to obtain large amount of moon rock that would satisfy my need in my megabases. 

[AveHortor]

11 hours ago, V2C said:

 

• Lureplants can now be trampled by creatures that can trample through obstacles and structures.

 

Welp, time to use Spider Dens.

  

9 hours ago, V2C said:

We are likely going to change the Lureplant fix to only affect the newer content.  We decided to fix this now because of how it affected the Scrappy Werepig before he could even reach the Junk Pile to pick up his first weapon.

Nvm, bless. 

Edited March 20, 2024 by AveHortor

[kroban]

4 hours ago, Yuuko said:

With AFW I can go back and re-fight it different ways.  I can do it with nm amulets and weather pains, or skip the weather pains and kite him around, or carefully balance sanity loss and gains with hivehat vs sanity recovery foods, or yes stick him with a lure plant and hold F until he's dead.  Because these are all options I can re-play the fight multiple times and enjoy it each time without quitting DST and playing something different.

Thats the thing, you DON'T.

You dont fight AFW with the cheese lureplant, you are watching a husk of what the boss is supposed to be getting killed by something that isnt even the player, the hondius/es. Its not a "fight" no matter how much you are trying to sell it as "ohh but the creativity, the sandbox, the replayability, player expression and variance". Its a cheese, plain and simple, you are literally skipping the entire fight using a "non-legit" method. You are not taking even 1 hit from the boss because he just can't attack you. ITS NOT a fight.

And hey, I use this cheese all the time, and I understand why. FW fight is disgusting and specially to do solo, which is what most players want to do. Even in multiplayer, because they want to get a full ruins for themselves. And the whole route pre-FW is already tiredsome enough with the whole farming heart, finding fossils, the key, going to the atrium, setting up the skeleton, etc.

The fight itself is a huge pain, most players (myself included) end up "locked with the immortal FW" wastin resources because of his horrible hands and wovens CDs, and the legit fight also requires lots of farming and using multiple different items that can easily make the inventory a whole mess in the middle of the fight etc etc.

So yes, I can understand this cheese being a "necessary evil" for most players right now. But thats because the fight itself is horrible. That doesnt change the fact that the lureplant cheese IS a cheese. Its not "player creativity" when 99% of the players are now just skipping the entire fight because of how easy it is to setup the cheese - 2 lureplants and a hondius (or even Walter's slingshot lol).

What Klei SHOULD do is reworking the entire fight (putting longer CD's on his abilities, maybe adding another attack so FW uses less hands, adding something in the area that can be used as a legit advantage) and THEN remove the lureplant cheese. This is exactly what they did with Ancient Guardian. You can still cheese it, but who even does that now? the fight has a mechanic that you can use for advantage, its easily doable without having to spend an entire year just farming things for 1 fight, unlike FW's fight.

Edited March 20, 2024 by kroban

[Copyafriend]

15 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Making a game worse for fun? I won't ever see this as a good thing. We finally got a replacement for lureplant item deletion and in the same update its not able to delete all items.

Its a seasonal item that you’ll recieve in low amounts and can be destroyed by feeding it to pigmen. Its just not that serious. It’s pretty funny from a “we fixed a bug, this item definitely is too annoying to be destroyed this easily” standpoint 

[Cruvimaster]

10 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

And you are characterizing oversights in development that don't hurt anybody as failures. Dude, this argument doesn't make sense.

In fact, I even liked that Klei took a stand for something so old. Everything people say on the Forum can be countered with this.

Just don't forget that these are the developer's own words: "When we have time, we want to address some of the issues with the old fights"

Edited March 20, 2024 by Cruvimaster

[Captain_Rage]

14 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

A big selling point for DST is sandbox.

Sandbox game definition: A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity. to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or alternatively with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective.

If we have only one way to kill a boss and everything else is "fixed" that part of the game isn't sandbox anymore.

It is still a selling point. A selling point for any game ought to be its polish (unless you are looking for a game with a notorious meme factor). Developers who design a game well also take pride in making it look and play out solid. It happens that unintended glitches or omissions make a game more popular or fun but in this case blocking one of the final bosses which is supposed to be scary and tricky to tackle with a Lureplant makes the game feel less polished.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Captain_Rage said:

blocking one of the final bosses with a Lureplant makes the game feel less polished

why care about that? most people won't know about this before buying the game and likely won't figure it out on their own after buying it

[cropo]

11 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

It is still a selling point. A selling point for any game ought to be its polish (unless you are looking for a game with a notorious meme factor). Developers who design a game well also take pride in making it look and play out solid. It happens that unintended glitches or omissions make a game more popular or fun but in this case blocking one of the final bosses which is supposed to be scary and tricky to tackle with a Lureplant makes the game feel less polished.

No it doesn't. No one in Skyrim complained about the enchanting glitch, in fact most casual players I talk to mention it like it was the most big-brained exploit they could ever do. Bethesda intentionally kept the goofy giant's club smashing you into orbit, and specifically made sure to keep the glitch of putting pots on an NPC's head to blind them from you stealing.

 

When Nintendo remastered Majora's mask, they intentionally left in some of the harmless glitches that were player-activated like using the fierce diety mask in the overworld, because they were fun and made the games a lot more interesting beyond their intended gameplay loops.

 

Polish doesn't really involve quirky glitches that you have to intentionally try to do yourself to get it to work, it would involve involuntary glitches that inflict damage on the gameplay regardless of the players own personal input. 

 

This argument position just seems so outlandish and wild to me, like...not just you, everyone trying to seriously argue this. Like what the hell man...

Edited March 20, 2024 by cropo

[kroban]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

why care about that? most people won't know about this before buying the game and likely won't figure it out on their own after buying it

A new player enters on a server, first time checking out the game. Spends a couple weeks learning about it, fights some bosses, and then learns about Fuelweaver being basically THE boss from caves. Goes there with "vet players" to "kill him", only to find out that they are just locking the boss in place with some plants, skipping the entire fight, while some laser eye kills it from the distance while the vet player uses /carol and is afk waiting for the boss to die. 

This is kind of what happened to me after spending years in DS and moving out to try DST, like, 6 years ago . As much as I love DST, the fact that one of the current "main" bosses from the game can just get cheesed like this looks horrible for the game.

[TalhaStarve]

İm soooo confused why yaal crying about a cheese getting removed.Playing till spring or killing a already required boss is not the price for killing the litteral end boss.İf you are bad just practice what is the matter with this things?You are litterly waiting afk for a end game boss to die hıw can this satisfie you? 

[grm9]

1 minute ago, kroban said:

A new player enters on a server, first time checking out the game. Spends a couple weeks learning about it, fights some bosses, and then learns about Fuelweaver being basically THE boss from caves. Goes there with "vet players" to "kill him", only to find out that they are just locking the boss in place with some plants, skipping the entire fight, while some laser eye kills it from the distance while the vet player uses /carol and is afk waiting for the boss to die. 

This is kind of what happened to me after spending years in DS and moving out to try DST, like, 6 years ago . As much as I love DST, the fact that one of the current "main" bosses from the game can just get cheesed like this looks horrible for the game

you still continued playing and learned about how to kill the boss without cheese after that so it probably wasn't an issue, i'd be surprised if someone quit DST after seeing FW cheese

[NoodlemanNed]

can you efficiency nuts just let people play how they like? Not everyone is a robot who enjoys fighting a boss the same way dozens of times, people need variety. You might hate how people choose to fight a boss but at least what they do has no effect on you. Nobody is going to ever use lureplant cheese by accident, its something you only see if players want to use it.

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, TalhaStarve said:

İm soooo confused why yaal crying about a cheese getting removed

learn how to talk to people so they answer instead of thinking that you're a troll or not worth their time

6 minutes ago, TalhaStarve said:

İf you are bad just practice what is the matter with this things?

you could be good and still use cheese because cheeseless fights require more time and preparation, even minimal gear FW requires getting a lot of armor, sanity food and insanity food when playing solo as characters without damage multipliers 

6 minutes ago, TalhaStarve said:

You are litterly waiting afk for a end game boss to die hıw can this satisfie you? 

everything that happens after it's death remains the same regardless of how you killed it, including it's loot and being able to activate shadow rifts after that

Edited March 20, 2024 by grm9

[JazzyGames]

Since it’s confirmed that scaled chest expansions are being added in this beta, it is my greatest hope that we will be able to replace our already-built tall chests with scaled chests without having to kill CC again. Please add enlightened crown shard to the deconstruction loot of tall chests.

[cropo]

11 minutes ago, kroban said:

A new player enters on a server, first time checking out the game. Spends a couple weeks learning about it, fights some bosses, and then learns about Fuelweaver being basically THE boss from caves. Goes there with "vet players" to "kill him", only to find out that they are just locking the boss in place with some plants, skipping the entire fight, while some laser eye kills it from the distance while the vet player uses /carol and is afk waiting for the boss to die. 

This is kind of what happened to me after spending years in DS and moving out to try DST, like, 6 years ago . As much as I love DST, the fact that one of the current "main" bosses from the game can just get cheesed like this looks horrible for the game.

Cheesing bosses has been a thing since Singleplayer. If you came from Singleplayer, I don't know how you suddenly saw another boss get cheesed and go ''Whoa man, this doesn't look good for the game, I'm going to have to withhold my 20$ investment in Klei stocks because other people can kill the boss this way".

 

Like this hypothetical either doesn't happen(and ya'all are lying) or happens on such an inconsequential scale that taking away these options dampens the game at a higher magnitude and shouldn't be changed anyway.

[Faintly Macabre]

5 minutes ago, cropo said:

Cheesing bosses has been a thing since Singleplayer. If you came from Singleplayer, I don't know how you suddenly saw another boss get cheesed and go ''Whoa man, this doesn't look good for the game, I'm going to have to withhold my 20$ investment in Klei stocks because other people can kill the boss this way".

 

Like this hypothetical either doesn't happen(and ya'all are lying) or happens on such an inconsequential scale that taking away these options dampens the game at a higher magnitude and shouldn't be changed anyway.

Right? Speedrunners exploit 30 hours games down into 15 minutes, but I can't imagine watching a speedrun of a game I'm only somewhat familiar with and deciding "wow this game must suck".

[kroban]

23 minutes ago, NoodlemanNed said:

can you efficiency nuts just let people play how they like? Not everyone is a robot who enjoys fighting a boss the same way dozens of times, people need variety.

Its kind of ironic that you are defending Lureplants cheese by saying this. Its the most efficient method of cheesing the boss without wasting any resources. Its also the most monotonous method ever, theres never going to be variety with this cheese lmao. 

The people that want the lureplant cheese to stay are the "efficient nuts". And im saying this as a person that uses this cheese and understands why people do it. The fight itself sucks and requires a lot of preparation. That doesnt take away the fact that its still a dull cheese where you are wasting 0 resources for literally the best reward in the entire game.

Like I said in other comment, what Klei SHOULD be doing is reworking the entire fight, kind of like what they did with Ancient guardian. THEN remove the cheese.

Edited March 20, 2024 by kroban

[Captain_Rage]

29 minutes ago, cropo said:

No it doesn't. No one in Skyrim complained about the enchanting glitch, in fact most casual players I talk to mention it like it was the most big-brained exploit they could ever do. Bethesda intentionally kept the goofy giant's club smashing you into orbit, and specifically made sure to keep the glitch of putting pots on an NPC's head to blind them from you stealing.

If you are comparing Klei to Bethesda I am happy that Klei aspires to make good games without major flaws and with a solid polish. I would not touch the work of the other developer with a stick. Guess we stand divided on this one.

[Faintly Macabre]

2 minutes ago, kroban said:

Its kind of ironic that you are defending Lureplants cheese by saying this. Its the most efficient method of cheesing the boss without wasting any resources.

When you're right, you're r-

2 minutes ago, kroban said:

The people that want the lureplant cheese to stay are the "efficient nuts"

One bad take deserves another, I guess.

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, kroban said:

Its the most efficient method of cheesing the boss without wasting any resources

no, you need to play as wormwood which isn't efficient or wait until spring which is inefficient if you want to get FW's loot as soon as possible which is a good idea because then sanity is solved and you get shadow rifts stuff and you get best equipment available as maxwell for fighting

6 minutes ago, kroban said:

The people that want the lureplant cheese to stay are the "efficient nuts"

if you want to kill FW early you should ideally do that in autumn during which there are no lureplants and you can't get spider eggs or use shadow prison because assembling 1 piece during day 1 is unreasonable as anyone except wolfgang and maybe walter

Edited March 20, 2024 by grm9

[cropo]

1 minute ago, Captain_Rage said:

If you are comparing Klei to Bethesda I am happy that Klei aspires to make good games without major flaws and with a solid polish. I would not touch the work of the other developer with a stick. Guess we stand divided on this one.

I'm not comparing Bethesdas unintended bugs in the mix, those are problems and they suck. There are specific ones though that Bethesda kept, and the community WANTED them to keep, because that's a far better thing for a developer to do than just hammer down anything regardless of how fun and optional it is.

[Cruvimaster]

22 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Since it’s confirmed that scaled chest expansions are being added in this beta, it is my greatest hope that we will be able to replace our already-built tall chests with scaled chests without having to kill CC again. Please add enlightened crown shard to the deconstruction loot of tall chests.

Well, using the deconstruction staff only returns the wood. I don't know if it is their intention to return the item, but I hope so.

[kroban]

12 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no, you need to play as wormwood which isn't efficient or wait until spring which is too late

if you want to kill FW early you should ideally do that in autumn during which there are no lureplants and you can't get spider eggs or use shadow prison because assembling 1 piece during day 1 is unreasonable as anyone except wolfgang and maybe walter

Im saying efficient as in wasting as little resources as possible, not as in rushing FW at day 21. 2 lureplants and 1 hondius that will stay permanently there is by definition the most efficient way to kill FW. Right now the legit method of farming the insane amount of mats the fight requires is by far the least efficient, 99% of the players are just cheesing him afk and moving on to ruins.

Edited March 20, 2024 by kroban

[00petar00]

50 minutes ago, kroban said:

The fight itself is a huge pain, most players (myself included) end up "locked with the immortal FW" wastin resources because of his horrible hands and wovens CDs, and the legit fight also requires lots of farming and using multiple different items that can easily make the inventory a whole mess in the middle of the fight etc etc.

So yes, I can understand this cheese being a "necessary evil" for most players right now. But thats because the fight itself is horrible. That doesnt change the fact that the lureplant cheese IS a cheese. Its not "player creativity" when 99% of the players are now just skipping the entire fight because of how easy it is to setup the cheese - 2 lureplants and a hondius (or even Walter's slingshot lol).

What Klei SHOULD do is reworking the entire fight (putting longer CD's on his abilities, maybe adding another attack so FW uses less hands, adding something in the area that can be used as a legit advantage) and THEN remove the lureplant cheese. This is exactly what they did with Ancient Guardian. You can still cheese it, but who even does that now? the fight has a mechanic that you can use for advantage, its easily doable without having to spend an entire year just farming things for 1 fight, unlike FW's fight.

The fight is good but the annoying part is managing the inventory and not everyone can do it. The boss doesn't need to be reworked at all, there are much more important ones like Bee Queen and Dragonfly (minions) that are terrible for solo players without using a method to remove them from the fight.

35 minutes ago, kroban said:

A new player enters on a server, first time checking out the game. Spends a couple weeks learning about it, fights some bosses, and then learns about Fuelweaver being basically THE boss from caves. Goes there with "vet players" to "kill him", only to find out that they are just locking the boss in place with some plants, skipping the entire fight, while some laser eye kills it from the distance while the vet player uses /carol and is afk waiting for the boss to die. 

This is kind of what happened to me after spending years in DS and moving out to try DST, like, 6 years ago . As much as I love DST, the fact that one of the current "main" bosses from the game can just get cheesed like this looks horrible for the game.

Most players wouldn't find that as bad as you make it out to be, it just shows an option for players that don't want to fight the boss normally and we aren't competing here for anything.

The only reason you may not  have noticed such things in single player is because you played alone and didn't bother watching youtube videos, there are quite a few exploits/cheeses there that people have used for a decade.