Klei please listen. The "survival" aspect of the game is dying slowly.

[Bird Up]

let's take the most extreme and unlikely scenarios and balance around that.

[Yuuko]

23 minutes ago, finn from human said:

did you ai generate an image of "kid playing with new toys" instead of just googling "kid playing with new toys"

Nah, its common for a kid to have a teddy bear and a glass pipe.  Nothing to worry about here...

[Mr Giggio]

Cool fire spells Willow goes brrrrrrrrrr 
 

 

[mykenception]

2 hours ago, Mr Giggio said:

Cool fire spells Willow goes brrrrrrrrrr 
 

 

That's so fire

[Ruperstiltskin]

11 hours ago, Swiyss said:

In my point of view, making the player do certains tasks to unlock certains perks would be Waaaay better.

 

Then you can play that way? The same way people like me are turning off wildfires cause it's annoying? Maybe try playing with Willow and only unlocking skills when you feel like you should or every 10 days, or even never and don't use the skill tree as it's not a rework that is a core change to the character but a bonus, don't use it if you don't like it.

When i play Walter i could use a Beef instead of Woby cause it's the optimal way of playing him, do i do it? Absolutly not! I love my girl Woby, i would never, but that's an extra difficulty that im imposing on myself and i'm not making it everyone's problem.

Play the game how you want, if you feel there's not enought challenge, there will always be some difficult mods or settings change you can turn up.

[Swiyss]

6 hours ago, Ruperstiltskin said:

Then you can play that way? The same way people like me are turning off wildfires cause it's annoying? Maybe try playing with Willow and only unlocking skills when you feel like you should or every 10 days, or even never and don't use the skill tree as it's not a rework that is a core change to the character but a bonus, don't use it if you don't like it.

When i play Walter i could use a Beef instead of Woby cause it's the optimal way of playing him, do i do it? Absolutly not! I love my girl Woby, i would never, but that's an extra difficulty that im imposing on myself and i'm not making it everyone's problem.

Play the game how you want, if you feel there's not enought challenge, there will always be some difficult mods or settings change you can turn up.

It's not about challenge. That's not even that hard to do. It's just that most games are like this, and implementimg it would motivate new player to unlock the perks by interacting with the world more.

Just surviving 20 days is like, playing the game itself. It is rewarding for VERY beginners, but for the most people that play the game casually, it would make them go out of their way to fight new bosses, explore new places etc..

I do think some of the perks should be unlockable by surviving, but it's just a matter of time until it starts to get around a 15 days difference from point to point.

They could use some more interaction. And it would feel more rewarding too.

On 12/3/2023 at 10:36 PM, Mr Giggio said:

because, gasp, they are the majority 

everyday people start the game

its. not. just. about. you. period.

Going back to this, people think that I want the feature removed or something.

They think I want the feaure doing 20 damage.

All I want is to feel rewarded, but if the rewards of killing celestial champion for wormwood, wolfgang and woodie are very balanced, why my Willow has to never care about most survival situations now making all of old mechanics useless instead of better (yeah, never crafting star caller now, never crafting weapons too, just kill with fire, get ember, repeat the process). Is a no brainer.

I don't care that you have x amount of experience in the game. And I'm not talking only for myself, I'm speaking for new players too.

Imagine explaining to a new player that 9 years long features, survival aspects, survival resources, early game knowledge and all don't starve indentity is being ruined just because some 3 or 2 years players coming from other games wanna implement crazy out of the blue off-putting mechanics?

Sure if you wanna do it. I'M NOT AGAINST IT. If implemented the right way instead of burying the old game to the ground.

Expect for bosses, everything about bosses is perfect imo.

[Swiyss]

I've been playing this game since the beta. And the only 2 things I ever felt was bad for the game was removing diseases, and this willow skillset tree.

I never used the forums before now. The game was fine to play, and I enjoyed it. Every beta, everything, but things are running out of control. Thanks god for wormwood feedback. I made over 200 comments in the last 4 days in an attempt to show Klei why their last decisions might not be that great for he game. I won't do that for most characters, but willow is one of my favorites, and her identity doesn't make any sense now.

[Swiyss]

It's not about drama. It's that from a 10 year player perspective that has been playing since DS first release, and never ever talked about anything before in the forums, this new stuff (weapons, armours, damage gaps), skillsets and late-game identity is amazing to have. BUT, all I'm saying, is that it is DEFINITELY not well put together, DEFINITELY needs way more changes than it is getting and DEFINITELY should not interupt all of what we refined until now.

7 hours ago, Ruperstiltskin said:

Then you can play that way? The same way people like me are turning off wildfires cause it's annoying?

Play the game how you want,

So you agree we should remove wilfires? It is not the same thing, Wildfires were discussed way back in the day, and has a lot of ways to bypass the mechanic itself just by playing the game.

This character skillset has nothing to do with this, it is not that I'm telling klei to remove a feature they added, I'm telling them the consequences of said feature, the refinement it needs to actually account for the game's fundamentals and be put in the right place, in the right way.

Because this is not a new game, it is not a feature that removes things in the game. These brand new ideas cannot be put together like this. We don't need only planar damage, we need way more than that.

[NITko]

I'll just ignore what you said and say this:
These skill trees are designed to award you for playing a character for a long time.

New players will not get these off the bat and even if they did they'll still die to the first couple of bosses because they're new and unexperienced.

You seem to me like a DST veteran here. You can't say the game is getting easier when you've probably played the game for so long it seems that way.

+ Spiders? Really? That's your argument for the game being "too easy"? C'mon...

[Captain_Rage]

Spiders, Shadow Splumonkeys, Shadow Creatures. Nothing is a threat anymore. Before you had to use your skill as a players and make an assessment whether to fight or flee. Now you have pocket strats for every situation. Simply throw down Bernie and go afk for 2 min when monkeys chase you in the caves. Your average newbie might enjoy the new edge to kill everything but for those who liked the quirks of the game many items and tactics have been rendered redundant. Is that good game design? The power baseline of the survivors is increasing for every single update while the enemies and hazards is not, besides the latest super late game bosses. Most "skills" are simply arbitrary stat boosts or carbon copies of already existing perks of other characters. Bland, if anything.

[arubaro]

21 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I agree with you, alot of people are being immature and childish, yes i am looking to the higher ups on the anti beard train too. Wether or not people believe he did something bad or not (some weird innocent art drama and using someones varg farm is where all it stemed from) forgiveness is essential to this world and we would hate everyone if we never did. (Beard has done nothing even near bad for years and has been minding his own business)

except he keeps stealing content without giving credit to gain money

he stalks the forum to robe other users work for his own benefit

[chirsg]

I just want Golden Wigfrid to stay. 

All this bickering, and not one person is talking about what's truly important.

[Jakepeng99]

31 minutes ago, arubaro said:

except he keeps stealing content without giving credit to gain money

he stalks the forum to robe other users work for his own benefit

I recall is him doing something similar is using someone elses varg farm without credit is in a guide which is years and years ago, i was young then and was not involved though i agree in that situation there should be credit, though there are no other scenarios i know of. This "he keeps on doing" stuff is ignorant as most are looking at one or two incidents from years ago and ignoring the present. He certainly has been doing nothing near this for years. It is time to mature and move on. Beard, and everyone has their own life and problems.

 

Also this thread is two topics in one now, so i wont go off topic any further.

[Swiyss]

1 hour ago, NITko said:

I'll just ignore what you said and say this:
These skill trees are designed to award you for playing a character for a long time.

New players will not get these off the bat and even if they did they'll still die to the first couple of bosses because they're new and unexperienced.

You seem to me like a DST veteran here. You can't say the game is getting easier when you've probably played the game for so long it seems that way.

+ Spiders? Really? That's your argument for the game being "too easy"? C'mon...

Listen, since the start of the thread I changed a lot and my opinion swifted around the right direction. I'll give you somewhat of a conclusion based on what you said and what I have in mind right now.

The idea of a skillset tree = very great.

The idea of helping new players = very great.

The implications of said things being added making already existing features feel useless/forgot about. = not that great.

Planar damage came to fix this, but the way we're giving Willow her planar damage makes no sense to her as a character. The idea of getting into late game easier should be more towards every character having a thing to add to the game, rather than making it easier to reach late game for everyone by just making all survical things useless.

Wormwood as an example is a character that can farm well, and give alternative plant-based armours and traps to help us succeed in killing bosses and AoE damage to deal with lots of targets, like Bee Queen grumble bees. So, his skill tree making the bramble a tiny stronger (since he isn't a fighter), and giving him Brightshade influence to help with the damage a bit makes him already able to stay relevant in the late game, same as Woodie and Wolfgang, which in my opinion were very good and well implemented (although in my opinion, the skill tree could recieve more incentive to DO things inside the game, like killing Fw or Cc which we already have, but related more to easy access and intermediate perks).

I agree that Willow herself should get some damage perks, but what we got is a BIG BIG jump from what she used to be. I like having new and exciting spells and what not things being added (we now got atleast 5 other characters that could recieve these things, not her), but only to a certain point it makes sense with progression and character indentity, as well as all of the things coming with adding a skill tree, like having choices (eg. Spell caster willow or Bernie summoning willow)

One thing I didn't like about wormwood's skillset tree was that you can now have saladamander or bulbous lightbug at the same time as the vines. You have the best of both worlds, and that was added because the saladmander is kinda bad to have and don't help you that much in boss fights, it's more like something in the way. They did this instead of making the perk itself better, and I don't want this happening with Willow also.

As for already existing features being left out, I have a very easy to understand analogy :

Hambat is a great weapon, but I can do way more with meat and pig skin.

Also, cookie cutter cap is a situational item that comes in hand IF you need protection in the ocean and is too far away from land or base to collect pig skin or wood, which is great cause it has more purposes, like building Pearl's house.

When an item like Brightshade Husks makes shovels, hoes, pickaxes, hammers, dark swords, MOST head slot and body slot armours and also charlie useless; I think you have a problem.

Not only these old items will probably never be used, since we're adding more, but also the resources used to craft them AND all already existing farms.

It's a new meta, sure, but I've seen many many other ways to implement brightshade and void armour without making old content and survival aspects of the game useless for the sake of rewarding the player. (Eg. I can have hambat for longer fights and dark swords for quicker fights or high damage; yet BS sword completely makes glass cutters useless, instead of adding new ways of making them shine)

Heck, we have moon glass sword and nightmare fuel sword, but their uses come and go like a spear. Now, you can see the pattern very well with the new late game content and early game content, some get useless, and others have unique places to be and moments they shine. But brightshade and void content just makes everything BUT them useless, instead of inplementing them in a better way. I think a good way to fix this idea of killing old content is the same thing Minecraft did when adding netherite, using gold and diamond alongside the new resource; instead of killing them, and they did this so people wouldn't rush new content, the same way we're doing now. I made a Wes gameplay recently, and I didn't even bother using gold tools or hambats, neither tents or healing purposes, I just did a boss rush for anything not raid related and focused on CC. By day 89 I haven't used a single tool except flint stuff and moon glass axes.

I'm not saying that the curve should be slower, but KLEI themself were the ones who forced you making pearl quests and killing crab king necessary for CC. And I'm not against that, I actually love this idea, that's why it should be implemented also for tools, weapons, healing sources, foods, light sources.

Sure I can skip torches and use lanterns, but I can't put fire on a tree with a lantern; however BS gear can do everything old tools do, but better, and at the cost of progression, instead the cost of progressive implementation.

Also, these new items are self repairable.

But, you can argue that that's good, and we should forget about old content to focus on new content. Sure, I agree too; but how are adding any new difficulty if the community hates them all? They want the new compact and better content without drawbacks, and I think, that for the amount of power and ultility we're having, the challenges should feel a little harder. Not much, not killing fuelweaver with wes and axes type of difficulty, but also not too little.

People call ocean annoying, they call crab king annoying, pearl quests annoying, finding atrium annoying, killing toadstool annoying, having to heat myself or cool myself annoying; they HATE the game, and we who have been playing for years, understand these things. So please, don't rush into conclusions, and actually understand why and for what purpose things are made.

And Klei, consider my comments and work towards this game and my opinions, gives us INSIGHT please, so we can change and focus on the right directions. The roadmaps are good, but maybe not enough I think.

54 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Sure I can skip torches and use lanterns, but I can't put fire on a tree with a lantern; however BS gear can do everything old tools do, but better, and at the cost of progression, instead the cost of progressive implementation

That's like the biggest thing Klei should consider.

Also, as for the glass cutter situation, I had a new friend playing the game with me, saying he would never craft most items in the game, since he can just focus on getting into late game. And that made me sad, and made me think a lot. Also the fact that glass cutters have this amazing Terraria skin, just for it to be useless/skippable all around.

They need to implement more things like having to use walking cane for lazy explorer. That's a good progressive implementation design example.

[NoKrampusSack]

is that a beard video?

[Swiyss]

I don't want them to remove the features we already have on her, that would be bad. I'd like for them to rather make her more unique, with her little star caller, and both her alignment spells to be changed, cause they are the ones making the tree unbalanced. Also, take in consideration that we're recieving all of this at once, not one by one, so her spike will get her to rank S pretty much instantly. I'm not saying that's bad, but right now the spells feel weird putting, even after playing with it and finding it fun.

It's not like a tree right now, it's more like a third rework. That is what's sad about it. It's not ramping fun, with progressive features, but more like a "survive once and make her whole kit change" instead of "do this and that to unlock it". It's not rewarding, seriously. I did a run on the beta, and it didn't felt like I was slowly getting stronger. More like Instantly 1 or 2 things became redundant and 3 other things are useless. And after killin CC you have Godmode survival. :/

and that's per account instead of being per world. SOME things should be per world and OTHERS should be per account. So we can actually have nice RPG mechanics being applied.

Again, I'm a super fan of her kit, and i'm having a lot of fun too. But lots of things feel out of place with these new skill trees, and a lot of it needs refining.

[GenomeSquirrel]

I doubt any other character except Wilson will get a second look post beta, perhaps hammered down, but not uplifted, and I only think Wilson because he didn’t get ancient clothes like the others.

[Swiyss]

15 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

I doubt any other character except Wilson will get a second look post beta, perhaps hammered down, but not uplifted, and I only think Wilson because he didn’t get ancient clothes like the others.

they made the brightshade bomb for wilson it seems. every character now has some kinda of aoe damage, so maybe next beta they'll add something that spawns a large amount of minions or something, hence the willows enlightment spell, but it should do 25 damage against normal mobs and 50 against planar mobs. that's just logical.

and it probably will be shadow related

[Yuuko]

49 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I don't want them to remove the features we already have on her, that would be bad. I'd like for them to rather make her more unique, with her little star caller, and both her alignment spells to be changed, cause they are the ones making the tree unbalanced. Also, take in consideration that we're recieving all of this at once, not one by one, so her spike will get her to rank S pretty much instantly. I'm not saying that's bad, but right now the spells feel weird putting, even after playing with it and finding it fun.

It's not like a tree right now, it's more like a third rework. That is what's sad about it. It's not ramping fun, with progressive features, but more like a "survive once and make her whole kit change" instead of "do this and that to unlock it". It's not rewarding, seriously. I did a run on the beta, and it didn't felt like I was slowly getting stronger. More like Instantly 1 or 2 things became redundant and 3 other things are useless. And after killin CC you have Godmode survival. :/

and that's per account instead of being per world. SOME things should be per world and OTHERS should be per account. So we can actually have nice RPG mechanics being applied.

Again, I'm a super fan of her kit, and i'm having a lot of fun too. But lots of things feel out of place with these new skill trees, and a lot of it needs refining.

The little star caller is great.  Star caller staves are character agnostic and are pretty easy to get with practice.  Letting Willow cast a ball of light that lasts for a significantly shorter duration is fine.  I think its okay when a character has something that overlaps with current in game items.  Wig has had her battle helms for a LONG time and they do basically replace football helmets almost entirely.  Its fine.  Willow being able to raise a short dwarf start is fine.

And yes this is a 3rd rework.  Since the reworks happened, even shortly after Willow's people knew there was a problem and immediately began demanding another touch up.  Willow was a very vanilla character but unlike Wilson is not supposed to be - not anymore.  She was mostly a vanilla character b/c Klei couldn't figure out what to give her without making her very strong.  Well now with the skill trees the point is that she will be very strong.  Now that isn't to say feedback is bad and tweaks aren't needed - but I think its bad to say "Willow shouldn't be S tier b/c her last refreshes failed and left her F tier."  Willow's new kit is clearly designing her to be a combat character - she isn't accidentally stepping into the threat range of Wolfgang and Maxwell...

Definitely its an issue just how well the new "end game" stuff fixes all problems - even the ones they made to challenge the end game gear - but I think that is a topic much bigger than Willow, and I don't think Klei is going to do anything about it.  Nerfing Willow b/c Klei is trying to do something weird with the end game isn't going to help Willow fit better, its just going to leave her wanting next to the other combat characters.

[Swiyss]

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The little star caller is great.  Star caller staves are character agnostic and are pretty easy to get with practice.  Letting Willow cast a ball of light that lasts for a significantly shorter duration is fine.  I think its okay when a character has something that overlaps with current in game items.  Wig has had her battle helms for a LONG time and they do basically replace football helmets almost entirely.  Its fine.  Willow being able to raise a short dwarf start is fine.

And yes this is a 3rd rework.  Since the reworks happened, even shortly after Willow's people knew there was a problem and immediately began demanding another touch up.  Willow was a very vanilla character but unlike Wilson is not supposed to be - not anymore.  She was mostly a vanilla character b/c Klei couldn't figure out what to give her without making her very strong.  Well now with the skill trees the point is that she will be very strong.  Now that isn't to say feedback is bad and tweaks aren't needed - but I think its bad to say "Willow shouldn't be S tier b/c her last refreshes failed and left her F tier."  Willow's new kit is clearly designing her to be a combat character - she isn't accidentally stepping into the threat range of Wolfgang and Maxwell...

Definitely its an issue just how well the new "end game" stuff fixes all problems - even the ones they made to challenge the end game gear - but I think that is a topic much bigger than Willow, and I don't think Klei is going to do anything about it.  Nerfing Willow b/c Klei is trying to do something weird with the end game isn't going to help Willow fit better, its just going to leave her wanting next to the other combat characters.

you made me realise I should probably let the changes sink in for around some days and test a bit more (even though I did a boss rush already) the in-game content and compare to old content.

reading your insightful replies made me actually do critical thinking and has helped me get closer to what a perfect skill tree on her would look like, so for that I'll have to say thank you!

but my point still stands on fundamental issues with planar damage and defense; and the content overall.

thats a different topic though, and I do also think Klei won't do much for now, but they probably should do something in the future.

[mima_]

22 hours ago, Swiyss said:

I would prefer her to be like a lone wolf. People can't fight with her because she's too hurtful as a person, like people touching her hurts them, something different, alternative.

that pretty selfish dont u think? 
do u still want have willow image as fire burning maniac that people need to kick everytime someone see her join at public server ? 
with her perks now instead of fire burning maniac she will be like hero. might be someone accidentally burn chest when wrong clicking the chest when holding torch..  now she can prevent stuff to burn just with her lighter.. she can be a girl that love fire without being nuisance for other people. people can see that her fire is different. no more pyromaniacs being a kicked wrongly just because u see fire spreading on ur base. 
finally she can join the multiplayer game she living in. 

 

[Swiyss]

12 minutes ago, prettynuggets said:

finally she can join the multiplayer game she living in. 

 

That is not the case, not even now in the current beta.

[mima_]

Just now, Swiyss said:

That is not the case, not even now in the current beta.

i bet the friendly damage happen just because the skill is from existing mobs. its still beta u cant say for sure.. friendly fire in non pvp game is weird. 
u can see the black fire doesn't do other damage as blue fire. it tell us something doesnt it ? 

but making a char a lone, bitter, and other stuff u said is just saying make her like OG willow that just being transported to dst where she burn base just because she went insane.. make her to be hated in public server like she used to. 

about the other thing...
idk about wherther she can kill 100 spiders easily . with her blue fire she cant get any amber. only mobs on fire drop it and u need to suck it one by one slowly holding the lighter.. while ur fav char wendy is have no sacrifical ritual to summon abigail anymore .. no need to watch the flower bloom, no need to lose flower just because u drop it and it turn into flower.. from day 1 u can annihilate whole spider village. with basically nothing but watch ur sister on rage mode.

im not sure if u crying now because whole ordeal of people getting more special abilities. but listening to this post just in tdlr version it will be like this....
"but killing spiders is our little special thing.. killing bq is our special... its so unfair that willow can do the same just because she already reaches endgame once. sob sob"

i also want to add. 
big bernie can tank but willow can lost it very easily just by running faster than bernie.
bernie cant go thro wormhole or cave unless it in willow pocket.
it need repair. even tho its cheap welp its need repair. u cant just summon her back to force it fight like abi.
it doesnt have aoe damage. it still will be lost if against monkey/spider without any help. 
bernie not only take damage from willow sanity monster also took all agro on every existing shadow monster in the area. people crazy near it? more damage taken. 
strong bernie means u cant take ur special fire mage blast .. 

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, prettynuggets said:

i bet the friendly damage happen just because the skill is from existing mobs. its still beta u cant say for sure.. friendly fire in non pvp game is weird. 
u can see the black fire doesn't do other damage as blue fire. it tell us something doesnt it ? 

but making a char a lone, bitter, and other stuff u said is just saying make her like OG willow that just being transported to dst where she burn base just because she went insane.. make her to be hated in public server like she used to. 

Friendly fire existed since forever.

Every short on her represents her like this, most quotes on her are pretty selfish and mentally unstable related.

Now people want her to change all of a sudden instead of enhancing her.

Also, everyone can burn the base by accident.

[mima_]

Just now, Swiyss said:

Friendly fire existed since forever.

tell me one that give friend friendly fire without pvp? 
in this game ofc. u cant even feed people candy just because it can reduce hp of people receiving it. 

3 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

most quotes on her are pretty selfish and mentally unstable related.

wendy have depressed quotes should i tell klei she need have perks to follow her sister to otherside when she have 0 sanity ? 

5 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Also, everyone can burn the base by accident.

yes u must be new. many willow get kicked wrongly just she by the crime scene of base burning . thats how image of base burner attached to her. now she got fire perks that clear her name even prevent for early torch troll to burn base. cus she handle the fire. cus she can.