Klei please listen. The "survival" aspect of the game is dying slowly.

[Swiyss]

I attribute heated tones in every little conversation I have in Life, that's why I'm able to squeeze the most out of people's ideas and arguments. Right now I'm kinda close to a conclusion per say. I'm still waiting for klei's response in the next hotfix. So we'll see by then

[Trips]

I don't really have many emotional stakes in these forum arguments tbh, but it's up to you to decide whether you think I'm telling the truth or not.

Humility I think is something best decided by others to think you are, instead of being an aspect you describe yourself as. As how beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what attractive may be to one might be ugly to another. That's why I think it's fine for people to call others cute, but rather self-centered when people assert they are cute themselves.. it seemingly implies everybody else would find them cute, which is just incorrect.

[HowlVoid]

5 hours ago, Szczuku said:

1. Klei doesn't listen

Or maybe Klei is listening to the majority

The whole concept of skill trees was made because there was a large outcry for progression outside of this forum.

Sometimes it's not about what individuals want but what is healthy for the long term of the many

[Mysterious box]

Just now, HowlVoid said:

Or maybe Klei is listening to the majority

The whole concept of skill trees was made because there was a large outcry for progression outside of this forum.

Sometimes it's not about what individuals want but what is healthy for the long term of the many

Personally I think it was more so due to the positive response and love refreshes got everywhere not just the forums and I don't doubt that there will be another wave of character reworks at the tail end of the skill trees it's just how things go once devs get a taste but hey at least it keeps things fresh. 

[mykenception]

Wormwood + Overpowered has never gone into the same sentence as it has now

they legit nerfed bramble traps reset speed because some players felt it "too op",  and my petals

even the saladmanders are god-awful slow

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

The whole concept of skill trees was made because there was a large outcry for progression outside of this forum.

Yeah forum seems to really be the minority most of the time. Pretty funny imo.

 

Also disease lover + Beard video + L + I'm contributing to this thread

[Swiyss]

2 hours ago, WONTow said:

Wendy being able to kill 100 spiders day 1 by doing absolutely nothing:

Willow being able to kill 100 spiders after surviving 160 days, killing late game bosses and farming a bunch of mobs:  

Wendy could always do that with abigail. And everyone always knew how strong it was. She as a character have very specific downsides that willow don't. And most downsides related to "just farm it until you have it" have always proved me as failures. I can make willow to 200 damage per cold fire shot and make it so you only unlock this by killing celestial champion 4 times instead of 1. That's simply failed unlimited design.

The way insight works is by giving you all 15 points by day one, making the character super strong in the early game. But that shouldn't be the case, and Klei just didn't fixed this when wilson came out, so now every character can have very overpowered features at the start of the game instead of a steady climb. Disregarding every single survavibility issue "just because".

[Trips]

6 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Or maybe Klei is listening to the majority

The whole concept of skill trees was made because there was a large outcry for progression outside of this forum.

Sometimes it's not about what individuals want but what is healthy for the long term of the many

Yep, every game is incentivized to cater to the larger part of their playerbase. Not like the minority doesn't matter of course, but it also depends on the context or type of game.

In PVP games, a minority of players could disproportionately affect the rest of the population depending on how many tools the game gives them to dominate the relatively unskilled.

But this is a very sandbox-y co-op game, and from my experience with the game a lot of boss fights became much much easier with another player compared to doing them solo.. Wolfgang alone is a beast in of itself, but then you can pair him with Wigfrid to give him several buffs that counteract his weaknesses like sanity drain, and give him healing on hit so he doesn't have to spend as much time chugging pierogis... god forbid you have a team of 6 proper combat characters. 

[Swiyss]

13 minutes ago, Trips said:

I don't really have many emotional stakes in these forum arguments tbh, but it's up to you to decide whether you think I'm telling the truth or not.

Humility I think is something best decided by others to think you are, instead of being an aspect you describe yourself as. As how beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what attractive may be to one might be ugly to another. That's why I think it's fine for people to call others cute, but rather self-centered when people assert they are cute themselves.. it seemingly implies everybody else would find them cute, which is just incorrect.

Keep on topic please.

3 minutes ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

Yeah forum seems to really be the minority most of the time. Pretty funny imo.

 

Also disease lover + Beard video + L + I'm contributing to this thread

I'll repeat as for the second time I do not even know who this guy is, and dont care also, but if you can attribute someone to another person instead of understanding the purpose of the message you're being incoherent.

[mykenception]

5 hours ago, Swiyss said:

I don't even know what mental actually means

*why would you even use the word if you don't know what it means, and now that lil spice on your topic is definitely not helping your argument*

[Swiyss]

4 minutes ago, Trips said:

Yep, every game is incentivized to cater to the larger part of their playerbase. Not like the minority doesn't matter of course, but it also depends on the context or type of game.

In PVP games, a minority of players could disproportionately affect the rest of the population depending on how many tools the game gives them to dominate the relatively unskilled.

But this is a very sandbox-y co-op game, and from my experience with the game a lot of boss fights became much much easier with another player compared to doing them solo.. Wolfgang alone is a beast in of itself, but then you can pair him with Wigfrid to give him several buffs that counteract his weaknesses like sanity drain, and give him healing on hit so he doesn't have to spend as much time chugging pierogis... god forbid you have a team of 6 proper combat characters. 

Yeah, the game is really not that hard with all these feature we're having right know. 

I've seen this before. Intelligent and smart people were the top 1% while the stupid majority were 60% of people, and because they didn't listen to the old players and smart ones, the game just made 80% of the fan base angry about it. But who cares if they're getting money right? That a lot of the motivation for some companies, and these features affect most games, not only dst, which is multiplayer on top of that. I'm am in no way saying that I myself know everything and am super knowledgeable about the game, but that 2 brains will think better than one.

Only if everyone was coherent and show a bigger side of things to us that we don't know. Maybe klei will gives another insight about them so we can follow along.

2 minutes ago, mykenception said:

*why would you even use the word if you don't know what it means, and now that lil spice on your topic is definitely not helping your argument*

Mental is someone who is crazy right?

Then the meaning should be correct for that context. If you actually read all of what I said.

I find insane that people can't forgive someone, they need to kill another person that did or said something wrong like they are perfect angels.

If you never steal something, then throw the first rock please, I'll wait.

That beard guy clearly is working to show other people content and is finding business in the making.

[Mike23Ua]

16 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Or maybe Klei is listening to the majority

The whole concept of skill trees was made because there was a large outcry for progression outside of this forum.

Sometimes it's not about what individuals want but what is healthy for the long term of the many

Sometimes listening to “Majority” is NOT what’s healthy for the game.

I feel like Klei tends to sort of forget their roots in their quest for more popularity, and while I can’t blame them for wanting more people to play DS/DST, what’s the price they’re willing to pay to accomplish that? Are they willing to strip the game completely if it’s original identity and the “Labor of Love” Passion Project they started it out as?

I feel like at times even the Developers at Klei get disheartened about where to go/what to do with the franchise.

Almost like they simply forgot the risky game they created all those years ago where Permanent Death & Uncompromising punishment was a fairly new and obscure form of gaming that was only ever going to appeal to a small niche group of gamers who were into that sort of thing.

I feel the need to say this NOW because back then Klei took a risk on something New, but flash forward to year 2023 and the WORLD has seen a massive spike in popularity in the RogueLite/Like gaming Genre, many rogue kites released this year, and even games that original released as a different type of game, got a RogueLite mode added as DLC content.

Xbox Gamepass just added Remenant 2 to its line up (another Roguetype title) so obviously there’s DEMAND for this type of gaming experience & significantly more demand for it then what DS had when it made its bold risky move to be something new and fresh back in the day..

So it feels really bad to me to sit and watch the game franchise that introduced me to the RogueLite/Iike Genre slowly move further and further away from that genre, meanwhile Other games are coming along at what could arguably be considered the “Peak” era of these type of Experiences.

I know my opinions not going to matter much in the quest for mass popularity, but dang do I wish Klei could add a mode or create a new DS licensed game that truly caters to the genre they took a chance on all those years ago.

 

[Mr Giggio]

33 minutes ago, mykenception said:

and my petals

that alone could have made  beefalo taming so special for wormwood x__x I felt that too

[Swiyss]

5 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

this is not survival

Nice, added 0 purpose to the conversation, might as well not commented.

[Guille6785]

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

Nice, added 0 purpose to the conversation, might as well not commented.

I'm pointing out that your spiders argument does not relate in any way to your central argument about the survival aspect of the game being diminished because 100 spiders are not a problem in survival

I don't know why it's necessary to say that my comment is useless because you contradicted yourself

[Spino43]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Sometimes listening to “Majority” is NOT what’s healthy for the game.

I feel like Klei tends to sort of forget their roots in their quest for more popularity, and while I can’t blame them for wanting more people to play DS/DST, what’s the price they’re willing to pay to accomplish that? Are they willing to strip the game completely if it’s original identity and the “Labor of Love” Passion Project they started it out as?

I feel like at times even the Developers at Klei get disheartened about where to go/what to do with the franchise.

Almost like they simply forgot the risky game they created all those years ago where Permanent Death & Uncompromising punishment was a fairly new and obscure form of gaming that was only ever going to appeal to a small niche group of gamers who were into that sort of thing.

I feel the need to say this NOW because back then Klei took a risk on something New, but flash forward to year 2023 and the WORLD has seen a massive spike in popularity in the RogueLite/Like gaming Genre, many rogue kites released this year, and even games that original released as a different type of game, got a RogueLite mode added as DLC content.

Xbox Gamepass just added Remenant 2 to its line up (another Roguetype title) so obviously there’s DEMAND for this type of gaming experience & significantly more demand for it then what DS had when it made its bold risky move to be something new and fresh back in the day..

So it feels really bad to me to sit and watch the game franchise that introduced me to the RogueLite/Iike Genre slowly move further and further away from that genre, meanwhile Other games are coming along at what could arguably be considered the “Peak” era of these type of Experiences.

I know my opinions not going to matter much in the quest for mass popularity, but dang do I wish Klei could add a mode or create a new DS licensed game that truly caters to the genre they took a chance on all those years ago.

 

Spamming "klei make a damn new game" isn't helping.

Even if your argument makes sense gameplay wise, dst is still a game with a rather big playerbase and bringing I believe a pretty big income to them. Asking them to basically ditch dst is like asking them shoot themselves in the foot. 

And things may change, people may  change. If you can't accept dst as it is, then maybe it's time to say farewell like the other guy on the dst discussion topic, or fund Klei to make a new ds game for your satisfaction.

 

[Swiyss]

Just now, Guille6785 said:

I'm pointing out that your spiders argument does not relate in any way to your central argument about the survival aspect of the game being diminished because 100 spiders are not a problem in survival

I don't know why it's necessary to say that my comment is useless because you contradicted yourself

The thread is the survival aspect of the game is dying slowly. Willow can kill 100 spiders with 1 spell. 100 spiders won't show up at random. But having to not care about losing around 2 to 3 football helmets, all the health you would lose, killing spiders one by one, all the time you would spend. Because if you dont take them down they'll turn into queens and later interupt your way. They may even come back as nests again, but the same thing is applied, the amount of nests are still there, then how is that not related to surviving the world?

Either way, wendy also has an easy way killing all forest spiders and spider quaries. People always said things like, "damn dude wendy is op. Look at this, she took all spiders at once". Since the beginning we had this idea that wendy was the character for clearing large amount of monster, everyone's been saying this since DST launch.

Now randomly willow can do the same.. and all the features that she also got with all the skill tree. Again, it's not fair to compare her with wendy because wendy didn't got her skill tree yet. But either way, neglecting all of her raw power just because it's indirect survivability is ridiculous imo.

4 minutes ago, Spino43 said:

Spamming "klei make a damn new game" isn't helping.

Even if your argument makes sense gameplay wise, dst is still a game with a rather big playerbase and bringing I believe a pretty big income to them. Asking them to basically ditch dst is like asking them shoot themselves in the foot. 

And things may change, people may  change. If you can't accept dst as it is, then maybe it's time to say farewell like the other guy on the dst discussion topic, or fund Klei to make a new ds game for your satisfaction.

 

Problem might be Tencent gaming.

2 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

clearing large amount of monster, everyone's been saying this since DST launch

And no one complained about balancing the game back then, because it was fine. Not a huge advantage since she has her disadvantages.

Willow has soooooo much now that is overwhelming. She is definently 

1 out of character

2 overly powerful

3 Bunch of features together that hardly relate to each other

[Yuuko]

57 minutes ago, Trips said:

I don't really have many emotional stakes in these forum arguments tbh, but it's up to you to decide whether you think I'm telling the truth or not.

Humility I think is something best decided by others to think you are, instead of being an aspect you describe yourself as. As how beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what attractive may be to one might be ugly to another. That's why I think it's fine for people to call others cute, but rather self-centered when people assert they are cute themselves.. it seemingly implies everybody else would find them cute, which is just incorrect.

You're cute <3 

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

Wolfgang hits hard at day one sure, but we can't go back now right? He was always like this, and that was never a problem since the launch of the ds franchise. Since the dawn of the game, this character has always been overpowered compared to others, because that is his purpose, people don't understand that willow purpose cannot be the same as wendy or maxwell, because every character would be the same instead of actually having personality.

 

Okay so here is the thing:  You could always pick Wolfgang and get that OP right?  What about people who don't dig Wolfgang, or people who don't dig HOW Wolfgang is OP?  What about people who want to be an OP mage, or a girl with an OP ghost sister?

I mean, if Wolfgang can be OP and the game is fine, why must another character not be OP too?

-----------------

And really, how does this address your complaint about survival?  The real bottom line on that issue is that survival in DST is all about knowledge and only a little about skill.  You learn what is good and what is bad, how to get food, shelter, warmth, etc and then you know it.  10 years of playing this game Klei is not going to be able to make "being dry" a challenge.  At *best* it will be a nuisance that drives me to play towards unlocking its solution immediately.  And if there is no solution then its not a challenge, just a tax on playing.

That is the paradox of asking for "more challenge."  More challenge how?  Should we randomize which shroom color has which effect on world gen so you have to trial an error which is which?  Sure it might be troublesome for a play through or two, but then you'd find out how to test and mark which is which for your world (or use non-shroom based survival tactics) and everything goes back to normal.  They could cheat and just deliver spiteful things to you like meteors spawning over your head randomly and bosses coming constantly at you...  but is that really challenging?  What was the challenging thing you needed to do to over come them?  And then what?

And imo the biggest of all is respite.  There are some games that are great at putting you in a pressure cooker, with enemies coming from all sides, dangers around every turn, and really tough boss fights that push you to your limits - and then you return to town, use a tent, shop for gear and play dance party with emotes in the market while you look for another group.  DST needs that respite but the game doesn't end, so we need downtime between activities.  When you're done fighting zombearger and getting back to base its not "challenging" to suddenly start raining glass from the sky, its annoying.  I just DID the challenging thing, and now I want to sit around and base build a bit while I get ready for the next challenging thing.

[Swiyss]

18 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

You're cute <3 

Okay so here is the thing:  You could always pick Wolfgang and get that OP right?  What about people who don't dig Wolfgang, or people who don't dig HOW Wolfgang is OP?  What about people who want to be an OP mage, or a girl with an OP ghost sister?

I mean, if Wolfgang can be OP and the game is fine, why must another character not be OP too?

-----------------

And really, how does this address your complaint about survival?  The real bottom line on that issue is that survival in DST is all about knowledge and only a little about skill.  You learn what is good and what is bad, how to get food, shelter, warmth, etc and then you know it.  10 years of playing this game Klei is not going to be able to make "being dry" a challenge.  At *best* it will be a nuisance that drives me to play towards unlocking its solution immediately.  And if there is no solution then its not a challenge, just a tax on playing.

That is the paradox of asking for "more challenge."  More challenge how?  Should we randomize which shroom color has which effect on world gen so you have to trial an error which is which?  Sure it might be troublesome for a play through or two, but then you'd find out how to test and mark which is which for your world (or use non-shroom based survival tactics) and everything goes back to normal.  They could cheat and just deliver spiteful things to you like meteors spawning over your head randomly and bosses coming constantly at you...  but is that really challenging?  What was the challenging thing you needed to do to over come them?  And then what?

And imo the biggest of all is respite.  There are some games that are great at putting you in a pressure cooker, with enemies coming from all sides, dangers around every turn, and really tough boss fights that push you to your limits - and then you return to town, use a tent, shop for gear and play dance party with emotes in the market while you look for another group.  DST needs that respite but the game doesn't end, so we need downtime between activities.  When you're done fighting zombearger and getting back to base its not "challenging" to suddenly start raining glass from the sky, its annoying.  I just DID the challenging thing, and now I want to sit around and base build a bit while I get ready for the next challenging thing.

You kinda went all over the place here and I actually like that. Yeah I agree with most things here. However the point I'm making it's not that I want her to NOT be op, I want her to be BALANCED.

Now in my world, that is:

Wendy for aoe and BQ

Maxwell all in one op final boss

Wolfgang solo speedrun and damage

Etc..

Willow in my opinion should be like walter, wilson, or wurt.

We have a different thing here and there, but not too much. And is related to fire, her being a pyromaniac.

Now they made her magic. And bearnie is now stronger. Well, what can I do? Give my feedback of course.

I play her, compare to max, wendy, wolf and wormwood(another different playstyle)

My conclusion is that: make her either lighter with embers or bearnie with summoning

Managing bernie and assisting him from far away like maxwell but having the possibility to assist in fighting too.

And embers doing the job all by yourself and focusing in skill(fingers and knowledge, like max)

But the skillset should be balanced, so make her be able to choose both, but not have the best of both worlds.

Now all of that I think should be her goal, and I have yet to see other suggestions based on what klei offered us.

But the problem lies in her currentl being able to use her last perk on day 1, that's detrimental in my opinion, soo.. Do we change that or make so it's only available at a certain point? I think the second option is better, don't nerf it. Both lunar and shadow.

Now, i also do want her to have ultility, well why? Because all character in the game are useful to one another at a certain point. Copying star caller effect and making the whole item useless on her is DEFINITELY not a good design, I'm sure there's more to the table right?

 

Then about things being challenging, the example you presented is very good. I myself don't mind having to deal with things when I don't want to. Because that's life buddy, and we go back to that thesis I presented. If everything in life is too easy and won't break you out of your shell, then you'll never fell stronger. You'll never fell... enough, you know?

Also, one point I missed is that she is overpowered in the sense of having too many things thrown together at once. That for me is way to random and won't make her any better of a character. I think the blue and black fires are bad also, they should've made it red or yellow to fit her more, even if it's lunar or shadow related

[JustAFlower]

Nah, it's fine. You must still eat, heal and gain sanity. Everything still wants to kill you no matter where it comes from. So, Nah, it's fine. Not dying.

[Swiyss]

I want her balanced in the sense of actually pinning down the things they presented us and putting everything in place. And I think when I critize he spell, most people think I'm against it, or think that I wanna ruin the character, the biggest problem in this forum are people's assumptions of the texts presented, we can only communicate by text so most of our intentions and ideas get left behind, and pictures start to flow on people's minds, and all these stickers start to pop in our forehead telling who we are and what we want based on what we typed which is ridiculous.

My idea is to pick something and put where it SHOULD be

Some things are out of place, so then i present my opinion about it and situations and knowledge to back it up.

13 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

If everything in life is too easy and won't break you out of your shell, then you'll never fell stronger. You'll never fell... enough, you know

That is the sole thing that makes people don't want the challenge. And I think that Klei as a father, and us as children, need to assist and direct us on our way. We can adventure out and choose our own path too, but the guide is there. The standard don't starve experience was always like this, then why change it now? People are too soft I think.

That analogy sounds like a cult but works like a charm haha. They know every in and out about don't starve so we should trust most of it.

But they also need feedback, so as a willow player I'll give mine, and hopefully everyone will give theirs and the skillset could come as refined as it could.

[Arcwell]

19 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

My conclusion is that: make her either lighter with embers or bearnie with summoning

Managing bernie and assisting him from far away like maxwell but having the possibility to assist in fighting too.

And embers doing the job all by yourself and focusing in skill(fingers and knowledge, like max)

But the skillset should be balanced, so make her be able to choose both, but not have the best of both worlds.

Now all of that I think should be her goal, and I have yet to see other suggestions based on what klei offered us.

Personally I do not think separating the two playstyles would be very enjoyable, but supposing you do, couldn't you accomplish this by simply not selecting both skills? Or are you suggesting there should be more skills for both sides to accommodate for two distinct playstyles, and if so, what skills would you suggest? Please let me know if I'm interpreting anything incorrectly here.

[Swiyss]

36 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

And really, how does this address your complaint about survival?  The real bottom line on that issue is that survival in DST is all about knowledge and only a little about skill.  You learn what is good and what is bad, how to get food, shelter, warmth, etc and then you know it.  10 years of playing this game Klei is not going to be able to make "being dry" a challenge.  At *best* it will be a nuisance that drives me to play towards unlocking its solution immediately.  And if there is no solution then its not a challenge, just a tax on playing

My idea that the surviving aspect of the game is dying comes from lots of things but I will briefly go through them.

They added brightshades, acid rain, boulders from earthquakes, glass rain, mutated frog rain etc.. That is good design in my opinion. But the only thing to do in the late game is megabasing, so they nerfed it to not kill pens, created the pillars etc.. which was also good. It's a good step.

But the flaw lies in brightshade gear itself making pig skin farms almost useless, same as eye mask.

Now I have a bunch of nightmare fuel and living logs laying around not being used for dark swords.

Creating a new reaper thing killed dark swords instead of making it better, same as brightshade gear ruining glass cutters, and they have a better skin too.

BS Helmet ruined most helmets, cause it is simply better, almost the same as armour, but bone armour is still better imo.

They added howlizter, so now walter is just useless, they added eye crystalizer, so now we have plantation 3 seasons of the year. Those things are making survivability easier at the cost of unlocking new rift stuff, but the very rift stuff is breaking the games aspect of survivability. Like BS helm making you immune to charlie, sure I liked that but now it makes the whole Idea of the game useless.

Until they add a new charlie attack that counters the bs helm, new use for old resources, new use for old items in the progression scene, new mobs that destroy your pillars if you're not smart enough etc.. the game will forever look redundant.

9 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Personally I do not think separating the two playstyles would be very enjoyable, but supposing you do, couldn't you accomplish this by simply not selecting both skills? Or are you suggesting there should be more skills for both sides to accommodate for two distinct playstyles, and if so, what skills would you suggest? Please let me know if I'm interpreting anything incorrectly here.

I have a topic on this, just check my skill tree idea and give me feedback there, is called willows feedback and suggestions.

Now i do think that if they don't wanna separate things, then make them somewhat good with each other, but only to a certain point where it is not draining every gameplay core and fundamental survival thing.

28 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Personally I do not think separating the two playstyles would be very enjoyable, but supposing you do, couldn't you accomplish this by simply not selecting both skills? Or are you suggesting there should be more skills for both sides to accommodate for two distinct playstyles, and if so, what skills would you suggest? Please let me know if I'm interpreting anything incorrectly here.

It's a but rushed and ruff still but I think I gathered some main ideas I and other from the community had here.

[comonavi]

6 hours ago, Swiyss said:

[removing disease] was the WORST thing they did in the game since beggining of DS from that current era. And I played through ALL the updates.

ok i've decided this is an elaborate troll and stopped reading, good day

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, Comonavi said:

ok i've decided this is an elaborate troll and stopped reading, good day

I don't know why so many people have that many strong opinions about something so blatantly meaningless. Could help being more adaptable yn?