Klei please listen. The "survival" aspect of the game is dying slowly.

[WONTow]

Wendy being able to kill 100 spiders day 1 by doing absolutely nothing:

Willow being able to kill 100 spiders after surviving 160 days, killing late game bosses and farming a bunch of mobs:  

[Swiyss]

5 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

among other things,
He has a tendency to blow things out of proportion to make things seem much stronger than they would otherwise normally be. Frankly I think this post is echoing a lot of that 'blowing out of proportion'.
It is very easy to look at a video like that and assume Willow's lunar flame deals insane DPS, but in reality it deals less DPS than a dark sword:
(The DPS value here is not 100% accurate because it rounds speed to the nearest decimal, but it's enough to show that lunar fire deals le

at first, I had and opinion about it. then I played the game, and my opinion about her after around 50 days and a boss rush is that she is INDEED overpowered for the early game. everything is easier, killing pigs, dealing with hounda, bee queen fight, splumonkeys, the ruins rush with her is absurd since she essentially have free embers and a super op lighter light, the bernie tanks every shadow creature.

it is not that one thing or another is overrated like you said, or that I'm exagerating. is that her kit now is a no-skill no-brainer spam button op auto refuilable embers boss and aoe monster killer. most of the people didn't play her.

[Mike23Ua]

16 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

Listen, survival is a relative term in this game at this point (or has always been), but having silly abilities on every character that kills everything with minimal effort, no risk or planning is simply boring.

On that note: I’m begging Klei ahead of Wendy’s skill tree to Nerf her (like they did Wolfgang) but allow me to invest skill points into her tree to lessen this Nerf.

Examples: Reinstate the Cooldown timer on how long it takes before you can Summon Abigail and only through sacrificing a kill near the flower. (same as Solo DS)

However, Through both the Sisturn, and skills I can allocate into the Sisturn, Speed up the flowers Bloom timer, AoE of Sisturns Sanity Effect, Remove the sacrifice requirement on summon- Etc..

But that’s just to Nerf her currently existing kit, I’d also like her to get new unique interesting gameplay content as well. <3

[Mr Giggio]

4 hours ago, Swiyss said:

You just need to kill the last bosse

see, I just started reading this post and already,  thats why I think u guys should reconsider all this powercreep and slowly dying drama

U just need to kill FREAKING CELESTIAL CHAMPION, the last freaking boss in the whole game that will require u to know RUINS, OCEAN, FIGHTING CRAB KING AND PEARLS TASKS, at least trying beefalo taming and surviving all the seasons to have it

JUST THAT

LIKE ??????????????????

Seriously whats wrong with you guys. Look at the bigger picture. If u can do CC u can have bonus cuz of that. The begginers will always be stuck in the gameplay till they learn how to do it or having friends to just mob it throught. Its not like everyone has that. If u can do it solo, props to you. But if you can do it then killing spiders with pretty fire instead of kitting with a spear KINDA DOESNT MATTER. 

U had to kill a lotta spiders to cold fire them cuz u had to not only surviving 160 days doing it but also killing a late boss. 

PLS.

JUST THINK TWICE AND CONSIDER LEARNING PROCESS CURVES THIS TIME
Im so done with u guys impressed by big numbers and youtube videos when we 9k hours player are happy by the fact we got different ways to do the same stuff CUZ WE CAN DO IT ANYWAY

[Swiyss]

2 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

Also, I would argue that disease never made the survival aspects of the game harder. If you got to the point where disease was affecting your transplanted plants, you would have the means to replace any lost plants easily. The mechanic was an annoyance and nothing more.

All I'm saying is that, from my unbiased and well experienced opinion on this feature, without any forum or friend opinion interference; actually actively playing with the feature on, and checking the wiki while testing it. I can surely and very confidently say that removing the feature was not a good idea, and that a change in stats would be perfect. That's it.

And on top of that, many many of you were the ones who exaggerated the feature being unplayable and annoying here on the forums. ALL of you who critized beard because of his exaggeration of things were the ones who did the exact same thing with the feature. And I, who was having a very good "standard don't starve together experience" was flabbergasted by this STUPID decision of REMOVING something from the game.

You don't like it? Just change the settings you dummy. Cause in practice, the feature WAS good and balanced. And a single nerf in numbers would ease your "exaggeration". Bunch of hypocrites.

10 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

see, I just started reading this post and already,  thats why I think u guys should reconsider all this powercreep and slowly dying drama

U just need to kill FREAKING CELESTIAL CHAMPION, the last freaking boss in the whole game that will require u to know RUINS, OCEAN, FIGHTING CRAB KING AND PEARLS TASKS, at least trying beefalo taming and surviving all the seasons to have it

JUST THAT

LIKE ??????????????????

Seriously whats wrong with you guys. Look at the bigger picture. If u can do CC u can have bonus cuz of that. The begginers will always be stuck in the gameplay till they learn how to do it or having friends to just mob it throught. Its not like everyone has that. If u can do it solo, props to you. But if you can do it then killing spiders with pretty fire instead of kitting with a spear KINDA DOESNT MATTER. 

U had to kill a lotta spiders to cold fire them cuz u had to not only surviving 160 days doing it but also killing a late boss. 

PLS.

JUST THINK TWICE AND CONSIDER LEARNING PROCESS CURVES THIS TIME

That is NOT the problem. You DON'T understand the consequences of having this spell at day 1. If the spell were only available while rifts were active, it would already be miles away from the stupidity we have right know. I killed CC with her already. Did it tonight, and now everytime I create a new world I'll be able to essentially have creative mode on anything quantity relatable on my face.

It doesn't matter that I had to know all of this stuff. Anyone playing the game for more than 150 hours know this stuff. For the love of god why are we considering people who can't even barely survive winter in the balance of a late game skill on a single character skill tree. That's out of control. They won't even know this exist until they go out of their way to use it. And yet it's locked behind only 1 character. We, as ACTUAL Willow players who will ACTUALLY rush late game and bosses with her should be the ONES with the strongest opinion about it. Most people agreeing with this don't even play willow. And the only reason they will is for this feature. They will hack the game and unlock everything in seconds. Then why should we consider this if you won't even participate in? I talked very little about wigfrid cause I don't play her. But now everyone seems to be a Willow main apparently.

Why can't we simply either make her normal/simpler again. Or if we're going all out, make her choose summoner(bearnie) or magic(embers) and put the nail on the coffin already. Jesus christ. If we're doing it, do it right.

[Mr Giggio]

13 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

You DON'T understand the consequences of having this spell at day

sorry but its quite the opposite. Im having sooooooooo much fun in the last three days trying [focusing on trying cuz Im having a lot of struggle actually doing fights instead of watchin dumb bait videos for likes]  to solo bee queen as willow using ember strats while u guys worried about that wishin it was back in the time when u had to build like 40 bunny houses and cheesse it throught bunnyman

 

the same strat

For everyone

in every account

in every server

 

But then if a character learns something that even with A HUGE AMOUNT OF EFFORT can offer a different and fun way to do the same tasks  A BUNCH OF BABIES THINK THE GAME IS DYING 

[Captain_Rage]

8 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

That is NOT the problem. You DON'T understand the consequences of having this spell at day 1. If the spell were only available while rifts were active, it would already be miles away from the stupidity we have right know. I killed CC with her already. Did it tonight, and now everytime I create a new world I'll be able to essentially have creative mode on anything quantity relatable on my face.

Yes, this whole thing is perplexing. I have no idea why such a feature should carry over between worlds. Small bonuses and skills, sure, if the developers insist on keeping the game rogue-lite, but starting with the most powerful abilities in new worlds is off-putting. Doesn't that make a huge dent in the replayability? I don't get it. The devs even said that the game is about implicit rewards in an interview long ago. Now they are doing exactly the opposite. Everybody has experienced the game by now and things have changed in that regard but I agree strongly that this direction the game is taking is very bad.

[Mr Giggio]

19 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

why are we considering people who can't even barely survive winte

because, gasp, they are the majority 

everyday people start the game

its. not. just. about. you. period.

[Mike23Ua]

15 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

Seriously whats wrong with you guys. Look at the bigger picture. If u can do CC u can have bonus cuz of that. The begginers will always be stuck in the gameplay till they learn how to do it or having friends to just mob it throught. It’s not like everyone has that. 

I mean I’m just going to brutally honest with you guys on this one: I don’t like the CC & AFW Affinity skill trees, mostly because I can’t reach that point of the game.. but ALSO because Klei said in the very beginning that they choose to give DLC updates to DST for Free because they did not want to further separate their fanbase between who has content & who doesn’t.

This is kinda the same situation though isn’t it? I mean yes I totally get that they want to give players this powerful game changing Choice they have to make with siding with Charlie to get her Benefits or Siding with Wagstaff for his while the opposing side becomes more menacing to you or Whatever…

BUT all this is Really doing is locking players out of character abilities, so that if for example someone has fought CC & AFW they can join fresh start new day one worlds with Noobs and be like “Hahaha My Willow can do this so she’s better than Yours!”

Its just (in my opinion) bad, I guess Klei’s intention with this was to try and dangle a cool power up or ability on a stick for gamers to chase after their characters Ultimate Ability perk or whatever, And I suppose that it could even encourage Team Work so that players who already have the unlocks help the ones who don’t.

ALTERNATIVELY However- It could also lead to Alienation & players outright kicking/banning you for not having the affinity perks unlocked or siding with their chosen side (whatever the case may be)

Of course all of this could stem from my own personal skill to unlock the abilities.. but how the hell can it possibly be considered “Fair” when some players Willows can Kamehahaha blast enemies into oblivion, while others can not?

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

sorry but its quite the opposite. Im having sooooooooo much fun in the last three days trying [focusing on trying cuz Im having a lot of struggle actually doing fights instead of watchin dumb bait videos for likes]  to solo bee queen as willow using ember strats while u guys worried about that wishin it was back in the time when u had to build like 40 bunny houses and cheesse it throught bunnyman

 

the same strat

For everyone

in every account

in every server

 

But then if a character learns something that even with A HUGE AMOUNT OF EFFORT can offer a different and fun way to do the same tasks  A BUNCH OF BABIES THINK THE GAME IS DYING 

Listen, i don't doubt you're doing that, I even saw you streaming it a couple days ago. It's just that this *fun* you're having is no different than playing Maxwell and doing the exact same thing, the problem is that it is super out of character for her to be able to have that much aoe in the start of the game. I know you need to farm some embers first, I know ruins rush is no easy. I know the bee queen fight is nowhere near as easy as wendy. But you need to understand the consequences of her cureent kit as a whole, as because you're sooo used to playing max, for you is balanced. But I'm here to give you a wes and wilson perspective, it is not great.

5 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

Yes, this whole thing is perplexing. I have no idea why such a feature should carry over between worlds. Small bonuses and skills, sure, if the developers insist on keeping the game rogue-lite, but starting with the most powerful abilities in new worlds is off-putting. Doesn't that make a huge dent in the replayability? I don't get it. The devs even said that the game is about implicit rewards in an interview long ago. Now they are doing exactly the opposite. Everybody has experienced the game by now and things have changed in that regard but I agree strongly that this direction the game is taking is very bad.

Yea. Wormwood late skill takes brightshade gear to use. And here is Willow, our beloved pyro having random varg sprites available at day 1 that deal aoe tentacle spike damage. And people think this is ok.

[Mr Giggio]

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

is no different than playing Maxwell and doing the exact same thing

dude cmon of course it is

wendy strats are one way to do it

wolf strats another

and it keep going

if one character allows u so what why not have it in many different ways to go for whatever fits your style

honestly...

[Swiyss]

4 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

because, gasp, they are the majority 

everyday people start the game

its. not. just. about. you. period.

Wth is this. Of course is not only about me, but how the actual freak am i gonna talk for everyone? Again, I can give you a very good 10 year willow player perspective. But how is the average joe influencing MY gameplay? We need both to be able to play accordingly. You're so out of this world.

[Mr Giggio]

31 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

you're sooo used to playing max, for you is balanced

Dude Im here it has more than 5 years before Wortox even arrived and mained Wortox for like 2 whole years after that 

I didnt started yesterday and the only thing I know is Maxwell. And the reason why I main  maxwell now its cuz we fiiiiiiinally have a way that I love more than jumping around cuz shadowmaster related perks that ACTUALLY WORKS

I baaarely  touched Maxwell before the refresh and I never would cuz HE WASNT FUN AT ALL

But then with the updates and people calling him strong [when wolf is better in every freakin aspect that is not  gathering related] instead of just inviting the new forms to do stuff AND COMPLETELY CHANGE UR WAY TO SEE THE GAME they rather complain 

Its bananas

[Swiyss]

6 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

Dude Im here it has more than 5 years

Im here before Wortox arrived

And mained Wortox for like 2 whole years after that 

I didnt started yesterday and the only thing I know is Maxwell

I just play maxwell cuz we fiiiiiiinally have a way that I love more than jumping around cuz shadowmaster related perks that ACTUALLY WORKS

I never touched Maxwell before the refresh and I never would cuz HE WASNT FUN AT ALL

But then with the updates and people calling him strong [when wolf is better in every freakin aspect that is not  gathering related] instead of just inviting the new forms to do stuff AND COMPLETELY CHANGE UR WAY TO SEE THE GAME they rather complain 

Listen, Maxwell is a all-in-one type of character. He was always supposed to be like this. That is his purpose as a character. Of COURSE Wolfgang is gonna shoot him out of the roof with his damage, cause guess what, that's what's he's supposed to do baby, no matter how much you want that in YOUR character kit.

And willow? Well she now has 6 bearnie abilites that are irrelevant, fire abilities that do things that already exist in the game instead of innovating, and 2 no sense resprites. I don't think you understand it. And probably never will.

[Mr Giggio]

4 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I don't think you understand it. And will probably never will.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

[Swiyss]

8 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

You're absolutely insane. The ego to do something like this is absolutely critical.

You're just very far away from topic rn.

Dude can't have a normal and fruitful discussion and call me arrogant in the most egocentric way.

[Captain_Rage]

Yeah, the point is not getting across. Or it is persistent trolling. I guess that is one way of shutting down the other side of the debate.

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, Captain_Rage said:

Yeah, the point is not getting across. Or it is persistent trolling. I guess that is one way of shutting down the other side of the debate.

He can't understand that in no way I'm trying to win an argument or something. I'm just putting my view, and he's putting his out. But in his brain he is this superior being apparently. I'm here focused on optimising the game experience for myself and everyone so we can have great and balanced results in the game end. And when one of the future players decide to reach late game they can understand how things were balanced around and how the game got to where it is. The devs in my opinion shouldn't have put too much at once in the first release of the beta like this, because now if they touch anything the backlash is gonna be insane. They can't nerf some things because they are fan favorite, furthermore they can't buff others because the character would be too heavy in one side and weak on another. The sad reality of backlash from people that do not have a full perspective on things will unfortunately discourage changes now. However they didn't grasp that of yet. Same as I don't have the "full view", so that somehow justifies releasing overpowered spells and resprites from existing features...

[Captain_Rage]

What I am starting to wish for is a more in-depth Rhymes With Play stream where the devs go over their train of thought or share with us what goes on when they come up with new content. The roadmap mentions reworks but it would be nice to hear the rationale behind the new and upcoming skill trees and also how they gauge community feedback.

[maxwell_winters]

2 hours ago, WONTow said:

Wendy being able to kill 100 spiders day 1 by doing absolutely nothing:

Willow being able to kill 100 spiders after surviving 160 days, killing late game bosses and farming a bunch of mobs:  

[Trips]

1 hour ago, Captain_Rage said:

Yes, this whole thing is perplexing. I have no idea why such a feature should carry over between worlds. Small bonuses and skills, sure, if the developers insist on keeping the game rogue-lite, but starting with the most powerful abilities in new worlds is off-putting. Doesn't that make a huge dent in the replayability? I don't get it. The devs even said that the game is about implicit rewards in an interview long ago. Now they are doing exactly the opposite. Everybody has experienced the game by now and things have changed in that regard but I agree strongly that this direction the game is taking is very bad.

Yeah, I might prefer a system where Insight doesn't carry over between worlds but the time between Insight gained is shorter.

I'm not sure how prolific speedrunning is in the larger community, but the current Insight seems to favor them, intentionally or not. 

16 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

What I am starting to wish for is a more in-depth Rhymes With Play stream where the devs go over their train of thought or share with us what goes on when they come up with new content. The roadmap mentions reworks but it would be nice to hear the rationale behind the new and upcoming skill trees and also how they gauge community feedback.

Spoiler

Pressure from Tencent to make an MMOlike despite clashing fundamental game design from its survival game roots...

(not sure how to separate the quote and spoiler blobs)

Disclaimer: for the most part I like skill trees. Without them I'd probably never play Woodie or Willow. I'm also generally fine with the direction the game is going so far as I don't think the survival elements of the game need to be perpetually difficult and/or annoying: players should be allowed to master aspects of the game. And as someone who chronically plays games and isn't your entry-level run-of-the-mill workforce gamer, I just don't really find the survival aspects that difficult anymore. The most interesting aspects of the game to me are resource gathering, gear progression and the combat (when it comes to the well-designed fights at least.. just remembered that you can't even kite Bee Queen with a mag and walking cane..)

[Swiyss]

3 hours ago, Swiyss said:

honestly, screw this, screw this whole topic. Klei, just when you make the wes skill tree, make him an abomination of a hard character, not annoying, but give me rewards on knowing how the game works. reward me by killing all bosses day 90 and zero'ing the game in seconds, if not, I will NEVER have replayability. cause I hate megabases.

People don't understand this type of frustation. They can mod their way into the game using my beloved character, killing her identity on the premise of hard content, killing the survival aspect of the game and destroying balance overall, all in the premise of some folks not having things others have, because people are jealous. Creating the worst solutions for the right problems, some people have what they want, while others are forgotten. And now that is time for her to shine I can't even put my finger on it? I thought that the game had space for everyone, but apparently we have to "shake" things a bit for the sake of evil-rooted feedback. I will die talking about how some things are simply wrong, and other are right. Max should be the one getting these random overpowered resprite features, not her.

Now we have people agreeing that when I get to the ruins I can easily(emphasis of this word) counter :

shadow creatures with bernie

splumonkeys with cold fire burns

permanent ember farm with splumonkeys

infinite lighter durability

lighter being almost as good as a lantern

bishops on fire cant even attack me

FREE star caller on ag fight, that can stack to give me sanity

no cd on anything and with very low cost

no limit to carrying embers

not to mention ALL of the possible moments in the game where I'll feel completely out of character by simply hacking/cheating my way into old things that concerned me once for the premise of "dude its fun haha willow go brrglglglrbrr". Feeling cold? Well I played for 80 days once on her so now I can create a star with embers from dead creatures, how lovely, like we didnt already had torches and trees, and also insulation gear. Bro, please understand, we are currently KILLING THE GAME. Literally, there's no reason for 50 items to exist, if in just 3 months worth of skill trees we're gonna invalidate ALL OF IT. What the actual F is next? Infinite unmanageable light radius and heat by day 1?

Why can't we have something linear, that chases progress with actual discovery of puzzles and actual skill being involved in the process? Both my rational thinking and reaction timing being tested at times. Instead of dumbed down content that has to be chased, and I don't have any problem with that, as long as items like brightshade gear won't completely negate around 10 other things in the game and make them useless. Things that were in the game since birth. You can't just put GOLD PLATED ARMOR ON A DISABLED PERSON.

You can't put caviar on a burned potato klei

You can't put diamonds in the mud.

If the core game is called don't starve and it's a survival game. And you wanna turn it into a RPG style roguelike than fix the games core mechanics, and not just do this nonsense destruction of the old game without some critical thinking.

Some folks can't understand that the fundamentals of the game COULD very much be implemented and improved alongside all of this. We don't need to forget old reing of giants because now we're having host of horrors or terrors below. And now, because apparently when you show people a video of a certain person they instantly get he ick and can't bother questioning you. Others think they're Gods by diminishing and invalidating the person instead of the opinion. I agree with some things said here, 100% they're true. But the issue still stands.

[Trips]

If I'm being real chief, it's clear you're getting pretty heated from the discourse. It's hard to have rational conversation as it devolves into ad hominem and all-but-literal mudslinging.

To not name anybody else, but sadly people do tend to match heated tones in threads like this causing mass derailing or threads to be just locked outright. 

Don't Starve Together isn't the only game in the world.. you can always follow other projects or games and try forming attachments to some that appeal more to what you want in a game, if you think this one is going far away from what you want personally. That and DST is very customizable even without mods, and nobody will scrutinize you for re-adding disease into your world as long as you don't expect or force anybody else to do the same. 

[Swiyss]

23 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

Wolfgang hits hard at day one sure, but we can't go back now right? He was always like this, and that was never a problem since the launch of the ds franchise. Since the dawn of the game, this character has always been overpowered compared to others, because that is his purpose, people don't understand that willow purpose cannot be the same as wendy or maxwell, because every character would be the same instead of actually having personality.

Wendy also is VERY strong day 1 imo too. But abigail dies very quickly against bosses, and willow was supposed to be this alternative gameplay with fire correlated things here and there. Not what we currently have. Willow is not like wolfgang, whose entire idea of a character is to be strong. She's supposed to be more like a mixture between wilson and wurt. A balanced mix of different playstyle with simplicity as a regular character. On the other hand, wendy is has it's downsides, as well as wolfgang. Everyone is different just like IRL. You will NEVER be able to fully compare them. But we can measure stability and how well they perform in the area and the way they were supposed to.

4 minutes ago, Trips said:

If I'm being real chief, it's clear you're getting pretty heated from the discourse. It's hard to have rational conversation as it devolves into ad hominem and all-but-literal mudslinging.

To not name anybody else, but sadly people do tend to match heated tones in threads like this causing mass derailing or threads to be just locked outright. 

Don't Starve Together isn't the only game in the world.. you can always follow other projects or games and try forming attachments to some that appeal more to what you want in a game, if you think this one is going far away from what you want personally. That and DST is very customizable even without mods, and nobody will scrutinize you for re-adding disease into your world as long as you don't expect or force anybody else to do the same. 

I hate with all my heart people that see themselves in others. I'm not like that, and I very much dislike being attributed with these things you called me, just because YOU feel that way. 

I'm a very passionate, focused, humble and argumentative person. And some mistake me as hot headed, angry, arrogant things because pretty much that's their idea of these tiny features i have. Yet on this specific discussion I already have almost a full book of writings about the topic. So it's being very productive atleast for me if you might ask.

[Mysterious box]

41 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

Just throwing my two cents in and not trying to bash but Wendy used to have a risk vs reward dynamic in her cooldown when Abigail dies but power creep said that wasn't good enough. I never really had a issue with Wolfgang being a character who did double damage though the speed boost was pushing it.