I am just venting - DST is heading wrong way

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, MoonWormwood said:

idk why you feel sad when you are the bigger casual

this last year was mostly focused on non casual gameplay(late game rifts)+making improvements for newcomers

Look… here’s the bottom line- DS & DST are Survival games. Are at least they’re supposed to be… However Klei designs survival content as to not step on the toes of players who build bases that span across multiple biomes of the game world.

in that regard: I blame not the players, but Klei. Klei allowed the game to pretty much be “conquered” after surviving the 4 weathers seasons, and 2 seasonal bosses- So of course players got happily settled in and built a massive happy little base.

However… The game now has to quote “try very hard not to spawn in your base” This is not only stupid, but it’s also exploitable- if the Entire game world is considered as “Base” except for one tiny little area on the map you intentionally left empty so you can force every Lunar Rift to spawn there… How is this new Late game survival content?

Its not.. Period.. it’s content you forced to spawn exactly where you wanted it to.

Which seems to be a major reoccurring problem with DST… Deerclops incoming? Bearger growls.. hounds barking?? Let’s just leave our base so they spawn where we want them to!

Much survival!

I can tell you from my days playing Ark Survival Evolved & spending 14 real world days to raise a Giga from infant to Adult, I wish like hell I could have just ran away from my base when the game randomly decides to drop a Titanosaur into it.

 

[grm9]

12 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The bosses have cool designs, some even have unique gameplay mechanics, they’re just massive freaking time sinks with huge pools of health & in some cases even Healing! if you EVER attempt to fight them alone..

Its too much

19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Because that’s sadly just what DST has turned into now, a game which caters to the casual masses

So do you want the game to be easier or harder?

[Mike23Ua]

Just now, grm9 said:

So do you want the game to be easier or harder?

Both.

certain content is too easy, such as weather seasons- there’s no difference between day 75, and day 3075.

While certain other content that is clearly designed and intended to be done in a group with other players, is unenjoyable for Solo players- Boss Fights. these have fun unique gameplay elements but they really need an option to scale based on how many players are fighting them to make for a fair fight. Because it’s not fun hitting a boss 367 times and spending over an hour doing so.

 

[_zwb]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Klei allowed the game to pretty much be “conquered” after surviving the 4 weathers seasons, and 2 seasonal bosses

This has been the case since don't starve was first made, that's what most survival games do, they let player survive and thrive. If you want endless challenge you'd have to play something else.

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

quote “try very hard not to spawn in your base”

Ughhh not this again, Mike I don't want to do personal attacks but at this point you're either stupid or trolling. I have explained to you multiple times that rifts directly spawning in your base has no counterplay, it is unfair and it's no fun. Yes the game has deerclops smashing your base, but they don't give Deerclops god mode, you can kill her, but you can not stop a rift.

14 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

it’s also exploitable- if the Entire game world is considered as “Base” except for one tiny little area on the map you intentionally left empty

You do realise you would have to cover the entire map with structures for this to work right? You'd spend hours building signs using hexagonal tesselation, if you're willing to do this I'd say it's fair you gets to control the rift.

 

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

 

[Antynomity]

4 hours ago, MoonWormwood said:

Snip

Bruh

[Evelo]

Well we are entitled to our own opinions. I think the Celestial Portal is a horrible feature but that's my opinion. It is Klei's game, what they do with it is their choice.

That's my opinion at least.

[sudoku]

Just wanna share a final thought on the matter I just had.. 

I don't have a problem with megabasers playing how they like to play.

What I do have an issue with is when that playstyle (and by playstyle  I mean the act of building up the map over thousands of days) - which largely was adopted and evolved due to a lack of gameplay and things to do once players mastered DS's and DST's initial content starts taking precedent over or shaping any new gameplay or content that klei tries to add to the game.

Megabasing should always be the end result of completing all content and having nothing better to do. It should in no form have any bearing on the development of new content or else the game will always remain stagnant to adhere to the environment where megabasing gameplay was born and thrives. 

[Dextops]

25 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Just wanna share a final thought on the matter I just had.. 

I don't have a problem with megabasers playing how they like to play.

What I do have an issue with is when that playstyle (and by playstyle  I mean the act of building up the map over thousands of days) - which largely was adopted and evolved due to a lack of gameplay and things to do once players mastered DS's and DST's initial content starts taking precedent over or shaping any new gameplay or content that klei tries to add to the game.

Megabasing should always be the end result of completing all content and having nothing better to do. It should in no form have any bearing on the development of new content or else the game will always remain stagnant to adhere to the environment where megabasing gameplay was born and thrives. 

While I do agree with the general statement I don’t find it applicable to THE CURRENT (it could be applicable later in the future) situation at hand. Things like the old hail and brightshades don’t really go for destroying your base as a whole that much, but instead go for things that are used for decor. So when there are things that are directly targeted towards a mega base play style that doesn’t effect other play styles as much and doesn’t have sufficient counters nor acts as an interactive hurdle or challenge you persevere through i think it’s the input from a mega baser that matters most in a situation like this.

[sudoku]

2 minutes ago, Dextops said:

While I do agree with the general statement I don’t find it applicable to THE CURRENT (it could be applicable later in the future) situation at hand. Things like the old hail and brightshades don’t really go for destroying your base as a whole that much, but instead go for things that are using for decor. So when there are things that are directly targeted towards a mega base play style that doesn’t have sufficient counters nor acts as an interactive hurdle or challenge you persevere through i think it’s the input from a mega baser that matters most in a situation like this.

But how do you design an environmental challenge when megabases can be (a.) anywhere on the map that span entire biomes, and (b.) comprised of almost any object or structure in the game. 

The idea of plantlife evolving post endgame to become more of a threat is a great idea, however you can see in its execution that they ran into the two points above... And to be quite honest I dont think there is a single interesting environmental challenge they can come up with that doesnt butt heads against those two points.

You can see in the past before megabasing affected such decisions, they used parameters such as location of nearest player structure, or screens away from the player to handle spawning mechanics for threats (deerclops, wildfires) But obviously these are too vague a descriptor when entering megabases into the equation. 

I just feel like its a big ask to balance around these spoils of excess and it usually comes at the cost of weakened game mechanics. 

[DJ850]

13 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

Destroying decoration is not challenge

Correct, it's not Challenge; It's a mechanic, in a game of gritty survival. Predictability is only gotten from experience, thus how it's subverted in future plays, and noting cues. 

 

 

14 hours ago, Antynomity said:

This is not Minecraft where they need to care about long lasting worlds because the game is literally made only for creative expression.

 

I myself am goddam tired of all content being super inconsequential to everything just because someone's base might be hurt, I'm a megabaser, and I'm aware that there are already a handful of ways to counter a ton of the new threats added in the last few updates, yet when I see someone complain it's always the same crap, and what I want to say is: get good.

 

Alternatively, don't turn on the new content, no one, not even klei is forcing you to do so.

The words of God on the dilemma for basers. If people can't handle it, it ain't their game to play, or they need to tinker their own experience, and not everyone else's. 

 

12 hours ago, grm9 said:

 

The point isn't having to get a warning, but having a way to prevent any negative consequences (aside from the resources spent on preventing the consequences perhaps, but that's less of a price than a destroyed base or getting killed, and the entire game is built on such tradeoffs of having to spend resources on solving issues). You can prevent any negative consequences by either burning the corpse or killing it.

 

And the people causing this game's fall can't grasp that primary concept to the game. Which is why I ranted about klei standing their ground with their game's design and not letting the player base make the majority of decisions when the main latest don't even have 100 (or 250) hours of experience in the very game. Otherwise it leads to the cascade we're in currently. 
Next thing I know (Or others) is that it meets a more dire and tragic fate than Spiral Knights 

[Dextops]

35 minutes ago, sudoku said:

But how do you design an environmental challenge when megabases can be (a.) anywhere on the map that span entire biomes, and (b.) comprised of almost any object or structure in the game. 

The idea of plantlife evolving post endgame to become more of a threat is a great idea, however you can see in its execution that they ran into the two points above... And to be quite honest I dont think there is a single interesting environmental challenge they can come up with that doesnt butt heads against those two points.

You can see in the past before megabasing affected such decisions, they used parameters such as location of nearest player structure, or screens away from the player to handle spawning mechanics for threats (deerclops, wildfires) But obviously these are too vague a descriptor when entering megabases into the equation. 

I just feel like its a big ask to balance around these spoils of excess and it usually comes at the cost of weakened game mechanics. 

I agreed with your statement that at some point you’re gonna have to uproot something, but the current environmental threats on the surface aren’t going anywhere near well designed nor do I think that this divide of mega basers and everyone else makes much sense (at least currently). Brightshades are more likely to target decor plants, and the old version of lunar hail would slowly kill off animals which not only slowly made the world an empty wasteland but really effected animal pens set up by mega basers and both of these had little to no reliable counters. These are things that seem targeted to mega basers explicitly, and much less to everyone else.  I think boulders and acid rain are better examples of good environmental threats. Whether you mega base or not having your base be destroyed indiscriminately or losing health/durability is a bad thing, BUT those things have counters with them that are very reliable, that’s why I like them a lot more than what we currently have on the surface. I think the surface needs ironically “less” of a focus with its environmental threats where it indiscriminately effects all players at least sort of evenly (and just more counters for them) if not any of this at least give us more world generation settings for rifts instead of “on and off” for it all. 

Edit: I think I went on a long tangent so I thought I’d try to sum up my point in a more streamline fashion but basically: the idea that mega basers might effect content so that it becomes very undertuned and ruin it for everyone is something that might happen with over world post rift shenanigans but I don’t it’s something that’s happening yet (or may happen at all) because the overworld environmental hazards seem directly targeted to megabasers and changes to them have little effect on different types of players

[Masked Koopa]

Survival isn't ever gonna remain difficult for you unless you're incapable of learning. You can and will learn how to play optimally no matter how difficult the game is made, which will reduce it to going through the motions. To think that the game is going to remain "difficult survival" ad infinitum is silly, I reccomend you find a different game to quench your thirst for challenge, or play uncompromising mod. You will eventually learn the metas of these as well, but such is the nature of games.

[Popian]

51 minutes ago, Dextops said:

the old version of lunar hail would slowly kill off animals which not only slowly made the world an empty wasteland but really effected animal pens set up by mega basers and both of these had little to no reliable counters.

The rate of acquisition outpaces the rate of attrition if mob is renewable like Koalefants, it doesn't matter if the mob automatically renews/heals like goats/beefalo, and if you care about the mob because it is for resources/non-renewable/harder to get/you are tired or renewing put it under ocean trees or plant evergreens around them or have them in areas that you don't frequent.

Hail turned out to be a rather thoughtful weather effect as it combines the decisions of [shelter with bubble or shelter without bubble or no shelter] x [continue or stop what you were doing] so it isn't definitively a blessing or curse. Adding the damage back to mobs (which could continue to ignore passive mobs (except Grass Gekkos because they really want to kill them for whatever reason)) would be great for balancing out the risk of not sheltering yourself with the reward of getting damage on enemies.

[-Variant]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

As just an example.. Cave Sinkholes and bats spawning out of them werent in the game when it first released, that was something that was added later.

Had that content been added to the game in TODAYS generation of gamers: I guarantee you Bats would not flock out of those holes and potentially invade your base..

Having personally survived from that Era to Today's modern era, I can say that yes, you're probably correct, but not in a way I'd consider good.

Design philosophies have changed drastically since then, most, for the better.
I can assure you if the hypothetical of bats from open caves were to be introduced in today's modern era, we'd most likely get a counter to them. Klei listens, maybe not in always visible ways, but if I sat down and dug up every single ounce of stuff they've listened to and added, I'd be here for hours.

I say this because I can't actually recall a single person that sits there and says they enjoy bats endlessly flocking their base. Actually, I've been berated and harassed for accidently opening caves too close to where people settle down since the mechanic is that tiresome. 
I feel if it were added in modern day, we'd have gotten sharing genuine criticisms and gotten a way to counter or make them less annoying. Having an almost genuine endless swarm of mobs constantly spawning on you isn't challenging.

[chirsg]

Brightshades suck. If I'm not wigfrid, they really aren't fun to deal with at all. 

[mykenception]

21 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

While certain other content that is clearly designed and intended to be done in a group with other players, is unenjoyable for Solo players- Boss Fights.

With the amount of players who like to play alone and still face the challenge of these bosses, this is highly only your opinion, not a fact. 

Some bosses may be harder to deal with solo, but that's where dedication and skill based from experience or creative thinking comes into play on how players tackle these challenges

[Mike23Ua]

13 minutes ago, mykenception said:

With the amount of players who like to play alone and still face the challenge of these bosses, this is highly only your opinion, not a fact. 

Some bosses may be harder to deal with solo, but that's where dedication and skill based from experience or creative thinking comes into play on how players tackle these challenges

Alternatively… it’s also how I waste 12 hours of my life trying to complete one tiny little boss fight that would be over in a couple minutes with multiple players attacking, just so I can get to/unlock the parts of the game I’ll actually enjoy.

[lenship2]

12 hours ago, chirsg said:

Brightshades suck. If I'm not wigfrid, they really aren't fun to deal with at all. 

they're fun at first, with a lot of unique mechanics behind them

but having the third wave of brightshades come and disable all farming after only an hour of rifts gets a bit frustrating

its a really unique concept, but in execution it gets really annoying imo (especially for wurt/warly players)

[Spino43]

5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Alternatively… it’s also how I waste 12 hours of my life trying to complete one tiny little boss fight that would be over in a couple minutes with multiple players attacking, just so I can get to/unlock the parts of the game I’ll actually enjoy.

Better than wasting hundreds of hours complaining on the forum...

[Cassielu]

On 10/24/2023 at 4:15 AM, Mike23Ua said:

try very hard not to spawn in your base

*Sigh*

Have you ever wanted to look at a problem from another Angle? You act as if Klei really intended to introduce a disaster without any countermeasure and stopped by the community, but it probably wasn't. Maybe they just saw that it didn't meet expectations and changed it.

The dangers and challenges Rift offers are independent of its location, BS will find the plants no matter where they are, Acid rain will fall no matter where they are, Bosses will turn into zombies also no matter where they are. The Rift itself not a devastating disaster you thouth, it's a difficult resource to exploit, providing players with the pure brilliance/horror needed to fight with these challenges.

[Szczuku]

On 10/24/2023 at 4:25 AM, -Variant said:

I say this because I can't actually recall a single person that sits there and says they enjoy bats endlessly flocking their base.

Isn't that the point though? To keep players away from having cave entrances be a core part of their base, to introduce a small threat on the surface in exchange for all the goodies that are found underground? 

Why should every single thing have a counter, can't some mechanics exist just to be a problem for the player?

I mean, nothing giant of course, solutions for stuff like antlion, wildfires, sandstorms, moonstorms etc are needed, obviously. But I find surface batilisks to be perfectly uncompromising and fitting right into the game

[somethin]

1 hour ago, Szczuku said:

Isn't that the point though? To keep players away from having cave entrances be a core part of their base, to introduce a small threat on the surface in exchange for all the goodies that are found underground? 

Why should every single thing have a counter, can't some mechanics exist just to be a problem for the player?

I mean, nothing giant of course, solutions for stuff like antlion, wildfires, sandstorms, moonstorms etc are needed, obviously. But I find surface batilisks to be perfectly uncompromising and fitting right into the game

Bats are so easy to deal with though. Make a few bunny huts around then fence them in. Boom. No more annoying bats problem.

[-Variant]

1 hour ago, Szczuku said:

can't some mechanics exist just to be a problem for the player?

I absolutely 100% agree, I think some threats are perfectly fine without cures or ways around them.
I don't mind stuff that limits where you can base, either, I think HAM's poison jungles are super cool for an example.

But... I don't think bats are that well designed if that's the angle we want to take.
They're not threatening, they're avoidable during the day, too. They're also just, super damn plentiful for something that clutters the place with guano. 
It'd be like, if some areas of the map just had infinite birchnutter spawns. Like, yeah, sure, they're easy to kill and drop something edible but it's not really a threat, just more of a bother. 

[arubaro]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:11 AM, HowlVoid said:

So, damned if they do and damned if they don't...

While yes difficulty≠tedium, it's a difficult line to draw sometimes. And even harder to appease everyone.

Well look, the game isn't going to be getting harder unless Klei nudges people out of their comfort zones. 

The way I see it, if you make the entire world your base then reap the rewards of painting a biome sized target on your back (or several). 

Monetization be damned. They can't just tip toe around not being able to change the landscape forever. Of the more memorable apocalyptic events in DS series are volcanic eruptions in shipwrecked. How can we have truly cataclysmic events if someone says, "hey Klei, make the game difficult. Oh but I don't want you moving a single strand of grass". It's not possible. 

We have had base destroying events since reign of giants. It's deerclops' whole thing. 

This is DST, not the Sims. 

As for not accessing the content locked behind base destroying portals... Maybe the rewards are the risk of going through that destruction. Don't want to risk the destruction? Maybe you don't deserve the reward... Just a thought.

if someone finds difficult to lose a build or even the base in lategame means that the person is bad at the game

in late you know most recipes and you already have on you most stuff needed to survive, destroying structure wont affect survival, just add tedium

what we need is real difficulty, mobs and bosses with complex patterns and coming in crowds, hazards like cave miasma affecting more places, poison, etc

later you see people crying because 3 brighshades are difficult... lmao is precisely what we need 3 or even 6! (not saying that their spawn rate is tedious)

people hammer moon quay monkey's houses when raiding their island fighting multiple of them is fun

klei even nerfed hound waves adding a half baked mob like varglets because "omg klei 8 hounds is imposible buaaa buaaa" now they arent easier but also we got BS staff... ridiculous, meanwhile people asking for rifts to destroy a shrine and hail killing critter... 0 IQ

how they will add real difficult stuff if people come arround to reduce or eliminate difficult things or cry when something difficult is added

destroying a crockpot only affects the newbie that makes daily meatballs and not the experience player that has a bundle with food for years

destruction is only a flashy fake difficulty. Like a baby toy to trick people into thinking something difficult is happening

people want difficult stuff while instead are asking for dumb fireworks....

[grm9]

2 hours ago, arubaro said:

"omg klei 8 hounds is imposible buaaa buaaa" now they arent easier but also we got BS staff...

the problem with hound waves wasn't that they were hard, but that they were overly frequent and annoying, since they aren't hard to deal with, you can either wait for them to synchronize their barks once in half a minute and do 1-2 hits which isn't skillful nor fun and very time-consuming or use catapults/minions for at least distraction to make them very easy to deal with and killing 8 hounds with brightshade staff is also utterly boring and doesn't require a brain, you just shoot and run, so it'd be mostly a need to spend some resources and some amount of time in X days doing something that anyone can do