Skill trees aren't inherently bad, but some people wish they encorperated downsides and balance.

[Scrimbles]

A lot of people are finding themselves either arguing against skill trees because they make the game easier, or arguing for skill trees because new content is fun.

I just wanted to point out that, as someone who made a thread that blew up about power creep in the game, I don't actually inherently hate the idea of skill trees, someone like me has a problem with how they are more objective buffs to the characters, and I'm someone who wishes they were made with balance in mind.

Instead of catering to people who only care about new content, why not cater to both sides by adding in some unique downsides to skills as well? As some sort of balance?

If you are someone who enjoys new content but doesn't care about balance, is it not true that you might still enjoy skill trees even if they were balanced? If they included downsides? We can have the best of both worlds here, the problem is that Klei is only focusing on one side of this issue, when all sides can be pleased. The people who like new content can get their new content, and the people who are concerned with balance can get balanced content.


As a minor example for what I might propose, what about some downsides that feed into a character specialization? Something like Woodie's lumberjack perk to make a new Wooden Helmet giving him bonus resistances for wearing wooden armor, but weakened resistances for other types of armor? That would incentive specializing into wooden equipment, while balancing him out by weakening some other options.

Perks like that are what make a character truly great, feeling like you have an amazing trade off for an equal downside are some of the most fun things to a person like me.

Wigfrid being a great hunter and fighter, but losing out on non meat foods makes sense, she is directly better at what she NEEDS to do to survive, while being unable to partake in areas shes not specialized towards. Wendy being weaker on her own pushes her to rely on Abigail, which feels great.

And who are two of the most popular characters? Exactly!

We can have balance, allowing both sides to get what they want. But people like me feel like that balance has been lost, and is no longer being considered.

[-Variant]

I'm loving a lot of the creative ways people have been using the skill tree perks. Stuff like using the Beaver's tail slam to speed up and swim on boats is absolutely genius.

I like a lot of the strats people are coming up with, the Woodie treeguard stuff is very creative, though I confess full stop that one seems... kinda busted ahah. (Lookin at you, Toadstool.)

I'd love if some of the perks came with downsides of their own, it can be creative without sucking the joy out of it. It adds extra depth and changes up playstyles a lot, too!
Could do a little risk/reward here and there as well. I hadn't considered it but making the Lumberjack perk wedge you into using Wooden stuff more sounds funny, it could be neat. I wonder if something similar could be shared to some of the other characters.

[Lord of Bunwich]

The abilities would need a much stronger upside to justify a downside. Most of these are small bonuses - even taking into account all 8 points you get, together. Adding any consequential downside to most of the Skills added would defeat their purpose, entirely.

[Scrimbles]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Bunwich said:

The abilities would need a much stronger upside to justify a downside. Most of these are small bonuses - even taking into account all 8 points you get, together. Adding any consequential downside to most of the Skills added would defeat their purpose, entirely.

That's why I suggested what I suggested with Woodie's perk.

If its a small perk that doesn't really impact much, then there's not much need for a downside I suppose, but then that still leaves us with objective buffs to characters.

[-Variant]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Bunwich said:

Most of these are small bonuses

Realistically the small perks shouldn't get downsides. I could not imagine Wormwood's butterfly perk getting a downside! Unless it's like... some sort of immoral Butterfly that erases you from existence or something.

I ultimately only feel like the ones that really change up how you play should get some sort of tie-in change.
Woodie's Weremoose buffs are all upsides and essentially free to drag into any world from the get-go once you've got them. 
I could totally see Klei taking a page from another game's balancing, maybe try giving him super strong damage at the cost of having slightly less time to dish it out. Nothing too intrusive, stuff like that!

[Dextops]

Despite being happy with how it is now, adding downsides to certain choices would be nice as to make it so making the choices have more importance. I liked how it was done with woodies were forms where you could only choose one. This puts more emphasis on choice and adding downsides would add more on top of that which is something i'd really like to see. If it was implemented i'd hope the downsides be creative instead of just some sort of stat penalty ect.

[-Variant]

Just now, Dextops said:

If it was implemented i'd hope the downsides be creative instead of just some sort of stat penalty ect.

THIS! You can change it up and be creative with it, simple stat changes are one of the driest ways to change things!

[maradyne]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Bunwich said:

The abilities would need a much stronger upside to justify a downside. Most of these are small bonuses - even taking into account all 8 points you get, together. Adding any consequential downside to most of the Skills added would defeat their purpose, entirely.

I'm not sure if it was intentional, but you nailed one of the problems with some current skills here...
Small, inconsequential buffs that aren't much on their own, but all together amount to large power boosts with no change to the character otherwise. But, they're also mixed in with little side perks, or QoL changes...or large sudden boosts granted by 1 point.

I suppose I feel like there should be more special handling per skill, and for skill gain conditions.
I...also feel like sticking to the same number of unlockable points per character resulted in some spreading out of perks to fill space, where more limited but simultaneously more impactful choices (with their own tradeoffs) would've been a lot more interesting.

[Frashaw27]

I like the idea, but I feel that it should only apply to the bigger skills, the ones that can really like shift gameplay, like the were-form masteries, or the total damage increases from Wolfgang's alignment. Here's a few reasons why I think that:

1) It helps provide some contrast between more easily got skills and the higher tier/better ones

Like comparing the humble spear to the devastating dark sword, in order for differences to be established and risk/reward, there needs a base line established. By having every perk have a type of downside, it lessens the impact of "Oh this perk is really good, but it has a downside, so there's something I have to consider".  So instead of having them given out piecemeal, it would be better to lump some downsides onto the bigger perks so you can choose between having a menagerie of meager skills that don't hinder you but also aren't spectacular, or you can choose to go big or go home, which I think would be the better alternative. For example, Woodie's Werebeaver efficency increases would be free because they're both early on in the skill tree and also not pants crappingly strong. In contrast, the lunar alignment would both make him immune to the effects of the Full Moon, but also make it so that it's harder to transform on command, like there's a % chance it doesn't work but would be 100% after eating 2 totems (meaning the 3rd would always work) or something. I feel that would be a decent enough trade off, but that's also just my idea.

2) Some perks just straight up don't need them

The problem I have with your inital idea is that it seems like all perks are given downsides, which I think is a bit unfair for some perks. Like I don't think I should be punished for wanting to craft saplings or having butterflies be not scared of me. Not only do some of these not really having a 1:1 downside equivalent like your wooden hat example (which I also don't think needs a debuff, but that's besides my point) but it also discourages some inital exploration into the skill tree as you aren't really given a safe barrier of entry before the game clocks you besides the head with constant decisions over, very inconsequential things.

Anyways, I really like the idea of some of the bigger perks getting some downsides. Not only does it make Wilson's skill tree better as he wouldn't have any skills with downsides, thus maintaining some form of his original power in not being handicapped at all, but it also makes it so that it's not entirely harming the player. However, I do see why Klei didn't go down this route as it's not exactly the most appealing idea to say "here's your downside because you engaged with our content' in the form of a post. It would eventually become less controversial after a day or two of the forums burning down like usual, but it still would cause a bit of strife at first.

[Anthony_L3hr]

I want the Treeguard Feller perk to be reworked into a skill that has you using Lucy to deal immense damage against plant/wooden enemies, so Treeguards are still good to fight against but now include creatures like Mushgnomes, Lureplants even, Birchnutters, maybe Brightshades for the third upgrade? The catch is that only Lucy the Axe is able to do the increased damage and still does her 13 damage against regular enemies like pigmen. I like to call the reworked skill "Force of Nature" It can be leveled like the old skill was.

[HowlVoid]

I like this because it opens the door for some really creative stuff.

Downsides can synergize with characters for fun gameplay, like wormwood not being able to heal but can craft easy bat bats. I ignore crockpots and have a mm diet.

I'll agree the reworks were almost entirely buffs and this could be the chance to make some adjustments to that. Picking the downsides I can personally manage even has a chance to reward skill vs someone taking easier ones.

It definitely opens up the game for more diversity.

[Ohan]

8 hours ago, -Variant said:

I like a lot of the strats people are coming up with, the Woodie treeguard stuff is very creative,

Imo it was creative when it took Wickerbottom + applied horticulture -> dead evergreens + woodie. To summon a bunch of treeguards. 

the treeguard effigy removes all creativity and just serves mega boosted minions for u on a silver platter whenever u want. To throw against any boss with aoe or tree felling moves. 

Its not a creative thing to use something exactly for its intended purpose . 

the entire treeguard line of perks makes woodie a better living log farmer than wormwood if u can manage the simple task of kiting treeguards. But nobody is mentioning this. 

[Arcwell]

25 minutes ago, Ohan said:

the entire treeguard line of perks makes woodie a better living log farmer than wormwood if u can manage the simple task of kiting treeguards. But nobody is mentioning this. 

In terms of raw living logs per second assuming you don't have more healing than you know what to do with, yeah, I'd agree with you.

That said, Wormwood still has an important niche over Woodie in that he doesn't require living logs to make living logs (each idol costs 2). This means in earlygame ruins rushing, Wormwood can craft ruins staves without needing to find a living tree / treeguard / lunar grotto first.

[Antynomity]

30 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Imo it was creative when it took Wickerbottom + applied horticulture -> dead evergreens + woodie. To summon a bunch of treeguards. 

the treeguard effigy removes all creativity and just serves mega boosted minions for u on a silver platter whenever u want. To throw against any boss with aoe or tree felling moves. 

Its not a creative thing to use something exactly for its intended purpose . 

the entire treeguard line of perks makes woodie a better living log farmer than wormwood if u can manage the simple task of kiting treeguards. But nobody is mentioning this. 

yeah it just feels way better to think stuff a bit through and cooperate that idea with a different player to achieve good results, just getting tree guards for free is not fun, kinda removes the need for options like mush gnomes, wormwood + wortox or just using bearger in a bitchnut forest to spawn poisoned birch nuts, or at least makes them less useful.

[Ohan]

21 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

That said, Wormwood still has an important niche over Woodie in that he doesn't require living logs to make living logs (each idol costs 2).

Yes i am aware.

A niche that is only worth mentioning up until woodie stumbles across his first totally normal tree, after which hes set with better living log production and roided out minions for the rest of the game. 

A day ~1-10 niche (generous estimate) vs a day 10-10,000 niche lol. 

[Arcwell]

10 minutes ago, Ohan said:

A day ~1-10 niche (generous estimate) vs a day 10-10,000 niche lol. 

Hey, we value different things. That's alright. I for one am never going to play a 10,000 day world 

[Ohan]

1 hour ago, Arcwell said:

Hey, we value different things. That's alright. I for one am never going to play a 10,000 day world 

I think you know well enough what i meant by that . 

do u only play until u rush the ruins and craft ur first star caller without ever stepping foot in a forest beforehand then?

Cuz thats the only hypothetical situation where ww’s living log production would have the edge over new woodie. 

as soon as new woodie gets hold of two living logs ww’s log ability is outclassed in output.

Which is not fair if u compare what woodie has going for him outside of that vs what wormwood has. 

i dont really understand the point of this back and forth when u agreed with what i originally said. 
 

ruins rush niche while dodging totally normal trees is not worth mentioning in the face of new woodie’s LL output that also enables treeguard armies. 

edit: i dont really want to keep off-topic-ing this thread.

[ALCRD]

10 hours ago, -Variant said:

Realistically the small perks shouldn't get downsides. I could not imagine Wormwood's butterfly perk getting a downside!

Wilson's torch range perk: Torches are a lot brighter - downside : Sets your character ablaze if held for too long xD

[00petar00]

12 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

As a minor example for what I might propose, what about some downsides that feed into a character specialization? Something like Woodie's lumberjack perk to make a new Wooden Helmet giving him bonus resistances for wearing wooden armor, but weakened resistances for other types of armor? That would incentive specializing into wooden equipment, while balancing him out by weakening some other options.

The issue with your suggestion is that skill trees in games are often powerups and don't associate with downsides.

The example you gave is only a single downside out of 4 full skill trees already existing in the game and I don't even agree with it. If all other armor for woodie gets a decrease in protection %, that ability wouldn't be worth picking as his wooden helmet won't be 95% damage resistance, so why would you want to pick it if every 95% resistance armor gets a debuff?

This also limits your choice to one type of armor he can make.

 

I wouldn't mind if there was some trade off on some really powerful abilities but it isn't easy to find a balance between them while not liming player choice in game and it is much easier for klei to just go all in on skill trees as powerups, they already said that brightshades are the weakest enemies we will encounter from rifts, the current buffs with skill tree means that they can add more difficult enemies later on.

Everyone already knows how updates are released partially and we need to wait and see.

[Arcwell]

40 minutes ago, Ohan said:

I think you know well enough what i meant by that . 

do u only play until u rush the ruins and craft ur first star caller without ever stepping foot in a forest beforehand then?

Cuz thats the only hypothetical situation where ww’s living log production would have the edge over new woodie. 

as soon as new woodie gets hold of two living logs ww’s log ability is outclassed in output.

Which is not fair if u compare what woodie has going for him outside of that vs what wormwood has. 

i dont really understand the point of this back and forth when u agreed with what i originally said. 
 

ruins rush niche while dodging totally normal trees is not worth mentioning in the face of new woodie’s LL output that also enables treeguard armies. 

edit: i dont really want to keep off-topic-ing this thread.

What I'm trying to say is that they both have unique ideal use case scenarios and because of that I don't think either of them is unfair or that they step on each other's toes. I've personally had several boss rush worlds where no living tree spawned at all, and having Wormwood's living logs in that scenario would be very helpful. The abilities they have outside of living log gathering are fundamentally different and can't really be compared because the value you would gain from them is entirely dependent on playstyle.

This is of course all my opinion, you're free to disagree with it just as you're free to advocate for buffing Wormwood's living log gathering or nerfing Woodie's living log gathering. I would not say no to a Wormwood buff.

And yeah, I'll stop with this topic too, just wanted to reply to what you asked.

[Jakepeng99]

11 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

A lot of people are finding themselves either arguing against skill trees because they make the game easier, or arguing for skill trees because new content is fun.

I just wanted to point out that, as someone who made a thread that blew up about power creep in the game, I don't actually inherently hate the idea of skill trees, someone like me has a problem with how they are more objective buffs to the characters, and I'm someone who wishes they were made with balance in mind.

Instead of catering to people who only care about new content, why not cater to both sides by adding in some unique downsides to skills as well? As some sort of balance?

If you are someone who enjoys new content but doesn't care about balance, is it not true that you might still enjoy skill trees even if they were balanced? If they included downsides? We can have the best of both worlds here, the problem is that Klei is only focusing on one side of this issue, when all sides can be pleased. The people who like new content can get their new content, and the people who are concerned with balance can get balanced content.


As a minor example for what I might propose, what about some downsides that feed into a character specialization? Something like Woodie's lumberjack perk to make a new Wooden Helmet giving him bonus resistances for wearing wooden armor, but weakened resistances for other types of armor? That would incentive specializing into wooden equipment, while balancing him out by weakening some other options.

Perks like that are what make a character truly great, feeling like you have an amazing trade off for an equal downside are some of the most fun things to a person like me.

Wigfrid being a great hunter and fighter, but losing out on non meat foods makes sense, she is directly better at what she NEEDS to do to survive, while being unable to partake in areas shes not specialized towards. Wendy being weaker on her own pushes her to rely on Abigail, which feels great.

And who are two of the most popular characters? Exactly!

We can have balance, allowing both sides to get what they want. But people like me feel like that balance has been lost, and is no longer being considered.

Oh i feel stupid now since i made something like this and did not see this, i 100% agree and this is the way it should be done.

[NNOUS]

I personally consider that some woodie buffs and wormwood buff is justifiable cuz those were needed.  as a trade for woodie an idea could be after using idols, return to human form would apply a hunger drain debuff as if "need nutrients to keep up the enegry drain while in wereform".

the straight buffs for wolfgang is however need to have a defuff as like : doing +25% damage when mighty, taking 25% damage form all source, as he grow bigger, also easier to get hit by.

 

[Jakepeng99]

11 minutes ago, NNOUS said:

I personally consider that some woodie buffs and wormwood buff is justifiable cuz those were needed.  as a trade for woodie an idea could be after using idols, return to human form would apply a hunger drain debuff as if "need nutrients to keep up the enegry drain while in wereform".

the straight buffs for wolfgang is however need to have a defuff as like : doing +25% damage when mighty, taking 25% damage form all source, as he grow bigger, also easier to get hit by.

 

I saw someone with the idea to make the shadow perk also make woodie drain sainity faster in were forms which makes him think about coming out of it which i love alot, though they would need to do something to the lunar perk to not make fully out optioned, maybe you turn into the were form on new moons instead? It would probably need more but i am not sure what would be effective.

 

Also i had an idea where Wolfgang's alignments also make him take more damage from the opposing side aswell, rather than just dealing more damage to them.

[NNOUS]

3 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

need to do something to the lunar perk to not make fully out optioned

it need items that can work with his downside in which render the perk optional, like voidcowl or potato goggle so player can choose to have a permanent perk, or just a temporary usage. for now its look kinda dry and its certainly a must go perk. if i draw a pull i bet 99% will go for lunar alignment not the shadow side

[Pet Rock]

Weakening Woodie's other wereforms when he picks a wereform's special ability might be interesting