Skill trees aren't inherently bad, but some people wish they encorperated downsides and balance.

[Jakepeng99]

12 minutes ago, NNOUS said:

it need items that can work with his downside in which render the perk optional, like voidcowl or potato goggle so player can choose to have a permanent perk, or just a temporary usage. for now its look kinda dry and its certainly a must go perk. if i draw a pull i bet 99% will go for lunar alignment not the shadow side

I normally choose shadow perk anyway because i like the excitment i get from the full moons. Moon perk is still more optimal.

9 minutes ago, Pet Rock said:

Weakening Woodie's other wereforms when he picks a wereform's special ability might be interesting

I don't think it should, it should only have some sort of downside to the were form you choose it for, because otherwise makes full moon transformations worse and the lunar perk more dominant, it doesn't really balance much and just makes it more annoying if you want to use the others. The moose is the only one i see needing some sort of flipside, the beaver is pretty balanced, and the goose needs some changes because it has 2 perks that do nothing practical (Wetness and dodge you probably wont be running into enemies as goose to make the point worth it)

[Jakepeng99]

7 hours ago, ALCRD said:

Wilson's torch range perk: Torches are a lot brighter - downside : Sets your character ablaze if held for too long xD

Wilson probably doesn't need any downsides with his perks, since it's his thing, and he isn't near overpowered or anything. Though still kinda funny.

[Jakepeng99]

On 7/11/2023 at 8:53 AM, Arcwell said:

In terms of raw living logs per second assuming you don't have more healing than you know what to do with, yeah, I'd agree with you.

That said, Wormwood still has an important niche over Woodie in that he doesn't require living logs to make living logs (each idol costs 2). This means in earlygame ruins rushing, Wormwood can craft ruins staves without needing to find a living tree / treeguard / lunar grotto first.

Oh yeah, he also can save space and can get it when he needs it without any setup.

[goblinball]

On 7/10/2023 at 5:12 PM, Scrimbles said:

If you are someone who enjoys new content but doesn't care about balance, is it not true that you might still enjoy skill trees even if they were balanced? If they included downsides?

No. I would not enjoy skill trees (or at least not as much) if they had downsides or if they were “balanced” according to your definition.

they’re supposed to be rewards. Raining on my Skill Tree Parade by adding downsides to a system which is supposed to reward and make the player stronger doesn’t make any sense and won’t make the skill trees any more fun.

[MondayNight]

"NO, ty!" as well.

From my understanding these "skill tree" perks are actually suggestions from community that weren't addressed by original re-balances - valid, QoL ones. Like Woodie not being brutally affected by Moonstorms, Wormwood receiving a late-game element related to Brightshade vines, or Wolfgang having the faulty idle-mechanic of Gym/Dumbbells corrected (any idle mechanic really, on account of bad design). Plus "fillers" probably aimed at aiding newbies/noobs/casuals (akin Woodie's Log Helmet, as day 1 armor). Also there is a global con to the Skill Tree system: the fact you can't benefit from its entirety at a time (without resetting, hence "intervals"), and have to chose branches.

[Cloakingsumo198]

So the idea is giving characters sub-classes?

[pyroisshy]

On 7/17/2023 at 5:06 PM, goblinball said:

No. I would not enjoy skill trees (or at least not as much) if they had downsides or if they were “balanced” according to your definition.

they’re supposed to be rewards.

this is a pretty big reward for typing in c_skip("200") ngl

[Dunte]

2 hours ago, pyroisshy said:

this is a pretty big reward for typing in c_skip("200") ngl

This.

This is the main problem with skill trees.

[-Variant]

2 hours ago, pyroisshy said:

this is a pretty big reward for typing in c_skip("200") ngl

I know people are going to use this as a defense, but I admit, even if you couldn't cheat them in, I still don't really think that surviving should be how you gain insight!

It's not fun, or interactive. Which I feel is a really big deal.
I want to interact with the world and feel like I'm being rewarded for doing things!!

Survival in of itself is rewarding in the sense that you're always making progress, and while you can compare the skilltrees to 'progress' I just don't see it fitting.

Not everything needs some big drawback or downside, but I can see it being fine for the more powerful perks in the case of the unlock methods staying as-is.
If it's changed up a bit, they might not even be required! Who knows, we'll see till the 27th.

[goblinball]

3 hours ago, pyroisshy said:

this is a pretty big reward for typing in c_skip("200") ngl

 

1 hour ago, Dunte said:

This.

This is the main problem with skill trees.

Wow, who would’ve thought that cheating in rewards is alot easier than obtaining them legit!!!

next thing you’re going to tell me is the game is too easy since you can just c_godmode and win

or that the enlightened crown needs a nerf since you can just cheat it in too

what’s your point? That console commands exist??

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, goblinball said:

 

Wow, who would’ve thought that cheating in rewards is alot easier than obtaining them legit!!!

next thing you’re going to tell me is the game is too easy since you can just c_godmode and win

or that the enlightened crown needs a nerf since you can just cheat it in too

what’s your point? That console commands exist??

You can go in another world, type c_skip("200") , and then join a public server where you don't have access to commands, but now have all of the insight. You can't do that with god mode, or the celestial crown.

[Beetrice]

Power creep can just be solved by forcing you to start with no insight. Controversially powerful boons such as weremoose mastery and treeguard idol crafting will just become a choice on whether or not you specialize in them over more practical skills. I think to balance such a thing out though, you should be able to get full insight points by at least the end of an in game year, as right now they're handed out under the pretext of them being permanent.

[Sacco]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:45 AM, -Variant said:

Realistically the small perks shouldn't get downsides. I could not imagine Wormwood's butterfly perk getting a downside! Unless it's like... some sort of immoral Butterfly that erases you from existence or something.

I ultimately only feel like the ones that really change up how you play should get some sort of tie-in change.
Woodie's Weremoose buffs are all upsides and essentially free to drag into any world from the get-go once you've got them. 
I could totally see Klei taking a page from another game's balancing, maybe try giving him super strong damage at the cost of having slightly less time to dish it out. Nothing too intrusive, stuff like that!

I don't think woodie's masteries should get downsides.

Afterall you are maxing out a wereform, so you shouldn't get a downside.

Werebeaver and weregoose have the disadvantages of losing wereness while performing the mastery, weremoose has to do a combo attack, sounds weird but it can be difficult sometimes to land the third hit against crowd of enemies, and even bosses, like dfly where you can normally Land 5 hits (you missed the 6th attack, the 136 damage punch) but if you are skilled enough you can get that 6th hit and deal a lot of damage.

So in general i don't think skill trees should get disadvantages, i just think they should e resetted every world and shouldn't be aquired by surviving days, but by killing bosses and other things.

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, Sacco said:

I don't think woodie's masteries should get downsides.

Afterall you are maxing out a wereform, so you shouldn't get a downside.

Werebeaver and weregoose have the disadvantages of losing wereness while performing the mastery, weremoose has to do a combo attack, sounds weird but it can be difficult sometimes to land the third hit against crowd of enemies, and even bosses, like dfly where you can normally Land 5 hits (you missed the 6th attack, the 136 damage punch) but if you are skilled enough you can get that 6th hit and deal a lot of damage.

So in general i don't think skill trees should get disadvantages, i just think they should e resetted every world and shouldn't be aquired by surviving days, but by killing bosses and other things.

Getting the 3rd punch is not really hard or needs skill. You gain knockback immunity the 2nd hit.

[Sacco]

4 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Getting the 3rd punch is not really hard or needs skill. You gain knockback immunity the 2nd hit.

But you sometimes have to decide to get the third hit and get damaged from the boss or don't get the combo attack and losing some dps but doing this gives you the opportunity to Dodge the incoming attack.

And even if it is not so difficult to land the 3rd hit what's the problem?

For example Wolfgang needs like two seconds to get double damage, but the new weremoose needs 4 skill points to unlock a single hit every three attacks which deals the damage of a Wolf with a dark sword, with the lower attack speed of the moose.

I like when Klei gives a character the ability to deal a lot of damage but you actually have to do something, like warly, where he can get up to 3 times damage but he needs to cook a specific food and needs everything to be wet.

The same with wormwood "bramble Specialist" where you Need to spend points which could have been spent on other skills.

There are other examples but i'm going to talk about every one of them.

So i don't think you should get some disadvantages for dealing a good amount of damage just because you are not Wolfgang, but that's my opinion.

[Jakepeng99]

5 hours ago, Sacco said:

But you sometimes have to decide to get the third hit and get damaged from the boss or don't get the combo attack and losing some dps but doing this gives you the opportunity to Dodge the incoming attack.

And even if it is not so difficult to land the 3rd hit what's the problem?

For example Wolfgang needs like two seconds to get double damage, but the new weremoose needs 4 skill points to unlock a single hit every three attacks which deals the damage of a Wolf with a dark sword, with the lower attack speed of the moose.

I like when Klei gives a character the ability to deal a lot of damage but you actually have to do something, like warly, where he can get up to 3 times damage but he needs to cook a specific food and needs everything to be wet.

The same with wormwood "bramble Specialist" where you Need to spend points which could have been spent on other skills.

There are other examples but i'm going to talk about every one of them.

So i don't think you should get some disadvantages for dealing a good amount of damage just because you are not Wolfgang, but that's my opinion.

It is 2 grass and 3 monster meat to pretty much have a thulicite suit, above darksword level damage, health regen, Moose charge with a few downsides. I don't think 4 skill points, 2 grass and 3 monster meat is really working for it. Not interacting with inventory is very notable but often you would not need to. I think it is fine even though it is op.

[Sacco]

10 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

It is 2 grass and 3 monster meat to pretty much have a thulicite suit, above darksword level damage, health regen, Moose charge with a few downsides. I don't think 4 skill points, 2 grass and 3 monster meat is really working for it. Not interacting with inventory is very notable but often you would not need to. I think it is fine even though it is op.

Let me repeat, Wolfgang can do even easier, having a much much higher dps.

Most boss fights can't be done with moose, due to the fact he can't interact with the inventory.

I tried killing all bosses with moose, and almost all the times i died was due to the fact i couldn't heal with food or using pan flutes/weather pains.

At least when i use the new weremoose i feel rewarded when i get the third or sixth consecutive hit, not like Wolfgang, who gains the ability of dealing tons of damage in just two seconds.

[kroban]

I kind of agree in that it would be "better" having some downsides to what is essentially a lot of buff. But at the same time, you kind of have to consider the fact that these skill trees are a thing now basically because things are going to get way harder. I would say having more downsides on some characters would end up making things more complicated, like it would be with Woodie and Wormwood.

Also, it kind of has an indirect downside already no? Like for example in Woodie's case, one could argue you can have a really buffed form BUT only one at a time. Same with Wormwood where you either go full "sandbox craft" perks or more of a combat-type perks.

I would say the only one that has no downside is Wolfgang, which is kind of dumb honestly considering how OP he already was. He should have had a downside like the mentioned above in like taking more damage or "being bigger", something like that.

IMO Woodie's skill tree is amazing, every other upcoming tree should follow his design rather than the other 3 designs of "1 good branch" Wilson's, 2 sided branch Wormwood's, or the "no hard choice" Wolfgang's

[pyroisshy]

1 hour ago, kroban said:

I would say the only one that has no downside is Wolfgang, which is kind of dumb honestly considering how OP he already was. He should have had a downside like the mentioned above in like taking more damage or "being bigger", something like that.

The dumbest thing is that Wolfgang had a well designed thematically fitting downside for like 1 patch during the rework beta and then they removed it and made him 10x less interesting. He used to lose mightiness when he took damage which was amazing and made wigfrid have a better niche compared to him. i don't even remember why they removed it but i don't think anyone was happier with that change

[chirsg]

On 7/11/2023 at 8:12 AM, Scrimbles said:

A lot of people are finding themselves either arguing against skill trees because they make the game easier, or arguing for skill trees because new content is fun.

I just wanted to point out that, as someone who made a thread that blew up about power creep in the game, I don't actually inherently hate the idea of skill trees, someone like me has a problem with how they are more objective buffs to the characters, and I'm someone who wishes they were made with balance in mind.

Instead of catering to people who only care about new content, why not cater to both sides by adding in some unique downsides to skills as well? As some sort of balance?

If you are someone who enjoys new content but doesn't care about balance, is it not true that you might still enjoy skill trees even if they were balanced? If they included downsides? We can have the best of both worlds here, the problem is that Klei is only focusing on one side of this issue, when all sides can be pleased. The people who like new content can get their new content, and the people who are concerned with balance can get balanced content.


As a minor example for what I might propose, what about some downsides that feed into a character specialization? Something like Woodie's lumberjack perk to make a new Wooden Helmet giving him bonus resistances for wearing wooden armor, but weakened resistances for other types of armor? That would incentive specializing into wooden equipment, while balancing him out by weakening some other options.

Perks like that are what make a character truly great, feeling like you have an amazing trade off for an equal downside are some of the most fun things to a person like me.

Wigfrid being a great hunter and fighter, but losing out on non meat foods makes sense, she is directly better at what she NEEDS to do to survive, while being unable to partake in areas shes not specialized towards. Wendy being weaker on her own pushes her to rely on Abigail, which feels great.

And who are two of the most popular characters? Exactly!

We can have balance, allowing both sides to get what they want. But people like me feel like that balance has been lost, and is no longer being considered.

I agree that something must change will skill trees, but not like this.

You're an author of the uncompromising mod and you've got a certain design philosophy as a result of the game perhaps not being hard enough for you. I'm not sure what it is that makes the game easy for you, but 4000 hours in for myself and doing all/most boss run within the first year is something I find excessively difficult.

If we're playing the same way, perhaps you're a God Gamer™ and I just need to get to your level of expertise. 

Bee queen is still a pest in the first year, and I don't believe that the dragonfly got any easier for wolfgang, IRONICALLY, for me, his rework that nerfed wolfgang a bit actually buffed his damage, so for me personally, the nerf was a buff, but I digress, 

Game is still relatively difficult.

 

What I can agree with is that none of the perk tree characters should ever get insight unlocked to the max on a new world.

For wolfgang as an example, his 200 damage against nightmare creatures with a dark sword right out of the gate is just a bit... It doesn't feel earned.

For the late late late late LATE game, sure, let wolfgang be basically an atomic bomb, he still is a pest to play day to day and if wolfgang and wilson were the only 2 characters you were able to play, I think people would choose wilson, just because you don't need to keep feeding him and making him lift weights for him to be as strong as possible. The downside for him is still there.

For woodie, I PROBABLY wouldn't make other gear weaker to incentivize him to use wooden armor, but even then, personally, it wouldn't affect me, as I just go moose for every combat interaction that isn't a raid boss. 

I think that the most reasonable adjustment of insight is to simply get points corresponding to in game character specialities.

From what I've seen, players who don't/won't do funky commands like c_skip(160) c_save() will never ever play the characters because they need to commit 160 days before they unlock everything, and if they get their choices that don't suit their playstyle, they won't bother at all. 

22 hours ago, Sacco said:

Let me repeat, Wolfgang can do even easier, having a much much higher dps.

Most boss fights can't be done with moose, due to the fact he can't interact with the inventory.

I tried killing all bosses with moose, and almost all the times i died was due to the fact i couldn't heal with food or using pan flutes/weather pains.

At least when i use the new weremoose i feel rewarded when i get the third or sixth consecutive hit, not like Wolfgang, who gains the ability of dealing tons of damage in just two seconds.

This says it all. If you see anyone say they solo dragonfly using moose, it typically goes "Eat 5 moose idols in one single fight."
That's 15 monster meat. 2 of those monster meats can be used to make 1 pierogi and 10 grass can be used to make 3 football helms and if you play it right, you can stand to only get struck 3-5 times in the fight by dragonfly. 

Twins as base woodie is a lot more managable too. Instead of damage reduction, you trade it in for the potential to do a no hitter.

 

 

[loopuleasa]

Skill trees are not designed to have downsides really.

Since you are locked in and it is hard to change them and they are designed to be level-ups instead of specializations.

 

I just hope the new content we'll get will be hard to warrant the power creep.

[Jakepeng99]

11 hours ago, pyroisshy said:

The dumbest thing is that Wolfgang had a well designed thematically fitting downside for like 1 patch during the rework beta and then they removed it and made him 10x less interesting. He used to lose mightiness when he took damage which was amazing and made wigfrid have a better niche compared to him. i don't even remember why they removed it but i don't think anyone was happier with that change

When they removed it, Wolfgang did not gain mightiness when he did damage so it was bad back then, though now i think it is good and should be added back. It synergises with the coaching perk too.

4 hours ago, chirsg said:

This says it all. If you see anyone say they solo dragonfly using moose, it typically goes "Eat 5 moose idols in one single fight."

No, you only need 1 idol, maybe 2.

4 hours ago, chirsg said:

Twins as base woodie is a lot more managable too. Instead of damage reduction, you trade it in for the potential to do a no hitter.

Moose is able to kill the minions way easier, and has higher dps, damage reduction and efficency. The weremoose is better than his base form 80% of the time.

[chirsg]

11 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

No, you only need 1 idol, maybe 2.

5 hours ago, chirsg said:

1 idol, maybe 2. that's all you need if dfly enrages and you die.

12 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Moose is able to kill the minions way easier, and has higher dps, damage reduction and efficency. The weremoose is better than his base form 80% of the time.

When it comes to twins, just a base form ANYONE is better than moose imo.

Even Wes with a crown, mag and dark sword is better than woodie moose even with the lower dps.

Movement is a lot more precious than damage reduction and DPS in the twins fight.

Don't even get me started on bee queen. Double moose is possible... but double almost any character is good against bee queen.

[Mike23Ua]

I enjoyed downsides in the original DS, they were equally as much of a part of playing as a character as upsides are- For example: Wendy needing to drop Abigail’s flower on the ground and kill something beside it to summon her, and then when Abby inevitably dies due to having stubborn AI.. (in DS) the flower falls in whatever dangerous place Abby died within, (right at Deerclops feet for example) & a Defenseless Wendy has to go bravely retrieve it & then to top all that off it takes 5 days for the flower to bloom back out and be useable again.

In Multiplayer however: originally.. Other players could steal the flower, and Wendy became a useless burden on the “Team” when Abby went on long cooldown mode.

Do I miss the old playstyle & downside? Of course I do… but they didn’t fit in with a Multiplayer Dont starve, so now- Wendy is all buffs & no nerfs.

Same can be said for Wolfgang who only got better.. Wormwood.. etc.

I think this is Klei’s intention: to make the characters less of a hassle to play as so that they don’t “Burden” other players.
 

For example: Wolfgang no longer needing to eat like an elephant so the fridges are always empty.

as a result: Downsides had to be significantly lessened or outright removed.

But in my opinion: if a characters downside is what makes the game challenging and fun, maybe the game itself could use some new content in old familiar areas?

That said: I equally wouldn’t be against an actual game mode that gave players harsher downsides..

But incorporating them into their skill trees is probably the wrong way to go about doing it.

[Nnumber3]

9 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I enjoyed downsides in the original DS, they were equally as much of a part of playing as a character as upsides are- For example: Wendy needing to drop Abigail’s flower on the ground and kill something beside it to summon her, and then when Abby inevitably dies due to having stubborn AI.. (in DS) the flower falls in whatever dangerous place Abby died within, (right at Deerclops feet for example) & a Defenseless Wendy has to go bravely retrieve it & then to top all that off it takes 5 days for the flower to bloom back out and be useable again.

In Multiplayer however: originally.. Other players could steal the flower, and Wendy became a useless burden on the “Team” when Abby went on long cooldown mode.

Do I miss the old playstyle & downside? Of course I do… but they didn’t fit in with a Multiplayer Dont starve, so now- Wendy is all buffs & no nerfs.

Same can be said for Wolfgang who only got better.. Wormwood.. etc.

I think this is Klei’s intention: to make the characters less of a hassle to play as so that they don’t “Burden” other players.
 

For example: Wolfgang no longer needing to eat like an elephant so the fridges are always empty.

as a result: Downsides had to be significantly lessened or outright removed.

But in my opinion: if a characters downside is what makes the game challenging and fun, maybe the game itself could use some new content in old familiar areas?

That said: I equally wouldn’t be against an actual game mode that gave players harsher downsides..

But incorporating them into their skill trees is probably the wrong way to go about doing it.

I enjoy downsides too, like Wendy is not ALL buffs, i see her downside as fighting nightmares are harder, and pretty much Wes against AOE things like bearger.

I personally enjoyed pre rework Wolfgang, as the dynamic attack multiplier makes it much more satisfying and rewarding for your doable damage then now, more consistent, but boring as he is Wilson but double damage. I don't even notice the extra hunger drain anymore. I don't see it with Wormwood though, its not like there's a skill that allows him health from food. the skills just improve what he already does or QOL. There is a game Mode that makes things harder: Lights Out. how are they a hassle to play with before, as wormwood conserves healing food for others to use, Wolfgang only drain more when mighty and with the extra damage kill things easier for food. I don't think incorporating it into skill trees as you said, won't work as they are meant to add QOL and improve what they do.