Does klei only look for power creep in combat?

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Baark0 said:

The problem with Woodie is that he's more or less a joke character, playing off of Canadian stereotypes. Woodie likely never will be anyone particularly interesting without a complete change in character. A lumberjack isn't that interesting to play as when you could instead play as a time bender, a shadow puppeteer, a half spider half boy, a soul stealing imp, etc.

Personally I've always found his wereform the most interesting part about him. Even if he got nothing new if Kiel just did a number tweak on his forms making them all useful I imagine he'd be a much better in the eyes of the community.

[Well-met]

On 7/1/2023 at 9:57 PM, Well-met said:

give woodie a giant transformation

I was actually serious with this. 

every wood gatherer constantly gets compared to bearger right? well then make woodie a bearger. Give him a ground-pounder or tree-stomper form that needs rifts content to craft or trigger.

[Antynomity]

3 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

Glass cutter isn't useless.

With that being said, that's the downside we pay for no power creep. Any new items end up being gimmicky with varying effectiveness. I hope the ocean content could be stronger, though. I'm glad Klei prefers to make them gimmicky than simply increasing damage and other values.

Sure thing, make them gimmicky but make the gimmicks good, and not something that can easily be ignored, even the new scythe, the gimmick is really cool, but it's so purposefully handicapped that it's useless in fights where you just can't land hits that often.

[Masked Koopa]

4 hours ago, Antynomity said:

If only that actually happened...

If I were to guess we'd probably get the conch after killing the CK with the pearl and only iridescent gems inserted because y'know, that's so fun and fair considering the state that CK is already in  

What if the item we get depends on the gems we put in?

3 hours ago, Baark0 said:

The problem with Woodie is that he's more or less a joke character, playing off of Canadian stereotypes. Woodie likely never will be anyone particularly interesting without a complete change in character. A lumberjack isn't that interesting to play as when you could instead play as a time bender, a shadow puppeteer, a half spider half boy, a soul stealing imp, etc.

The thing is that the same is true of the majority of characters, in terms of personality and thematics of their powers. Wigfrid is a joke character, she's just an actress. Wes is a joke character, he's a clown. Wickerbottom is just a bunch of librarian stereotypes and tropes. What Klei did in their animated shorts was provide a much deeper and more interesting charcterisation that puts their funny traits into a context that better explains them. This woodn't have been hard to do with Woodie, when you consider that he has a talking axe. The reason we see him as a pure joke character is because he's pretty much the only character to have an animated short that's just attempts at being funny. But in the end it didn't have to be this way.

[MagicalStorm]

10 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

What if the item we get depends on the gems we put in?

Not only "make your own boss fight" but also "make your own drops", very interesting thought

[Yuuko]

On 7/1/2023 at 4:45 AM, Capybara007 said:

The latests rhymes with play streams confirmed that wolfgang and wanda will be getting a character unique item/perk/something to boost them in the planar damage territory

why though? why can both of them stay relevant through  the whole game meanwhile woodie, maxwell or wurt get their chopping abilities overshadowed on the second autumn because of bearger?

i dont care about balance at all (but klei for some reason does, see the wolfgang rework) it just feels unfair that only wolfgang and wanda can scale their abilities from early game to late game where as most of the cast just gets overshadowed by lategame stuff

  Reveal hidden contents

i say most of the cast because im not gonna see how many characters are useful in lategame and how many are not

but basically, see the comparasion i did with bearger and woodie

just a small thing for klei devs to look into

as controversial as it sounds, i'd still rather that the game itself gave you the best option for a task

what i mean by this is, i dont want them to nerf bearger so now i must switch to woodie for getting wood, the same way i dont want to switch to wolfgang everytime im gonna fight a boss, the same way i dont find it fun currently to switch to winona to build catas

The irony is planar damage is specifically a nerf to high damage characters...  and rather than do away with it because it destroys character-fantasies they just layer another bandaid on top of the pile with "Wolfgang and Wanda can now get planar upgrades to restore their perks." like pike a lane Klei - if you really want to nerf these characters, just nerf them!  Don't do this convoluted surprise damage type to nerf them just to give it back a patch later...

[Frashaw27]

Yes, clearly the planar damage system is an afront to all things the characters stand for. It's obviously not an attempt at a system to add a divide between "end-game" and "post-game" content so that we aren't getting equipment that has so absurdly high numbers the scaling and balance of the previous content that came before is entirely dwarfed, because simply injecting numbers are the solution right, it never ends badly? It isn't an attempt to try to unpidgeon hole themselves when the armor they gave to use prior to the updates has damage resistances so high it already almost enirely negated most damage that wasn't coming from a freight train, no it's obviously all a grand conspiricy against Wanda and Wolfgang. No other characters are affected, mr. strong man and ms. timeline are clear the target for this covert attack, all of Webber's spiders, all of Wurt's Merms, all of Maxwell's Shadow Duelists, even Abigail all do the exact same damage as before, they are completely unhindered while Wolfgang and Wanda are being "covertly" targeted by Klei. This system, where Wolfgang still does the most damage even if the damage numbers aren't as high, is clearly an attempt to say "F**k You two specifcally", there's no greater plan or insider knowledge, it's all just in spite of those 2.

Look, I won't argue about how you feel about the update, but I'm a bit tired of seeing this argument that somehow Wolfgang and Wanda are being assassinated by these changes because their the most affected. I can't argue that Wolfgang isn't pulling the same numbers as he was before, but it's still true that he's still the strongest of the character when he's actively using the system to his advantage. There's plenty of actual, legitimate reasons as to why the system exists, and instead of pointing out anything that could be bad about it, like how it punishes you for not having the things to engage with it before hand by giving you no options or how the materials for these equipment are soft locked behind the always readily available and not out of the way Pick/Axe, people instead jump to the conclusion that it's some conspiracy that was meant to kill the viability of something like how some people thing banana bushes killed anything farms could produce. You have a right to your opinion, but I think it's a bit silly to assume the worst of mechanic that works in the exact same way for all other characters is some grand conspiracy because Klei was tired of all the Damage debates.

[Antynomity]

7 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

What if the item we get depends on the gems we put in?.

No, give us one good thing and be done, sure make so you can socket gems into the trident but don't force people to fight that terrible boss multiple times to get some variants... Especially when the current drops are horrible.

[Theukon-dos]

5 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

Yes, clearly the planar damage system is an afront to all things the characters stand for. It's obviously not an attempt at a system to add a divide between "end-game" and "post-game" content so that we aren't getting equipment that has so absurdly high numbers the scaling and balance of the previous content that came before is entirely dwarfed, because simply injecting numbers are the solution right, it never ends badly? It isn't an attempt to try to unpidgeon hole themselves when the armor they gave to use prior to the updates has damage resistances so high it already almost enirely negated most damage that wasn't coming from a freight train, no it's obviously all a grand conspiricy against Wanda and Wolfgang. No other characters are affected, mr. strong man and ms. timeline are clear the target for this covert attack, all of Webber's spiders, all of Wurt's Merms, all of Maxwell's Shadow Duelists, even Abigail all do the exact same damage as before, they are completely unhindered while Wolfgang and Wanda are being "covertly" targeted by Klei. This system, where Wolfgang still does the most damage even if the damage numbers aren't as high, is clearly an attempt to say "F**k You two specifcally", there's no greater plan or insider knowledge, it's all just in spite of those 2.

Look, I won't argue about how you feel about the update, but I'm a bit tired of seeing this argument that somehow Wolfgang and Wanda are being assassinated by these changes because their the most affected. I can't argue that Wolfgang isn't pulling the same numbers as he was before, but it's still true that he's still the strongest of the character when he's actively using the system to his advantage. There's plenty of actual, legitimate reasons as to why the system exists, and instead of pointing out anything that could be bad about it, like how it punishes you for not having the things to engage with it before hand by giving you no options or how the materials for these equipment are soft locked behind the always readily available and not out of the way Pick/Axe, people instead jump to the conclusion that it's some conspiracy that was meant to kill the viability of something like how some people thing banana bushes killed anything farms could produce. You have a right to your opinion, but I think it's a bit silly to assume the worst of mechanic that works in the exact same way for all other characters is some grand conspiracy because Klei was tired of all the Damage debates.

Well, ignoring how there aren't, in fact, any legitimate reasons for Planar Damage to exist (Save for maybe in the context of armor), I do agree that many, many more characters are effected by this change than just Wolfgang and Wanda. But at the same time, Planar Damage not being effected by modifiers does feel like a slight against them. Or atleast a slight against Wolfgang. I don't know how the Shadow Reaper interacts with Wanda's shadow affinity, but it's probably not well given the track record of things. But is there really any reason to make Planar Damage ignore modifiers other than to make Wolfgang worse? I mean I sure don't see anyone complaining about Wigfrid's damage being too high, do you? 

[Masked Koopa]

44 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

No, give us one good thing and be done, sure make so you can socket gems into the trident but don't force people to fight that terrible boss multiple times to get some variants... Especially when the current drops are horrible.

People generally complain that there's no reason to repeat the fight, and if there's any boss that should incentivise repeating, it's the one that can be customised by the player.

[Antynomity]

34 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

People generally complain that there's no reason to repeat the fight, and if there's any boss that should incentivise repeating, it's the one that can be customised by the player.

Rework the boss first, after that, sure thing, still the trident should not stay useless like it is right now.

[goatt]

On 7/1/2023 at 6:33 AM, Spino43 said:

And when you explore the whole ocean there's no reason to use goose ever again.

actually, cave. Moggle vision is especially useful in finding important locations in cave.

[cropo]

12 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

Yes, clearly the planar damage system is an afront to all things the characters stand for. It's obviously not an attempt at a system to add a divide between "end-game" and "post-game" content so that we aren't getting equipment that has so absurdly high numbers the scaling and balance of the previous content that came before is entirely dwarfed

 

 

Why not? If you've literally killed every boss, done every challenge, and have a megabase full of the most expensive items in the game because you've killed these bosses 20+ times why should we be worried about new content that requires the killing of the strongest bosses in the game bulldozing previous parts of it? How would it negatively impact a boss you can already kill with your hands tied behind your back?

 

It does have a lot of drawbacks as well, like needlessly complicating the game further. When I put on a log suit, I know how much damage it's going to absorb for me, I have to look at mathmatical formula to see how much these set bonuses do to specific weapons, and need to do twice the research to understand how much damage I stand to take if I get smacked by an enemy.

 

There are also other ways to introduce combat improvements without straight up increasing numbers and being done with it, the crown already has an effect that helps you in battle without just being another sword that does +10 of a Dark Sword and has a much more understandable effect. There are also non-combat effects that could be added, like the Mushlight and Mushcaps for post-game content.  The new armors and weapons look really cool don't get me wrong, but I think Planar is a net negative for the game, they could have done something different than complicating numbers, but what's done is done.

[Spino43]

5 hours ago, goatt said:

actually, cave. Moggle vision is especially useful in finding important locations in cave.

And once you explore the whole cave you will never use it again.

Just saying, you would be a fool to use goose once you have mapped everything.

[chirsg]

40 minutes ago, Spino43 said:

And once you explore the whole cave you will never use it again.

Just saying, you would be a fool to use goose once you have mapped everything.

Are you suggesting that after all the tasks are done with Woodie, he is obsolete? 

[Spino43]

4 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Are you suggesting that after all the tasks are done with Woodie, he is obsolete? 

Imo, yes. I never bother using him in late game where there are much better alternatives available.

Chopping? Maxwell or Bearger.

Moving around? Wx with speed circuit and cane, or beefalo, hell, just road with cane is better.

Fighting? Wigfrid, Wolfgang, Maxwell, Ruins gear, shadow gears, jellybeans,...

I use the Celestial Portal so I suppose you can ignore the character thing, but other points still stand. Not to mention you lose the whole hunger bar and big sanity loss after every transform.

And there's the whole moonstorm shenanigans, I am honestly surprised Klei never thought of Woodie when making the EoTS update.

He is a character that needs drastic changes and buffs to be even viable late game.

 

[Atkvin]

Opinions are opinions, always gotta preface that. But while it's objective Woodie is not in the best state, it is always amusing and bewildering to read hyperbole like "the devs HATE my favorite character". Like, chill.

But yeah, help Woodie out a little, yo. This story arc would be the best time to do it thematically, too. Maybe using shadow magic would allow Woodie to control and negate his curse, while lunar magic enhances it and gives him new powers for the lategame - seeing as his curse is tied to the moon.

(Do Lucy or beaver do any extra damage to the brightshades, btw? Not that it should matter since planar, but yknow, seeing as they are giant plants..)

Wereforms also need to be rehauled! Giving more control over when it ends, using hunger up as the transformation meter instead of draining to 0 every time, letting beaver eat lumber items to heal, etc.

[Picklesaurus]

On 7/2/2023 at 11:50 AM, chirsg said:

Klei hates Woodie so much it's unreal.
The absolute contempt the developers have for the character is just ridiculously unreal.

-The weremoose is something that serves a small combat niche that will often become obsolete after first spring.
-Sure, he is probably the most flexible against hounds, but there are means to kill hounds with a high rate of survivability after day 100
-All the contempt for Woodie was expressed in Maxwell's rework where even with woodie's contention being the best lumberjack in the game, Maxwell had all his shadow minion niches rolled into a single spell.
-More contempt for Woodie's combat niche was with maxwell's shadow fighters. They do almost everything well in most combat scenarios, JUST TO SPITE WEREMOOSE
-A big serving of spite and contempt after Wendy's rework, just blowing woodie's crowd control out of the water in every single way.
-weremoose's attrocious stunlock and the high probability of getting stunlocked due to his VERY low walk and attack speed
 

There is definitely more that woodie gets mogged by, but for now, I'll leave it at that. There is a HUMONGOUS deal of just straight out hatred klei harbours for woodie.
Whatever mistake you think you made with woodie's overall appeal, you haven't.

He deserves a lot more than what his performance dictates. 

How could I forget moonstorms and wickerbottom's books. Absolute CONTEMPT

If you don't see that there is an Anti-Woodie conspiracy, You haven't been paying attention.

I will join you in your conspiracy theory: The bug fix of Shadows some years ago - which was a good bugfix dont get me wrong - made early game exploration with goose quite deadly if you allow yourself to go insane, before the bugfix you could keep running all around the map even after getting insane:

It was a joy to early explore with goose, the only time this transformation shines is early game and to use it to the fullest early game you would run around chaining goose idols while insane with shadow creatures unloaded - which was easy to do with goose - so you didnt need to stop to get  food nor sanity up again until you either finished exploring or was too low on health due to idol eating damage to keep chain eating them, it costs a lot of early game time to gather sanity just to go back to goose form again. Now the game punishes you a lot for chain eating goose idols not only because you will deal a lot of damage to your hp, but because that damage you dealt to your hp + transformation animation back to woodie (you cant have armor equiped during it) + terror beak from low sanity + goose form unable to deal with shadows before transformating back = dead woodie. That bugfix also affected the other forms, but goose got hit the worst since he cant fight back before woodie gets locked into the transformation animation.

If Im not mistaken, there was also a bugfix to random seed droprate in the floor from birds, it was probably considering the wrong number of players for the number of seeds being dropped in the floor around them which was littering the world in rot in the long therm, before that bugfix you could easily get 40-60 seeds until the end of first autum , that bugfix is fine the thing is that seeds are used in the crafting of goose idol and they didnt compesate this change by reducing the number of seeds to craft the idol from 3 to 2 for example, now it is a pain to gather seeds if you are trying to get a lot of goose idols really early in first autum, before that it was a passive thing, now you have to actively wait for birds to drop them and get them before another one eats the seed - I noticed that especially when trying to rush moonquay island to turn into wonkey first autum. So yes, two indirect nerfs to goose.

Bugfixes and changes to the game are fine, what is not fine is doing them and not adjusting a character that was already mediocre to begin with that than gets significantly worse as a result.

[MadMatt]

1 hour ago, Atkvin said:

Do Lucy or beaver do any extra damage to the brightshades, btw?

Only the Werebeaver has a mechanic for doing extra damage against certain enemies, but no. Although it would be cool for them to be added to the list, I think calling them trees which is what the Werebeaver does extra damage against is a bit of a stretch imo.

[goatt]

5 hours ago, Spino43 said:

Just saying, you would be a fool to use goose once you have mapped everything.

In real pub game, I do use goose to travel across water instead of boating, for pearl quest, mainly, but also for monkey island tradings.

I usually collect all the seeds I can see and make goose idols with excess monster meat whenever I can. The frequency depends on how much excess food we have, because sometimes there are too many noobs / fridge thieves in base to be taken care of and I can't afford idols.

While other characters needs boat, Woodie use hunger and sanity as traveling expense instead with faster speed. I think that's great. But downside is that collecting seeds is labor work.

[Picklesaurus]

12 hours ago, Picklesaurus said:

I will join you in your conspiracy theory: The bug fix of Shadows some years ago - which was a good bugfix dont get me wrong - made early game exploration with goose quite deadly if you allow yourself to go insane, before the bugfix you could keep running all around the map even after getting insane:

It was a joy to early explore with goose, the only time this transformation shines is early game and to use it to the fullest early game you would run around chaining goose idols while insane with shadow creatures unloaded - which was easy to do with goose - so you didnt need to stop to get  food nor sanity up again until you either finished exploring or was too low on health due to idol eating damage to keep chain eating them, it costs a lot of early game time to gather sanity just to go back to goose form again. Now the game punishes you a lot for chain eating goose idols not only because you will deal a lot of damage to your hp, but because that damage you dealt to your hp + transformation animation back to woodie (you cant have armor equiped during it) + terror beak from low sanity + goose form unable to deal with shadows before transformating back = dead woodie. That bugfix also affected the other forms, but goose got hit the worst since he cant fight back before woodie gets locked into the transformation animation.

If Im not mistaken, there was also a bugfix to random seed droprate in the floor from birds, it was probably considering the wrong number of players for the number of seeds being dropped in the floor around them which was littering the world in rot in the long therm, before that bugfix you could easily get 40-60 seeds until the end of first autum , that bugfix is fine the thing is that seeds are used in the crafting of goose idol and they didnt compesate this change by reducing the number of seeds to craft the idol from 3 to 2 for example, now it is a pain to gather seeds if you are trying to get a lot of goose idols really early in first autum, before that it was a passive thing, now you have to actively wait for birds to drop them and get them before another one eats the seed - I noticed that especially when trying to rush moonquay island to turn into wonkey first autum. So yes, two indirect nerfs to goose.

Bugfixes and changes to the game are fine, what is not fine is doing them and not adjusting a character that was already mediocre to begin with that than gets significantly worse as a result.

I TAKE EVERYTHING BACK, KLEI LOVES WOODIE AND I WAS WRONG:



hehe, nice perks, im so happy

[Yuuko]

40 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

I TAKE EVERYTHING BACK, KLEI LOVES WOODIE AND WAS WRONG:



hehe, nice perks, im so happy

Yes, this is exactly what I was hoping they would do with the "choices."  Now we get a round of mini-refreshes, I'm quite pleased !

[chirsg]

3 hours ago, Picklesaurus said:

I TAKE EVERYTHING BACK, KLEI LOVES WOODIE AND WAS WRONG:



hehe, nice perks, im so happy

 

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Yes, this is exactly what I was hoping they would do with the "choices."  Now we get a round of mini-refreshes, I'm quite pleased !

What's all this?

[Yuuko]

Just now, chirsg said:

 

What's all this?

New beta branch started today.

[chirsg]

Its too early to say that there isn't an anti Woodie conspiracy. We'll say for sure after we see Maxwell's new skill tree... And wurt's...