I hate this Cave Beta

[Be2014]

I am not new to this game.  I have a few hundred hours playing.  
I am just going to say it.  I hate the new Cave update.

The late game is no longer enjoyable.  On the surface farming, grass, berries are infected with Brighshades.  Need to clean them often or make an area where they can spawn.  People have adapted to this.  The rift is no big deal now with the hotfixes so it does not spawn at the base.  

The Cave Update is unplayable.  
1st Acid rain  I play Wicker so now I always have a rain book to stop it.  The server needs to have a Wicker or the rain continues to fall.  What is the point of the rain other than to destroy.

2nd the Rift.  Again what is the point?  I get an umbrulla but in a battle when I need the protection from the rain can not use it.  New weapons are not worth it. Is fighting the rift worth it. Imo no.
  
3rd Nitre ponds.  Is there a lack of nitre?  If a person is living in the caves there is never lack of nitre.  Dig up the moles they have nitre..  Just another mechanic of the game not needed.

4th Random boulder drops.  How can I ban Klei as a griefer on my server?  If a player would stay in the base and have the Ant lion boulders drop and destroy the base: the player would be banned.   How can I ban Klei?  The random boulder drops destroy.  Was there a lack of rocks?  What is the purpose behind this random griefing to the base.  I hope there will be a server mod that will stop random boulder drops.  I will add it to the server.  Sad that I want a mod to stop a part of an update.

After many years of playing DST I no longer play.  What is the point of the endless server? What is the point of the mega base. I continue to play Forge and Starving Floor where the game is fun.

 

[Capybara007]

they are gonna let it be turned off with settings

[Be2014]

14 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

they are gonna let it be turned off with settings

Sad we are going to have to turn off an update.  I will turn them off on the servers I host.  

[Shosuko]

We haven't heard from Klei since the beta opened, I'm sure they'll tweak things with the next update.  They made a lot of changes to the BS stuff based on feedback.

Although I don't think there is a proper change to boulders dropping.  I know people have suggested "here is a fix for a problem we just added," but those should receive the same criticism as the tier 2 umbrella.  These systems are really basic, and fundamentally attack players from the wrong angles.  If they really want to make the game more challenging they need to start from the beginning and overhaul the game, this is not going to do it.  Sadly Klei does seem married to these changes so its more likely we'll get "here is a structure you can build that removes the update we added" which is pretty dumb imo.  Also it will probably cost 50 dreadstone and 100 fabric b/c of course it requires you grind the new material as if this were some MMO...

I'm not liking this new direction.  Fortunately they are all opt in, which means I will probably not do that.  The scythe is the only thing in these new updates that seems even the least bit appealing to me that isn't some cool jank that Klei is likely to patch out.

[Mysterious box]

39 minutes ago, Be2014 said:

What is the point of the rain other than to destroy.

I mean isn't that the point of seasonal threats to destroy/inconvenience us?

 

39 minutes ago, Be2014 said:

Nitre ponds.  Is there a lack of nitre?  If a person is living in the caves there is never lack of nitre.  Dig up the moles they have nitre..  Just another mechanic of the game not needed.

Back when Wilson was having his refresh I remember people asking for more sources of nitre I could be remembering wrong though.

 

39 minutes ago, Be2014 said:

Random boulder drops.  How can I ban Klei as a griefer on my server?  If a player would stay in the base and have the Ant lion boulders drop and destroy the base: the player would be banned.   How can I ban Klei?  The random boulder drops destroy.  Was there a lack of rocks?  What is the purpose behind this random griefing to the base.  I hope there will be a server mod that will stop random boulder drops.  I will add it to the server.  Sad that I want a mod to stop a part of an update.

Feel like a longer warning is needed but I don't really see a issue with it as a mechanic at least conceptually.

That being said I still wouldn't mind them implementing that umbrella change I mentioned a some days back.

[Shosuko]

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean isn't that the point of seasonal threats to destroy/inconvenience us?

 

I think the difference is that these are far more binary.

Its easy to forget since many of us have played a LOT of DST, communicate with each other on best strats, and know how to make a beeline for the gear we want, even skipping steps in between like using an axe until we get a ham bat rather than getting a spear mid way even if we could.  There are different levels of handling the various seasonal challenges we have.  Winter is cold.  We can make a fire pit, carry a thermal stone, make a winter hat or beef hat, burn a tree, build a furnace, carry a star caller staff, eat heating foods, etc.  For this new stuff its "here is t2 rain and a t2 umbrella."  Its too much lock + key rather than an experience and tools to discover in combatting that experience.

As much flack as DS/T gets for the "new user experience" tbh its much better then these updates.  Sure winter might kill me, but knowing its going to get cold from previous plays and seeing the different crafts available I can piece together a plan to generate and maintain warmth ahead of time.  I remember the first time I survived winter I felt pretty proud of myself, and I didn't check wikis or chat on the forums to do so.  Its like a horror story where the protag dies, but the foreshadowing is good so when you re-watch it you realize how they could have known.  This new stuff is the opposite - because all of the answers to the new things are 100% locked behind the new stuff, and there is really only 1 thing you can do about the threat, its extremely meta.  Without spoiling the content there isn't much way to know how these things work AND you have to go through the content to even find out about it.  Like a horror story where the hero dies in a fluke accident and the villain comes out of no where, and when you re-watch it there is no foreshadowing, like the writer was just making it up as they went along.

[abrocator]

1 hour ago, Capybara007 said:

they are gonna let it be turned off with settings

This truly is the You Can Turn It Off arc.

[Gashzer]

I think klei is making these updates assuming people are just starting a new world or if a new player finally gets dst these are natural endgame challenges.

The endgame content that the DST community is used to is just self-created content in the form of megabasing....

This update content is directed in creating more endgame survival challenges that appeal to people who dont get their fun out of megabasing (like me) or for newer players. Its a survival game first after all not a sandbox base builder...

Its nice of them to consider megabasers tho allowing you guys to turn it off.

[nimzowitsch10]

who wants to turn off new updates in settings? it's so lame. It's turning off vanilla game features which is something alot of people don't want to do. These rift updates are really on par with the disease update.

[Creatorofswamps]

29 minutes ago, nimzowitsch10 said:

who wants to turn off new updates in settings? it's so lame. It's turning off vanilla game features which is something alot of people don't want to do. These rift updates are really on par with the disease update.

You can just not give 5 Dreadstone to the shadow hand.

 

 

 

I am 100% sure that klei will be able to glue all the flaws.Therefore, do not worry in advance

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Without spoiling the content there isn't much way to know how these things work AND you have to go through the content to even find out about it.

But that's dst in a nutshell no? Yea you figured out how survive winter but just as many players didn't and still don't. You don't know monster waves are coming till they do, you don't know about the nightmare cycle mechanic till you experience them, and the list goes on some things have always been more obvious than others and lead to varying degrees of frustration from players.

Players don't know acid rain or boulders are coming but after they happen they know they need to avoid them somehow and both are less fatal lessons to the player than the examples above it's just a matter of adapting.

 

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

 and there is really only 1 thing you can do about the threat, its extremely meta.

As for this part I can't really say without waiting feels like we'll eventually get more tools along these lines to help with this much like the seasons of the past but I don't have a crystall ball that sees the future. At the same time it would be weird if this will be the end of end game survival items.

[Shosuko]

45 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

But that's dst in a nutshell no? Yea you figured out how survive winter but just as many players didn't and still don't. You don't know monster waves are coming till they do, you don't know about the nightmare cycle mechanic till you experience them, and the list goes on some things have always been more obvious than others and lead to varying degrees of frustration from players.

Players don't know acid rain or boulders are coming but after they happen they know they need to avoid them somehow and both are less fatal lessons to the player than the examples above it's just a matter of adapting.

 

As for this part I can't really say without waiting feels like we'll eventually get more tools along these lines to help with this much like the seasons of the past but I don't have a crystall ball that sees the future. At the same time it would be weird if this will be the end of end game survival items.

We can gather everything we need for winter before winter.  Everything we need for rain before rain.  etc

Did you read my post?

Once you hit winter, and know you're going to get cold - a very clearly communicated fact - you can easily look through your crafts and see what will keep you warm.

This content only requires you go through it first before you can find any way to counter it, which is why its described by many as "artificial difficulty."  Its artificial because you're forced to approach it without any way of handling it, and only once you've completed it are you given the options to make those tools.  For all of DST knowledge has been the empowering thing a player has and in this content they turn that off.  Knowing full well what you are getting into you cannot obtain planar defense or damage, or a tier 2 umbrella until you've cleared this content.  We go straight from nothing to eyebrella, no umbrella, no pretty parasol, no standing under trees, nothing because the content is designed in a very binary way.  Its unreal compared to the rest of the DST experience.

Its what I was saying before with the BS update.  This all comes out of left field.  Why aren't the darksword and glass cutter retrofitted to include some small amount of planar damage?  Why is night armor not retrofitted to include some amount of planar defense?  These are quite clearly lunar and shadow influenced tools, and would make a natural low tier step into these systems.  It would give us access to them long before we received this content making their addition seem more natural.  Klei really needs to look at these as less of a NG+ and more a natural evolution of the world.  We've had lunar and shadow influences in DST literally from day 1!  Retrofit the older content, build into this more naturally, and hey! maybe they won't have to both force people to use it while also being forced to add in safety switches to prevent it.  I mean seriously, not only do we have world settings specifically to disable these, but they also had to add in Wagstaff requiring the enlightened shard and Charlie receiving some dreadstone b/c of the overwhelming "oh fk no" response most of this is getting.  Those checks were not in their original plan, they were put there because many people just don't want this stuff in their worlds.  Not because these people don't want challenges, but because the challenges themselves are vapid, meta, and unnatural in the DST world.

There is good stuff in these updates.  The design of the BS plants and the shadow rift mobs are pretty cool.  Having a second eyebrella option is cool too.  The staff, bomb, and scythe are pretty cool additions.  Just destroying things randomly, forcing you to go through the stuff before you have any chance to prepare for it, and forcing everyone to use xyz gear is not good.  They can rework the way these "challenge" the player into things that are actually challenging and get a much better end game out of this.

[Mike23Ua]

I can’t play in betas, I’m on Xbox and can only read the horror stories of the PC experience. With that said I feel like Klei has been developing content for this game in all the wrong ways as of late. I will try to make this into a TL:DR..

first & most importantly: I don’t feel like they should EVER try to cram Uncompromising Mod features into a Mode that isn’t specifically dedicated for it (Such as a new world preset similar to lights out mode)

Secondly: And directly connected to the first point I don’t think it was a GOOD design decision to allow random players the ability to “Advance” the progress of the game- For example you get a speed runner in your world who rushes Lunar & Shadow Rifts into existing, they shouldn’t have that much control.

Its like Playing Dead Island or Gotham Knights and the other players are able to Advance your story so your dealing with new enemies & threats that otherwise- would only reach this point once you progressed far enough through your game to reach it.

Only the HOST should be allowed to advance the story, or players should need to “vote” to do something.. for example: Changing locations or starting a story mission in Dead Island requires all players to be in the red radius ring- or else the mission won’t ever start.

With DST: A single player can force massive world altering changes.

I am fine with Acid Rains & Boulders crashing from the heavens- I find it hilarious that people begged Klei to quote “Rework Caves” this update focuses entirely on caves.. and almost everyone hates it.

Just a huge example of be careful what you wish for I suppose.

[Dragonboooorn]

dont starve together players when the game actually becomes more dangereous and uncompromising: imma turn this update off 

[_zwb]

40 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I find it hilarious that people begged Klei to quote “Rework Caves” this update focuses entirely on caves.. and almost everyone hates it.

The boulders can literally destroy your entire base in seconds with such a short warning time. How's that "hilarious"?

A rework request is not a "please destroy my base" request. The lunar rifts already destroyed our farms on the surface, now we get kicked out of caves base... Hope you find it enjoyable and relaxing.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

We can gather everything we need for winter before winter.  Everything we need for rain before rain.  etc

Did you read my post?

Once you hit winter, and know you're going to get cold - a very clearly communicated fact - you can easily look through your crafts and see what will keep you warm.

But you won't know that former food sources you may have relied on will stop producing and you might not have thought to explore enough before hand to locate the things that would produce that insulation and even then this is ignoring the other aspects I brought up all of which are likely to lead to death before you reach the solution the first time.

6 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

This content only requires you go through it first before you can find any way to counter it, which is why its described by many as "artificial difficulty."  Its artificial because you're forced to approach it without any way of handling it, and only once you've completed it are you given the options to make those tools.  For all of DST knowledge has been the empowering thing a player has and in this content they turn that off.  Knowing full well what you are getting into you cannot obtain planar defense or damage, or a tier 2 umbrella until you've cleared this content.  We go straight from nothing to eyebrella, no umbrella, no pretty parasol, no standing under trees, nothing because the content is designed in a very binary way.  Its unreal compared to the rest of the DST experience.

This is just false dst has always been a game of trial and error and only more recently has it tried to clue the player in more on what can help them without external sources like the u.i. change or scrap book. 

Yea you don't have the answer beforehand this time but the items you earned and experiences leading up to this point give you more than enough to face it. And none of the threats added are deadly enough to kill you outright with proper preparation. This has been stated as an end game and I don't know what DST definition of it is but from my experience it usually means using the experience you've gain to face a more demanding challenge.

24 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I mean seriously, not only do we have world settings specifically to disable these, but they also had to add in Wagstaff requiring the enlightened shard and Charlie receiving some dreadstone b/c of the overwhelming "on fk no" response most of this is getting.  Those checks were not in their original plan, they were put there because many people just don't want this stuff in their worlds.  Not because these people don't want challenges, but because the challenges themselves are vapid, meta, and unnatural in the DST world.

I mean go back years ago would you say the character refreshes are natural to DST they came from player input but they weren't natural to the way dsts identity was neither was the new form of gardening through auto crop combos.

I would argue the ability to call deerclopes and mac tusk. The Beefalo Bell, and several other nice little quality of life improvements go against the original Spirit of dst as well. My long-winded point is the game has been evolving for a long time now in a way to give the player more power now it's evolving in a way that expects more of the player and I don't see that as a problem. And making changes to those plans based on player feedback is not something we should be shaming for because the way this comes off is like saying: " see they listen to us clearly they have no idea what they're doing"

Also why are you acting like the world settings can't turn off anything else. Also why does them giving us an option to not engage with the end game make it a oh they know they screwed up it would be like them giving the option to turn off Seasons nowadays and everyone suddenly saying: "haha that's because seasons are badly designed" the vast majority of the games casual player base don't want anything to do with the game beyond Autumn whether or not it's the case it feels like a rose tinted glasses  situation to me when people are trying to spin acts of kindness as incompetence.

[Ryusuta]

5 hours ago, Dragonboooorn said:

dont starve together players when the game actually becomes more dangereous and uncompromising: imma turn this update off 

It's not more dangerous, that's the thing. Acid Rain and Boulders aren't particularly dangerous. They're just a random, tedious, annoying drain on resources. They don't add anything new or fun to the game. They just make the current content require more maintenance.

[chirsg]

Bump for hate. I don't agree 3/4 of your reasons, but I am 100% with you none the less. Even if we disagree for the most part, we have a common enemy. Rifts are the enemy

[00petar00]

The issue with both lunar and shadow rifts is that they just add more tedium. I am not expecting a game to feel like a job.

Deadly brightshades that spawn in groups of 3 are the only enemy in the game that currently deals damage through armor, and they spawn endlessly that it really isn't any fun or worth dealing with them over a longer period of time.

The biggest problem with acid rain currently is that we only have one item that can be used effectively and it takes a hand slot. Another thing is that rain was already so punishing in caves that players decided to only go to ruins or kill bosses in caves during the autumn or summer. Acid rain doesn't seem like a good idea, as it will just make this even more prevelant, why even go to caves unless it is summer?

Boulders falling during every cave earthquake is another terrible addition to tedium, it's not even just the problem of it destroying your buildings but boulders that you have to clean up. Earthquakes were quite bad without boulders dropping too, mostly moleworms and there really is a need for a structure that can stop earthquakes from littering your base even before this update.

[Wonz]

3 stacked brightshades are so annoying to fight I wonder how it made through beta.  They just take forever and planar defense sucks on top of it. 
You kill one vine and you can stuff only few hits on 1000HP! brightshade because other vines are gonna destroy you if you don't walk away. And you can't just hit every vine until it's almost dead and then finish each one withone hit because they regenerate fully once they retreat that's absolutely horrible.

It takes tons of durability everytime they appear it makes me wish every weapon was hard to craft but didn't break. All the time hambat hambat hambat and hambat.  Not like there's any variety except annoying to craft weak whips that don't last long and other spear reskins but with bigger damage number slapped on them. 

[Dr. Safety]

2 hours ago, Wonz said:

3 stacked brightshades are so annoying to fight I wonder how it made through beta.  They just take forever and planar defense sucks on top of it. 
You kill one vine and you can stuff only few hits on 1000HP! brightshade because other vines are gonna destroy you if you don't walk away. And you can't just hit every vine until it's almost dead and then finish each one withone hit because they regenerate fully once they retreat that's absolutely horrible.

It takes tons of durability everytime they appear it makes me wish every weapon was hard to craft but didn't break. All the time hambat hambat hambat and hambat.  Not like there's any variety except annoying to craft weak whips that don't last long and other spear reskins but with bigger damage number slapped on them. 

I agree. These enemies would be interesting enough to deal with without the whole planar damage/defense system. With it, it's just annoying.

I love the direction that Klei is going with these Terraria-esque hardmode changes, making the world increase in difficultly as you progress further and further. However, I hate the way the whole planar damage implementation. 

[JazzyGames]

19 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Its a survival game first after all not a sandbox base builder...

Its nice of them to consider megabasers tho allowing you guys to turn it off.

Yes, how privileged we are to be able to turn off content.

I do not understand this impulse to create a hierarchy of playstyles. Seems much healthier for the game to try to accommodate every playstyle, especially considering how many of the +1k hour players do tend towards megabasing.

Boulders are currently a threat to builds and there's no way to prevent them. The last game mechanic we had like this was disease; everything else that threatens builds is preventable.

[dois raios]

8 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Yes, how privileged we are to be able to turn off content.

I do not understand this impulse to create a hierarchy of playstyles. Seems much healthier for the game to try to accommodate every playstyle, especially considering how many of the +1k hour players do tend towards megabasing.

Boulders are currently a threat to builds and there's no way to prevent them. The last game mechanic we had like this was disease; everything else that threatens builds is preventable.

If boulders have like a cap of X seconds to start falling after a earthquake start would solve the problem maybe?

[Gashzer]

18 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Yes, how privileged we are to be able to turn off content.

I do not understand this impulse to create a hierarchy of playstyles. Seems much healthier for the game to try to accommodate every playstyle, especially considering how many of the +1k hour players do tend towards megabasing.

Boulders are currently a threat to builds and there's no way to prevent them. The last game mechanic we had like this was disease; everything else that threatens builds is preventable.

For the game to become more challenging, there needs to be real threats to not only your character but to the bases we all hold so preciously. These last 2 updates have been targetting not only players but the bases they think they are safe in.

Otherwise Klei might as well stop updating DST and create a DST 2 instead because there is only so many new optional raid bosses you can include before you need to change up the formula. Klei is trying to change the formula here and now thankfully.

Klei has allowed you to turn this content on from day 1 if u dont want to kill af or CC. You have to willingly start the rifts ingame as well after killing them. And you can turn it off eventually if megabasing is your thing. You can even dupe the items without needing the rifts active.

We are at an impass here. Klei is trying to create more survival threats instead of raid bosses. Klei have been prioitizing keeping megabasers happy for all updates over the years. Its about time they stop making updates with megabasers at the top of this playstyle "hierarchy" and give updates to people who dont enjoy megabasing but enjoy the survival aspect of DST more.

[cybers2001]

44 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

We are at an impass here. Klei is trying to create more survival threats instead of raid bosses. Klei have been prioitizing keeping megabasers happy for all updates over the years. Its about time they stop making updates with megabasers at the top of this playstyle "hierarchy" and give updates to people who dont enjoy megabasing but enjoy the survival aspect of DST more.

Who are these mythical unicorn players that play for survival and willingly continue to live in their decaying world for many hours after beating every single boss and conquering all the content just so they can fight rifts over and over?