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Maxwell spawns with too much free stuff/power.


Ohan

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2 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

couple of individual's feedback is toxic,

looking at 85% of the beta testers i got to get known on this maxwell update showes this thinking, and i fell tired of trying to be and middle ground, after being pro maxwell buff, then just not wanting him nerfed anymore

2 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Do you want to revert back to live maxwell? Or solo maxwell? 

at this rate, both of those will be better,
because shadow prision isnt worth it anymore, shadow duellists are better, but shadow servants are worse...
but at least he would have 20 san

wurt is just objectically better but that is it i am tired, wont extend more because i am going off topic

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7 minutes ago, edulopes said:

looking at 85% of the beta testers i got to get known on this maxwell update showes this thinking, and i fell tired of trying to be and middle ground, after being pro maxwell buff, then just not wanting him nerfed anymore

You’re right about off topic but i really am going to have to call you out about this:

You have been the most vocal about generalizing people in a negative manner. Everyone who wants maxwell nerfed is just a bully in your eyes and you throw personal attacks like they’re candy, dont pretend to be the reasonable middle man because you are not. 
 

im not either but at least i dont pretend to be.

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10 minutes ago, edulopes said:

looking at 85% of the beta testers i got to get known on this maxwell update showes this thinking, and i fell tired of trying to be and middle ground, after being pro maxwell buff, then just not wanting him nerfed anymore

I might be among the most adamant anti-nerf advocates on this forum, I might also be a relatively but not a completely new member and a player, but I can tell you with confidence that making such a distinction, no matter what side you are on, discourages both playerbases from having constructive discussions here.

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2 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

anti-nerf advocates

best to buff it all and then buff bosses if they want

2 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

but I can tell you with confidence that making such a distinction, no matter what side you are on, discourages both playerbases from having constructive discussions here.

sorry, i am so tired of some people that it just wore me out

arguing for more than an week,and some people hear some of my ideas, most just think i was ludicrous,

5 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

dont pretend to be the reasonable middle man because you are not. 

i have some times that i am, mostly in the early day but really i am noticing that the more time it gets the more i worn out and the more i stress about some arguments, that were already discussed, and i discuss the people argument, give my reasoning and comparison, of why when and what, most do and yeah your argument isnt valid. because yes

i really just wanted max to be viable, but the thing is i read some people history and the hypocrisy of some is just umparaled, 
as i said, in the end it is all wanda

maxwell is just an old farmer

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9 minutes ago, edulopes said:

yeah your argument isnt valid

You were literally one of the people that guy quoted when he said “dont divide the forums” 

and i could go through and quote every time IN THIS THREAD where you generalized everyone you disagreed with, but you probably wouldn’t listen anyway 

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3 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

yeah your argument isnt valid

the problem is i give a reason at least,
their argument is just this one above

but 

4 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

and i could go through and quote every time IN THIS THREAD where you generalized everyone you disagreed with, but you probably wouldn’t listen anyway

the problem is both sides, at one time i tried to hear, but now i am tired, i just dont want more nerfs. 4 in a row leaved me insecure about maxwell future

10 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

and i could go through and quote every time IN THIS THREAD where you generalized everyone you disagreed with, but you probably wouldn’t listen anyway 

and the problem i can go and do this too 

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1 minute ago, edulopes said:

the problem is both sides, at one time i tried to hear, but now i am tired, i just dont want more nerfs. 4 in a row leaved me insecure about maxwell future

Okay, but whether or not you were “once reasonable” (which you werent i argued with you day one and you personally insulted me every time even back then) isnt relevant.

you are ACTIVELY not reasonable. So dont say “woe is me, i have been so reasonable and others are not”

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Just now, Copyafriend said:

personally insulted me every time even back then

that is an problem of being for diferente nations( language) from my translations i was being heated, but not insulting

sorry

2 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

isnt relevant.you are ACTIVELY not reasonable

last i will talk about this in this topic if you wanna continue better send an Private 

but yeah as i said both sides are not reasonable most of times, but i tried

 

4 minutes ago, edulopes said:

send an Private 

or start an topic, 

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Personally I enjoy characters who are overpowered, but their power feels earned and isn’t just given to them out of the starting gate.

Characters who make you feel like you earned it would be Wurt, Webber, Wolfgang (with best tier Dumbell), Wanda, Wickerbottom, Probably even Wendy too if you count summoning Abby waiting for her to reach full power, keeping Sisturn fueled, gathering potion ingredients from Pipspook mini game, Wigfrid (song scrolls) even WX78 has to play Pokémon Gotta catch ‘em all to get their powers.

But Maxwell.. well he’s just OP out the gate- and characters in THIS Category would be Willow who spawns with both a pre-crafted Bernie and fully fueled lighter, Wortox who spawns with souls already in hand.

Maxwells powers should’ve been tied to the magicians hat+codex and to create the hat wouldve require making a shadow manipulator or something..

However- one can also argue that because his minions perform better based on the gear equipped that technically he does have a bit of power creep as well.. just no where near on the same scale with Wicker/Wanda/Wurt etc..

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1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i think he should start with NF, at least few so players can guess that the codex is refilled with it 

Tbf what else could it be refilled with? The nightmare book is shockingly fueled with nightmare fuel, just like how a watering can is filled with water :P
 

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Personally I enjoy characters who are overpowered, but their power feels earned and isn’t just given to them out of the starting gate.

This is probably one of my biggest gripes with Maxwell and always has been. He's the most recent rework and despite recent ones being all about options and choices Maxwell seems very single-minded. He gets everything, only needs one thing to do everything, and that's it. I'm not gonna say if it's OP or not, I don't care anymore, but it's dull to have a character so focused on one item like nightmare fuel. It's what made pre-rework WX so bland and Maxwell does the same thing but with a bit more dapperness. I want the bar for creativity in character reworks to be set higher not lower :( 

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32 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

Tbf what else could it be refilled with? The nightmare book is shockingly fueled with nightmare fuel, just like how a watering can is filled with water

Additionally if you try to use it at 0% he says "it hungers for the fuel". Doesn't take much thinking to figure out that the shadow book takes the nightmare fuel dropped by shadows.

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I'm in the middle ground for this discussion. At the bare minimum, Maxwell should get the foundation for all of his perks, the Codex Umbra. Willow has her lighter, Wendy starts with Abigail, central gameplay defining items should usually be with the player from the start. All of his supplementary equipment like the hat and shadow equipment aren't necessary at the start and gaining them over time is satisfying and rewarding. I find the extra nightmare fuel is fine, it's not 100% necessary nor excessive. It's just a freebee that doesn't have that much impact on an overall playthrough. Webber has extra monster meat, Wickerbottom has some reeds, pretty much every character has some extra starting items that help a player in the early game. Think the nightmare fuel should be the last of people's concerns surrounding Maxwell. 

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8 hours ago, edulopes said:

and more, havent most people that asked for maxwell nerf not think about new players? this game isnt about only casual and veteran players you know? maxwell is already hard enough to those not prepared for him

myself an veteran would have some dificulty to knowing the tiers and damage if not by getting here day 1

Most people discuss nerf basically do not consider new players, for new players, maxwell is still not easy to play the role, so he will not become popular after the rework.

Many people just discuss maxwell's spells and abilities are too easy to use and powerful, but it takes a long time for maxwell to reach his top.

In the past, maxwell played the role of lumberjack in the team, He may not be good at fighting, he's better at hammering rocks and chopping wood.

With very little fuel, I was able to collect thousands of woods and stones, which is what I mostly do when I play maxwell, but challenging bosses is a problem for maxwell. Duelists are so vulnerable that I am fighting alone.

No one complained about these things before, now what?

klei should stop continuing to listen to these people, they will always have more to complain about, they won't even play maxwell, I don't even know what they are talking about.

Those who have been speaking in the forum, if you do not play maxwell, then you should not join the discussion, maxwell can not affect you anything, you just do not want to see maxwell become powerful.
If you continue to discuss nerf without giving positive advice, what do you want?

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3 minutes ago, Jorsef said:

-snip-

This talking point has been brought up many times and is as invalid as the first time it was brought up. Players who play the characters being changed don't dictate, never have dictated, and never will dictate the discussion on that character. The ONLY thing that makes players who play the character in question more listened to than others is their commitment to learning the character in and out which usually gives credence to their arguments over those who don't put in as much effort. Saying "I play the character more so listen to me instead!" is less effective than giving proper reasons and engaging in logical arguments for why your point is correct. If you're tired of people disagreeing with you and believe your points to have already been proven sufficiently enough, then move to the next point and don't get bogged down.

I'm not convinced by the main argument.

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Nightmare fuel is dirt cheap, it would make 0 difference if Maxwell didn't start out with it but for quality of life it feels better he does. It's also hard to tell if people make these claims because they actually think it's too powerful, or they are simply too invested in how others play and don't even have intentions to touch the character they talk about.

Either way the grumbling tends to just go away after each refresh sets in and people stop caring.

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2 hours ago, MadMatt said:

This talking point has been brought up many times and is as invalid as the first time it was brought up. Players who play the characters being changed don't dictate, never have dictated, and never will dictate the discussion on that character. The ONLY thing that makes players who play the character in question more listened to than others is their commitment to learning the character in and out which usually gives credence to their arguments over those who don't put in as much effort. Saying "I play the character more so listen to me instead!" is less effective than giving proper reasons and engaging in logical arguments for why your point is correct. If you're tired of people disagreeing with you and believe your points to have already been proven sufficiently enough, then move to the next point and don't get bogged down.

I'm not convinced by the main argument.

You need to watch more people play as maxwell. people discuss nerf just based on what they think. For the full duration of the game, maxwell is not OP than some characters. at least for now, he's as good at collecting as ever.But considering what's going on in combat, I'd go with wolfgang and wanda. People don't think that using spells to engage in combat is combat, they just think that hitting a boss with a hamstick is combat. What about those legions of mercenaries? What about rock throwers? What about tentacles? There are always many ways to engage in combat with the single goal of defeating the boss, and you should respect that, not find ways to nerf it.

All i want to say is that after playing maxwell for a year I think the current maxwell is not suitable for new players, and most players will not play him like before.

All I want is for maxwell to get better and popular, and it's not good that this community is stopping him and things aren't going in the right direction.

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2 hours ago, oCrapaCreeper said:

Nightmare fuel is dirt cheap, it would make 0 difference if Maxwell didn't start out with it but for quality of life it feels better he does. It's also hard to tell if people make these claims because they actually think it's too powerful, or they are simply too invested in how others play and don't even have intentions to touch the character they talk about.

Either way the grumbling tends to just go away after each refresh sets in and people stop caring.

What is up with every rework having a bunch of people who think that anyone who disagrees with them doesn't play the character? I want Maxwell to be more balanced explicitly because I love playing as him. Before the rework he was one of my most played characters and the rework has the foundation for him to become the most fun character in the game, but him being so overpowered and with practically no drawbacks or cost is really dragging the whole character down.

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I like how at this point in the beta the feedback is less feedback and more casual players vs meta gamers with personal attacks being spammed in all threads, newcomers who didn't read those threads joining arguments that now persist several threads instead of being localized to the thread the initial argument was in.

Creative feedback is being ignored, Creative buff or nerf ideas are being ignored in favor of whining to just buff or just nerf.

Changing nightmare fuel amount when spawning is basically pointless and would hardly stop how powerful early maxwell keeps seeming to people

Be honest if he spawned with a zero codex and no fuel would anyone honestly say he's weaker at all except to newbies who don't know what a nightmare fuel even is? Veteran players would just wormhole hop till crazy for nightmares or just ruins dive and be right into spell casting and summoning anyway

Maxwell is a new playstyle that's akin to some weird temp limted range rts gaming and the community overall keeps trying to pigeon hole him into "he's fast weaker wurt" or "how dare he be top 6 dps after beating fuelweaver" "he's jack of all trades and that's OP!"

The beta also updates so fast videos trying to showcase OP feats get quickly dated and now the community bases it's outrage on now dated info

We need calm rational feedback here and actual thought put into ideas not just QUICK DO SOMETHING HE'S TOO STRONG

OR QUICK DO SOMETHING HE'S TOO WEAK

The devs are also partially at fault for also being not so clear as to what THEY want maxwell to be. Is he supposed to do everything like this? If yes then tweaking costs or fuel usage should be tested but so far we haven't had any fuel or resource changes and they in fact keep making nightmare fuel even easier to get as maxwell.

Instead of yelling at each other we need the devs to respond with words of just what maxwell is supposed to even be before we can really attempt balancing

 

 

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13 hours ago, Cheggf said:

A 0% Codex Umbra and 4 nmf would be the most fun I think. You get to choose how you divide your starting resources. A 100% Umbra, a 25% Umbra and magician's top hat, etc.

Or craft 2nd 100% codex if Maxwell found 2 papyrus faster than extra nightmare fuel (swamp is sometimes generated close to the portal, or Wickerbottom could give Maxwell 2 papyrus from the start). It's a shame that outside of magician's top hat there is not much Maxwell can spend initial nightmare fuel to (not much unique ways, at least); one may be interested in crafting life giving amulet very early (if lucky with red gem from earthquake or from the grave), but right now one needs prestihatitator for that, and at this point it's no different from making it as Wilson.

That being said, I would like purple gem to return as his starting item.

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52 minutes ago, Joey9Baka said:

I like how at this point in the beta the feedback is less feedback and more casual players vs meta gamers with personal attacks being spammed in all threads, newcomers who didn't read those threads joining arguments that now persist several threads instead of being localized to the thread the initial argument was in.

Creative feedback is being ignored, Creative buff or nerf ideas are being ignored in favor of whining to just buff or just nerf.

Changing nightmare fuel amount when spawning is basically pointless and would hardly stop how powerful early maxwell keeps seeming to people

Be honest if he spawned with a zero codex and no fuel would anyone honestly say he's weaker at all except to newbies who don't know what a nightmare fuel even is? Veteran players would just wormhole hop till crazy for nightmares or just ruins dive and be right into spell casting and summoning anyway

Maxwell is a new playstyle that's akin to some weird temp limted range rts gaming and the community overall keeps trying to pigeon hole him into "he's fast weaker wurt" or "how dare he be top 6 dps after beating fuelweaver" "he's jack of all trades and that's OP!"

The beta also updates so fast videos trying to showcase OP feats get quickly dated and now the community bases it's outrage on now dated info

We need calm rational feedback here and actual thought put into ideas not just QUICK DO SOMETHING HE'S TOO STRONG

OR QUICK DO SOMETHING HE'S TOO WEAK

The devs are also partially at fault for also being not so clear as to what THEY want maxwell to be. Is he supposed to do everything like this? If yes then tweaking costs or fuel usage should be tested but so far we haven't had any fuel or resource changes and they in fact keep making nightmare fuel even easier to get as maxwell.

Instead of yelling at each other we need the devs to respond with words of just what maxwell is supposed to even be before we can really attempt balancing

 

 

Most people don't give creative advice and the community is full of nerf talk, all of which is a waste of time.

I hate that Klei can't get a handle on the situation. He really doesn't know what maxwell really needs, he just cares what people say.

Don't believe people who claim they've been playing maxwell for a long time. At least in my experience, maxwell is not called an OP character.

 

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15 hours ago, Ohan said:

Why cant wurt spawn with the materials for royal tapestry and 1 or 2 merm guard huts? 

Another serious question: why can't Wurt indeed start with materials for 1 craft merm hut or 1-2 tentacle spots? I think it would improve her gameplay and diversify very early game (although I myself wouldn't feel major difference because I don't play her, partially for this reason, but that's another topic), and it won't give her outright power (like starting with nightmare fuel does for Maxwell). Right now finding swamp and/or collecting initial few tentacle spots is just praying for luck mostly. If Wurt started with 1-2 tentacle spots, that would promote synergy with Wickerbottom as well (right now they compete in early and mid-game in too much to my taste cases).

14 hours ago, Dragonboooorn said:

Lore wise, Wigfrid should start with nothing but bathrobe on her!

Actually not, she had helmet and spear with her lorewise. Meat is there, but not for lore reasons: without extra meat on start she would have to start every world in the same way with exact same very early game. It's not hard to kill some spiders and frogs or hunt koalephant, but starting meat allows Wigfrid to rush caves (relevant in lights out) and even go straight to ruins, as well as do other stuff. When I play as Wigfrid I like to craft ham bat from initial meat or cook 1-2 meaty stews as my first crock pot food. It's nice to have a bit more options. Yes, it's tiny bit easier to start with 4 meat, but it helps in terms of gameplay much more than it hurts.

For that same reason Wanda starts with 3 time pieces, neither more, nor less: it allows her craft any clock without mandatory visit to ruins/archives, but if player wants more power (which player does), one has to go to mentioned places and obtain more. Still, there is a difference between, for example, doing ruins first and then crafting alarming clock and doing dragonfly first with alarming clock or backstep watch and then going to the ruins.

For Maxwell, as I mentioned in previous reply, I think starting with 0% codex, 4 nightmare fuel, but with purple gem would be much better than current state. Not because I want nerf or buff, but because it would diversify very early game: Maxwell could either recharge codex or craft magician's top hat practically out of the gate (well, after finding spiders and crafting science machine), he could rush shadow manipulator with much less impact of RNG (codex would help with fuel and living logs while also generating other useful supplies). If extra fuel he starts with stays, I would be indifferent to that as it's not really a problem to farm more as Maxwell, however, I still miss that purple gem and think that having both would be too much. If I were to choose, I'd rather have purple gem instead of 6 fuel at the start because it removes annoying in this case RNG and promotes player working towards power more (than having something initially, like fuel in this case). Even if it's not hard to kill some shadows to make up for this initial fuel difference, I would prefer to fight instead of receiving fuel right away.

13 hours ago, Qairon said:

There's arguments to be made about characters like Wendy not so much applying to these rules,, but she just dabbles in magic, more on the necromancy side honestly. And she does need to wait for Abigail to grow in power by staying alive at least.

To be fair Wendy needs to craft elixirs for boss fights, often multiple, like spectral cure-all + nightshade nostrum (Bee Queen), 7-9 spectral cure-alls (Ancient Fuelweaver), vigor mortis (Toadstool, Celestial Champion phase 1 and 2, shadow pieces (usage depends on composition and kill order)), as well as get all other necessary supplies. It's not tied to bosses as well, as there are other other scenarios, such as: small heal elixir in case military biome (ruins rush) appears to be big enough, small heal for dealing with spider-infested forest including dealing with spider queens, small heal or 2 spectral cure-alls in case frog rain, small heal in case clearing swamp from tentacles by letting Abi to take tentacle aggro instead of Wendy. And yes, Abigail needs a little bit of time to level up: this isn't much of a problem, but lvl 1 Abigail won't be able to perform things like tanking some mobs for Wendy to kill those mobs without kiting (tallbirds, tentacles, bishops), or at least she wouldn't be able to tank as much as lvl 3.

15 hours ago, Cheggf said:

I agree with you guys saying it doesn't matter whether or not he starts with nmf because it's so easy to get. Therefore, there are no downsides to making him not start with any. So let's remove it from his starting inventory. No reason not to, after all, since it doesn't let you kill AFW.

While I agree about changing starting items, your statement is double-edged sword (and I see that this is sarcasm, but it doesn't help to keep discussion healthy). If starting fuel doesn't matter and both sides agree, then this thread should not be a thing. I would prefer to not say something like this if you want any changes.

8 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i think he should start with NF, at least few so players can guess that the codex is refilled with it 

Staring with not full codex and some nightmare fuel would do better job to teach new players this than starting with full codex, isn't it?

Also this:

8 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Additionally if you try to use it at 0% he says "it hungers for the fuel"

Would help to achieve that goal as well.

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48 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Another serious question: why can't Wurt indeed start with materials for 1 craft merm hut or 1-2 tentacle spots? I think it would improve her gameplay and diversify very early game (although I myself wouldn't feel major difference because I don't play her, partially for this reason, but that's another topic), and it won't give her outright power (like starting with nightmare fuel does for Maxwell). Right now finding swamp and/or collecting initial few tentacle spots is just praying for luck mostly. If Wurt started with 1-2 tentacle spots, that would promote synergy with Wickerbottom as well (right now they compete in early and mid-game in too much to my taste cases).

Personally I would remove kelp from the royal tapestry and start her with the swamp revealed because while starting her with a merm hut or spots sounds good in theory in practice it's not very practical. Starting with a hut she can't place until she finds the swamp or craft turf would feel kind of weird and so would starting with spots since she can't make full use of them until much later. Wurts in a weird spot where even if you jump started her crafts spawning in they don't mean much on their own which is why I'd opt for the tapestry to have kelp removed instead it would make building a king far less time consuming and give her far more time to focus on using her powers to benefit herself and the team earlier on. On the other side of things it really doesn't make sense that Wurt doesn't know where the swamp is since it's assumed she lives there.

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