Maxwell spawns with too much free stuff/power.

[Cheggf]

I agree with you guys saying it doesn't matter whether or not he starts with nmf because it's so easy to get. Therefore, there are no downsides to making him not start with any. So let's remove it from his starting inventory. No reason not to, after all, since it doesn't let you kill AFW.

[edulopes]

1 minute ago, edulopes said:

looking "dumb

my biggest problem with this part is, those people know very well what they are asking and wanting, but they do as somone that dosent have the idea

Just now, Cheggf said:

I agree with you guys saying it doesn't matter whether or not he starts with nmf because it's so easy to get. Therefore, there are no downsides to making him not start with any. So let's remove it from his starting inventory. No reason not to, after all, since it doesn't let you kill AFW.

better remove wanda time pieces too
then wigfrid meat
then webber meat
woodie lucy- you just need to do an axe
wx jimmy is easy to do
wolfgang lift too
and the list goes on

[Gi-Go]

2 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Why does wurt not spawn with all the royal tapestry materials? What is she gonna do? Kill FW on day 1? 

No, this is a real question. What did you do using 6 nightmare fuel Maxwell has at the start of the game that made you realize it's too much power? What did you do with it?

[Ohan]

Just now, Gi-Go said:

No, this is a real question. What did you do using 6 nightmare fuel Maxwell has at the start of the game that made you realize it's too much power? What did you do with it?

I asked a real question too? Why cant wurt spawn with the materials for royal tapestry and 1 or 2 merm guard huts? 

[edulopes]

5 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I agree with you guys saying it doesn't matter whether or not he starts with nmf because it's so easy to get. Therefore, there are no downsides to making him not start with any. So let's remove it from his starting inventory. No reason not to, after all, since it doesn't let you kill AFW.

as i said those items exist for the new playerbase not suffer, but i think you didnt read any topic i wrote

Just now, Ohan said:

I asked a real question too? Why cant wurt spawn with the materials for royal tapestry and 1 or 2 merm guard huts? 

because merm guards are more worth than duellists?
and because wurt snowballs in to the infinite? 

and an new player dosent need it to survive? , basically by the start of the game all caracters will normally eat berries and veggies, making wurt an early game wilson

[Gi-Go]

3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I agree with you guys saying it doesn't matter whether or not he starts with nmf because it's so easy to get. Therefore, there are no downsides to making him not start with any. So let's remove it from his starting inventory. No reason not to, after all, since it doesn't let you kill AFW.

It won't matter for a fact. I've already done boss rushes as Maxwell and out of curiosity threw my starting nightmare fuel away at one point. 

This discussion isn't about that, it's about Maxwell haters who freak out over the silliest smallest things imaginable. 

[Cheggf]

1 minute ago, Gi-Go said:

It won't matter for a fact. I've already done boss rushes as Maxwell and out of curiosity threw my starting nightmare fuel away at one point.

Ok so 2 people think it would improve the game, 2 do not oppose the change, and 0 oppose the change. Looks like it should be implemented.

[edulopes]

1 minute ago, Gi-Go said:

It won't matter for a fact. I've already done boss rushes as Maxwell and out of curiosity threw my starting nightmare fuel away at one point. 

This discussion isn't about that, it's about Maxwell haters who freak out over the silliest smallest things imaginable. 

as i always says, give the option for those who needs or who wants the start, you can always fire the codex umbra and letting the fuel on the ground, your game your rules dont remove the things of other people this is just being hater

[Gi-Go]

2 minutes ago, Ohan said:

I asked a real question too? Why cant wurt spawn with the materials for royal tapestry and 1 or 2 merm guard huts? 

Because developed didn't made it so? Now your answer, please. 

[edulopes]

Just now, Cheggf said:

Ok so 2 people think it would improve the game, 2 do not oppose the change, and 0 oppose the change. Looks like it should be implemented.

do you think new players come to forum? like 2% of them may come the rest probably dosent know

stop thinking about only yourself, you have to look at the big picure, see my post ( the shadow damage part is mine) but the nerfs and downsides i merged ideas of other people i read, even if i disliked it, i tried to make an better maxwell for everyone

[Gi-Go]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Ok so 2 people think it would improve the game, 2 do not oppose the change, and 0 oppose the change. Looks like it should be implemented.

It's not a vote. And like I said, noone actually cares about losing starting fuel. It's just that the mere suggestion is an insult to Maxwell enjoyers. 

[Ohan]

Wurt starts with nothing for a reason,

wickerbottom only starts with 2 papyrus despite having ~20 books for a reason,

wolfgang starts with the worst dumbell for a reason, 

WX starts with 0 bio data for a reason, 

Maxwell spawns with 50 free spells and at 90% of total power… because…? 

I made this thread because maxwell’s day 1 power is unparalleled and very strange when compared to what has been the norm before him.

No other survivor of his power level has ever had this kind of start. 

Willow starts with all her power but thats not saying much considering how little she can do compared to maxwell, and she still doesnt start with a sewing kit. 
 

 

[Cheggf]

2 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

It's not a vote. And like I said, noone actually cares about losing starting fuel. It's just that the mere suggestion is an insult to Maxwell enjoyers. 

The insult to Maxwell enjoyers is that unless his duelists do 200 damage and the prison lasts 45 seconds he's unplayable.

[edulopes]

1 minute ago, Ohan said:

90% of total power… because…? 

i am an really bad math person but 20~60 is not 90%

the 6 fuels is for compensating the fact that his shadows arent forever anymore... for team helping, bot all trees are in clusters early game, and more pre beta maxwell could chop for days, weeks, and mine for the same amount, with only the starting fuel, Beta maxwell cant

[Cheggf]

14 minutes ago, edulopes said:

i am an really bad math person but 20~60 is not 90%

1/3 the duelist's power, all the servant's power, all the prison's power, all the snare's power, all the sanity's power, and all the Magician's Top Hat power because you guys are treating Wanda crafting a single watch with other resources as her starting with it totals Maxwell starting with 88.9% of his power.

Although honestly you could get that number slightly higher because you need to use a thurible for them to reach 60 damage so you could say their power maxes out at 52.

[00petar00]

How are people defending this when Maxwell is so strong in the current state, if they are fine with how it currently is Wolfgang should spawn with gembell and all other characters should have more items added.

Strong characters should start weaker and grow in power as they gather their items.

While you are at it let Wanda spawn with Alarming Clock too so it is easier for new players since they seem to like to use this as an excuse.

[Gi-Go]

6 minutes ago, Ohan said:

wolfgang starts with the worst dumbell for a reason, 

No other survivor of his power level has ever had this kind of start. 

Oh no! Wolfgang starts with the worst dumbbell in the game whatever will he do!?

 

[Dragonboooorn]

Why do we argue about starting items? 

Lore wise, Wigfrid should start with nothing but bathrobe on her!

[Cloakingsumo198]

Just make Maxwell spawn with an empty codex or near empty.

[00petar00]

6 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Oh no! Wolfgang starts with the worst dumbbell in the game whatever will he do!?

Very disingenuous to use that video here when it is seeded, who knows how many runs did he have to do on the same world. For you to do that reasonably in a randomly generated world, you'd need to kill AG and hope for that 25% Lazy Explorer drop, not to say that you can't kill BQ without it. There's also pan flute,marble and beehive that would never be located that fast.

Such a big argument over how strong Maxwell should be at the start yet everyone in this thread keeps saying how easy it is to get nightmare fuel now, doesn't really make much sense. 

[Seig Xeon]

I'll trade the nmf for 150 base hp. Really don't like how his frailness is undermined in the early game by this community.

[Cheggf]

1 minute ago, Seig Xeon said:

I'll trade the nmf for 150 base hp. Really don't like how his frailness is undermined in the early game by this community.

What killing you before you can find a few pieces of gold to be able to make football helmets? It's impossible to accidentally go insane early game so the only dangerous things are easily avoidable.

[Seig Xeon]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

What killing you before you can find a few pieces of gold to be able to make football helmets? It's impossible to accidentally go insane early game so the only dangerous things are easily avoidable.

Nothing kills me early game (generally). I bring up the HP trade due to me seeing how many people think the number is "irrelevant". If it is so irrelevant, just give me that in exchange for what OP wants. 

[Qairon]

4 hours ago, Ohan said:

6 starting fuel pre-refresh = 3/4,5 minions. Post-refresh = 30 minions/spells. + 20 from full codex.

This is just too much free stuff out of the gate. 

Shadow sneak and prison already make early fuel gathering easier than it ever was  for Max, the 6 starting fuel in addition to the codex which already contains 4 fuel is just so overkill and unlike any other starting load out of survivors with comparable power potential.

• 6 of the new duelists on day 1 with 20 dmg each is still waaaaaaaaaaaay better than what old max could ever do dmg wise.
• prison, sneak and gatherers are at their maximum potential right out of the gate. 

All of this adds up to a day 1 power level that just doesnt make sense.

Something has to give. 

The new Codex already contains 4 fuel and his spells have been made significantly cheaper to put it mildly AND sneak makes fuel gathering from rabbits a breeze, so the extra 6 fuel should just be removed in my opinion. 

That aside, i think it wouldve been way more interesting to unlock Shadow Sneak with prestihatitator and Shadow Prison with shadow manipulator instead of having them be available at their maximum potential straight out of the gate. But i realize thats unlikely to be changed at this point unfortunately. 

I hadn't thought of it before this angle and I think you're right too. Regardless of everyone's personal opinion, there's not really a magical character until now that started with all their powers straight out of the box. Wicker needs her library, Wanda needs her manipulator and extra time pieces (and walrus tusk... flashbacks to the Great Wanda Walrus Wars that happen every time more than one Wanda is in a server in winter).

There's arguments to be made about characters like Wendy not so much applying to these rules,, but she just dabbles in magic, more on the necromancy side honestly. And she does need to wait for Abigail to grow in power by staying alive at least. Woodie also technically has magic, but he's such a weird and undecipherable man that I won't bother defending him easily obtain his wereforms, they're fine.

I understand that Maxwell starts with Codex and that deserves attention to how he differs to other characters, but even in the comic someone linked, Maxwell sucks at using his shadow magic right out the gate, and even has pages of the book falling out. Needing to repair the book with a specific mechanic, like having to craft, find or write the pages for spells like Shadow Prison to be unlocked, could be interesting. Like, literally anything that actually adds some sense of progression (besides just raw damage from putting a piece of armor on, that just doesn't do it for me, man.)

Why does almost every other special character feel the stress of managing their time well, in a game where the inevitable march of time is your greatest enemy, except Max? The struggle to reach that potential is what has always made it fun for me. Now I know what has silently bothered me about this rework, that struggle is pretty much gone.

I think people are becoming far too comfortable with these powers in a game that has always marketed itself as trying to make you uncomfortable in an unforgiving world. We're becoming pretty complacent and I don't mind being the villain by saying it. 

[LDee]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

Oh no! Wolfgang starts with the worst dumbbell in the game whatever will he do!?

 

This is why I can't take you guys seriously.

Guille is probably one of the best players in the world, is using a seeded world, and still has to use an entire panflute, 2 marble suits, 4 football helmets to barely scrape by with a win.

Compare that with Maxwell who (in the hands of a decent player) can do the same thing without taking any damage, use any resources other than a few nightmare fuel (which maxwell spawns with already) and green caps/cactus flesh after day 5-6.   And then repeat the same strategy on multiple other raid bosses with the same success.

Anyone who honestly sits down and looks at how both characters stack up with each other would conclude that Maxwell simply outclasses Wolfgang (who is already one of the best characters) in pretty much every situation.