Maxwell spawns with too much free stuff/power.

[Pig Princess]

54 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Starting with a hut she can't place until she finds the swamp or craft turf

There is swamp turf in mosaic, mosaic is guaranteed biome spawning close to portal and all Wurt would need is to craft pitchfork. Also there is marsh turf near tentapillars in the caves, and there are always some of them in muddy biome (which can be found pretty quickly consistently).

Also Wurt only really needs 1 tile of marsh turf, since her unique structures don't need to remain on marsh turf once placed.

As for reeds, swamp is not the only source of them, especially for Wurt.

There is no need to reveal map for Wurt.

54 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Starting with a hut she can't place until she finds the swamp or craft turf would feel kind of weird and so would starting with spots since she can't make full use of them until much later.

You can use those resources for other crafts, much like players use boards and cut stone from pig houses for alchemy. And it's not "much later", especially if Wurt had some reeds or tentacle spots on the start. How do I explain that spending spots in the first half of autumn is actually quite quick? As for kelp, grass boat exists, and even regular wooden pancake is just 8 boards (counting think tank). It's not that expensive, one can craft it day 1.

As for synergy with Wickerbottom, "on tentacles" gives on average more spots than consumes, so it would be beneficial for Wurt to form team with Wickerbottom.

[Mike23Ua]

But guys, the thread isn’t about Wurt it’s about Maxwell having all or almost all of his powers unlocked from the get go.

For comparison sake: let’s compare Maxwell to Walter- In Order for Walter to gain access to certain parts of his craftables he needs to first craft a high enough tier crafting machine. Meaning some of his power is locked behind gameplay progress.

You can argue that getting better shadow gear fulfills this role, but- some of Maxwells actual abilities should’ve been locked behind needing higher tier gear.

For example: Pillars, Shadow Sneak, or even his minions new teleporting dash attacks could’ve all been locked behind progress.

Personally I would’ve loved Klei remove his ability to be Wickerbottom 2.0, and instead just give him his own unique abilities, maybe something similar to Mirage in Apex Legends, where he can throw down a Decoy to draw aggro & get free hits on enemies who are attacking it, or flee the area to find safety.

He shouldn’t need to be able to do everything he can do + everything Wickerbottom can do to fulfill his full potential.

But again: he needs to unlock HIS OWN Abilities through actual progress..

[ThymeSpirit]

15 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

It's just that the mere suggestion is an insult to Maxwell enjoyers. 

The more I read this forum, the more I realize how absolutely everything is an insult to Maxwell enjoyers, unless it makes him a god. The only conclusion one can make from it is that Maxwell should've been denied a rework.

[Gashzer]

I just hope they add different starting equipment to all characters.... every character should start with something, even if its a small thing... like wurt spawning with some fish and reeds and swamp turf would help get merms going without needing to find the swamp. And it would encourage new players of wurt to know what her playstyle needs are.

Edit: or she spawns with a precrafted merm house. Her description is all about building a merm kingdom, she needs to spawn with something to help that cause. Even webber spawns with spider eggs and meat to recruit them.

[skile]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Personally I would remove kelp from the royal tapestry and start her with the swamp revealed because while starting her with a merm hut or spots sounds good in theory in practice it's not very practical. Starting with a hut she can't place until she finds the swamp or craft turf would feel kind of weird and so would starting with spots since she can't make full use of them until much later. Wurts in a weird spot where even if you jump started her crafts spawning in they don't mean much on their own which is why I'd opt for the tapestry to have kelp removed instead it would make building a king far less time consuming and give her far more time to focus on using her powers to benefit herself and the team earlier on. On the other side of things it really doesn't make sense that Wurt doesn't know where the swamp is since it's assumed she lives there.

I wouldn't want them to remove kelp from the tapestry, it's not hard to get but it does make you consider going to sail early on, which I think is pretty cool.

honestly tapestry itself isn't really a problem, you can easily finish it by day 10-12 along with exploring the world and getting some other stuff, and it's a pretty fun little quest. the annoying part of Wurt that I'd like to be changed is spear costs of Loyal merm guard huts. is it too expensive? nah, not really, but it's just so tedious to have to craft 2 spears for each hut, since you also have to craft ropes for each one, and then you also need to constantly go back to grab more spears, because you can't fit em all in your inventory. if it was changed to at least 1 spear per hut it would be better imo.

Wurt knowing the location of the swamp is an interesting idea, not sure if it's necessary, but it would make sense.

[astroapyr]

8 hours ago, Joey9Baka said:

Changing nightmare fuel amount when spawning is basically pointless and would hardly stop how powerful early maxwell keeps seeming to people

Be honest if he spawned with a zero codex and no fuel would anyone honestly say he's weaker at all except to newbies who don't know what a nightmare fuel even is?

Yes, he'd be weaker because he couldn't spawn many duelists/servants as he can now from spawn, and you would have to work your way to gather more fuel which is what every other character has to do for progression on their skills and Maxwell has the means to farm it from rabbits at least. I like the idea some shared of starting with 0% Codex and some fuel, this would make the shadow sneak more relevant because in late game you''ll have already enough means to gather fuel.

[Gi-Go]

5 hours ago, ThymeSpirit said:

The more I read this forum, the more I realize how absolutely everything is an insult to Maxwell enjoyers, unless it makes him a god. The only conclusion one can make from it is that Maxwell should've been denied a rework.

This nerf suggestion in particular is a clear sabotage attempt from a Maxwell hater.

As someone who plays beta every day I simply cannot come up with any other conclusion. There is no was a reasonable person would play as Maxwell in his current state and say that "yup, 50 spells from the start is just too much". 

[Anthony_L3hr]

I think reducing the starting amount to 2 nmf be good, a little incentive to try and work towards an imbued magician's hat when newer players look through the survivor tab.

[Copyafriend]

5 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

This nerf suggestion in particular is a clear sabotage attempt from a Maxwell hater.

As someone who plays beta every day I simply cannot come up with any other conclusion. There is no was a reasonable person would play as Maxwell in his current state and say that "yup, 50 spells from the start is just too much". 

Man i played from the start and didnt have to look for any fuel until day 10, that felt like too much to me, and i feel pretty reasonable. (If argumentative)

I think the whole “maxwell hater” mentality needs to be dropped altogether, i want him to be harder so I (as in me myself) will enjoy him MORE. I already like him, i want to like him more, him being weaker = me liking him more. 
 

i like wormwood, wormwood has interesting downsides. If maxwell had little going for him in the start, thats a downside not an “attempt at sabatoge”. 
 

please for the sake of actual functional discussion, assume if we ask for nerfs, its for our own enjoyment, not everyone likes a power fantasy.

[Mike23Ua]

As the post above states: I actually enjoy playing Wolfgang NOW that he doesn’t feel so cheap to play, yes he’s powerful but if you want his best dumbells you gotta work for them.

Its not nerfing a character- it’s making them more interesting. 

Wickerbottom remained a Merlin level wizard, but she has to work to get to that power.

Wendy has to play fetch quests for Pipspook and potion ingredients to fully benefit Abigail.

We don’t want nerfs to Maxwell just to nerf him.. in fact back with the Wes rework I was one of the ones wanting him Buffed to be more useful, less useless, and overall more unique and fun.

But Maxwells power may be a bit too much for out the starting gate power, I suppose Klei wants him to feel like the former shadow king he once was.. but still from a gameplay perspective I really enjoy putting some effort into making my characters more powerful.

Its not a “Nerf” unless you just out right suck at meeting the requirements to obtain their power & In that case: I would understand why you’d want them to be so OP without putting any effort into progressively becoming more powerful.

I was actually hoping at some point Klei would add an update with a hidden machine (such as the forgotten Knowledges machine) which allowed our characters to unlock EVEN MORE Character perks.

Why? Because in a game advertised and sold to me as explore randomly generated worlds, uncover its secrets etc.. etc.. 

I should be enticed to explore that world and in the process unlock crazy new crafts/character perks.

I can start spitballing ideas too such as an Anti Werecurse power for Woodie to prevent full moon transformations, or better yet a Shape Shifters Itchy Idol that lets him actually do like he is seen doing in his animated short and switch between forms during a fight like Ben 10.

but my point is pretty simple: in a game where each update Klei adds to the game can benefit, or hinder the wacky cast of playable characters each in their own unique ways… we need to support that.

Wickerbottom has to go get a freaking iridescent Gem & Moon Moth wings to unlock the Lunar Grimore..

Though in the end, Klei knows what’s balanced and what’s not so they’ll adjust him as they feel the need in doing so.

I wouldn’t call it people wanting him nerf’d though, I’d say it’s more like we want that power to feel like we earned it.

[Stonetribe]

54 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

please for the sake of actual functional discussion, assume if we ask for nerfs, its for our own enjoyment, not everyone likes a power fantasy

Of all the discourse going around in the Maxwell rework, this is the thing that baffles me the most. I've seen a lot of "Maxwell hater" accusations, but like, why? It's not unheard of for people to have disdain for a fictional character, but in this case I can't remember seeing anyone giving an actual reason as to why so many people would supposedly have a personal grudge against Maxwell as opposed to just, you know, thinking his abilities needs to be toned down a bit. Last I checked, he's a pretty popular guy in the fandom. The Maxwell memes thread has been going strong for literal years!

[Gi-Go]

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

please for the sake of actual functional discussion, assume if we ask for nerfs, its for our own enjoyment, not everyone likes a power fantasy.

I will, if I'll see a nerf suggestion worth discussing. 

And this is not the case. 

[Copyafriend]

11 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I will, if I'll see a nerf suggestion worth discussing. 

And this is not the case. 

Mate, you cant make this point when you’ve been against every nerf ever suggested in this beta. Even when maxwell randomly had the tankiest minions in the entire game completely outclassing even abigail in toughness you argued against changing it.
 

personally i dont see why THIS nerf is so objectionable. Its about halfing his starting resources, its not like we’re saying that he shouldn’t get anything.

to be specific and direct (if you’re only going to respond to one thing, make it this)

why does removing nightmare fuel matter so much? He has 20 casts without it, and can easily obtain more. Would you have complained if it was changed to not be in his inventory from the start of the beta? Why or why not? 
 

personally it feels to me that you are only objecting because you feel like he has been “nerfed enough”. But previous nerfs or buffs shouldn’t have ANY relevance as to whether a further (fairly minor) change should be made.  
 

secondly it feels like you’re being defensive, which is strange to me, because why are you being defensive when its a minor, harmless change, that only brings him more in line with how other characters start with virtually nothing.

Finally: it honestly doesnt make the biggest difference to me at least whether he does or does not start with nmf, i think it makes sense, and would be nice, but if they chose not to, im not losing ANY sleep over it at all. But to me it feels like it would seriously bother you, even though you expressed earlier in the thread that it is now easy to gather nmf, and logically that means losing his starting fuel, just shouldn’t be a big deal because he can get more easily 

 

 

[dzzydzzy]

I almost feel silly contributing to the original talking point in a post that has become so bogged down in discourse that a dev probably won't even be reading at this point but....

I fully agree that it's odd that Maxwell has access to his whole perk fresh out the gate. I am not someone who plays Maxwell often if at all, so idk if my contributions should be weighed as much. But what I do know is that the characters I like to play as have a progression to them. Wurt is the most fun to me because of the potential she carries- and how much of that is base building related. Once you set up her foundations she becomes pretty unstoppable. Wicker too requires relentless harvesting of reeds before winter comes in order to use her abilities. Wanda is required to hunt down a resource no other character would care for in that quantity and only becomes OP once you prioritize your early shadow manip. Wormwood doesn't spawn with a seed pack-it full of seeds nor a compost wrap nor 2 free living logs.

To me, the way Maxwell becomes on an even playing field to other survivors is starting with a  0% charged Codex Umbra and either no nightmare fuel or 4. This way you are forced to prioritize gathering the vital blood that makes this character useful. Is it really that painful to players that you'd have to gather wood and rocks on day 1 in the normal way like any other character would have to? If the answer is no, then I don't see why this potential shouldn't be something you have to put a little effort into working towards. 

[Mysterious box]

12 minutes ago, dzzydzzy said:

I almost feel silly contributing to the original talking point in a post that has become so bogged down in discourse that a dev probably won't even be reading at this point but....

I fully agree that it's odd that Maxwell has access to his whole perk fresh out the gate. I am not someone who plays Maxwell often if at all, so idk if my contributions should be weighed as much. But what I do know is that the characters I like to play as have a progression to them. Wurt is the most fun to me because of the potential she carries- and how much of that is base building related. Once you set up her foundations she becomes pretty unstoppable. Wicker too requires relentless harvesting of reeds before winter comes in order to use her abilities. Wanda is required to hunt down a resource no other character would care for in that quantity and only becomes OP once you prioritize your early shadow manip. Wormwood doesn't spawn with a seed pack-it full of seeds nor a compost wrap nor 2 free living logs.

To me, the way Maxwell becomes on an even playing field to other survivors is starting with a  0% charged Codex Umbra and either no nightmare fuel or 4. This way you are forced to prioritize gathering the vital blood that makes this character useful. Is it really that painful to players that you'd have to gather wood and rocks on day 1 in the normal way like any other character would have to? If the answer is no, then I don't see why this potential shouldn't be something you have to put a little effort into working towards. 

Personally I feel like it would make more sense if he had to unlock his spells but I imagine mere suggestion would throw things into a unending uproar.

[dzzydzzy]

10 minutes ago, dzzydzzy said:

snip

Furthermore, I feel like the only reason current beta Maxwell starts with 6 nightmare fuel is an artifact of the codex's previous function of needing it for crafting recipes. Now the codex operates independently once fueled. So it's very odd it starts at 100% in addition to the 6 fuel.

[Gi-Go]

7 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Mate, you cant make this point when you’ve been against every nerf ever suggested in this beta. Even when maxwell randomly had the tankiest minions in the entire game completely outclassing even abigail in toughness you argued against changing it.

Not true, I'm okay with dragonfly cage fix. And I do think to this day prime-time Maxwell was the best and the most fun. Duelists didn't do aoe damage so why are you bringing up Abigail's relevance? She isn't designed to tank she is designed to kill hordes, and clones are and always were pretty bad at that.

The reason why I liked "overpowered" Maxwell so much is because shortly before his beta release I got a very strange urge to become a Wurt main. I never liked minion characters but for some strange reason I suddenly was super into it. Amazing and powerful merms that destroy anyone on my command and are also pretty good workers.

Just a small issue - Wurt sucks. Imagen hunting tentacles, gathering twigs/grass and chopping wood for hours and hours, and the end result is - "wow, my minions are playing the game for me". I think this is why she is the least played character. 

And then came reworked Maxy - exsactly what I wanted. He was a Wurt, but without grinding. But what is he now? Get special gear, stun enemies, immobalize them, summons minions and at the end of it all you still gonna have to bonk them with a hambat. Why even have extra steps at that point? Just pick a Wolfgang and be done with it. The more I play reworked Maxwell the less I want to even use his spells. It just feels like extra steps I'm doing just because I can. 

[Arcwell]

21 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

The reason why I liked "overpowered" Maxwell so much is because shortly before his beta release I got a very strange urge to become a Wurt main. I never liked minion characters but for some strange reason I suddenly was super into it. Amazing and powerful merms that destroy anyone on my command and are also pretty good workers.

Just a small issue - Wurt sucks. Imagen hunting tentacles, gathering twigs/grass and chopping wood for hours and hours, and the end result is - "wow, my minions are playing the game for me". I think this is why she is the least played character. 

And then came reworked Maxy - exsactly what I wanted. He was a Wurt, but without grinding. But what is he now? Get special gear, stun enemies, immobalize them, summons minions and at the end of it all you still gonna have to bonk them with a hambat. Why even have extra steps at that point? Just pick a Wolfgang and be done with it. The more I play reworked Maxwell the less I want to even use his spells. It just feels like extra steps I'm doing just because I can. 

I really don't understand this. To me it sounds like you don't like Wurt because merms do everything for you, but you also don't like Maxwell because duelists don't do everything for you.

For me the extra steps of casting and maintaining Maxwell's spells are exactly what makes him fun, creating a more dynamic combat experience than just: hold f, dodge, repeat. If you don't like using Maxwell's spells that's fine, it just means he might not be the character for you.

[Gi-Go]

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

Finally: it honestly doesnt make the biggest difference to me at least whether he does or does not start with nmf, i think it makes sense, and would be nice, but if they chose not to, im not losing ANY sleep over it at all. But to me it feels like it would seriously bother you, even though you expressed earlier in the thread that it is now easy to gather nmf, and logically that means losing his starting fuel, just shouldn’t be a big deal because he can get more easily 

The nerf itself dosen't bother me in the slightest. I'm bothered by the attitude of nerfing Maxwell for the sake of nerfing Maxwell. 

2 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

I really don't understand this. To me it sounds like you don't like Wurt because merms do everything for you, but you also don't like Maxwell because duelists don't do everything for you.

My bad. I used quotation marks because this is what people complained about, when Maxwell's duelists were good. That minions play for you. But it's exsactly the same for Wurt.

I don't share this opinion. I think minions killing enemies for you is amazing, because it's your choice to make. You can always use less and join in on the battle. After the nerf it's not a choice anymore. I have to join in on the fight. 

9 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

For me the extra steps of casting and maintaining Maxwell's spells are exactly what makes him fun, creating a more dynamic combat experience than just: hold f, dodge, repeat. If you don't like using Maxwell's spells that's fine, it just means he might not be the character for you.

True. Maxwell was the perfect character for my tastes and now he isn't. Oh well. 

[Copyafriend]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

The nerf itself dosen't bother me in the slightest. I'm bothered by the attitude of nerfing Maxwell for the sake of nerfing Maxwell. 

I have never once seen someone advocating to nerf maxwell for the sake of it.

 

I want this (barely) nerf for consistency, and to require some effort before freely using his abilities.

 

i like strong powers, when they have a windup period. shadow gear is good for the duelists, but you can still use the arguably strongest part of his kit day 1 pretty freely: the gatherers. 
 

being able to freely spam the gatherers makes me feel like i didnt have to do anything to gather a hundred wood casually. I like some effort in my powers, obviously this can go too far and end up being tedious but i dont think it would be.

[Gi-Go]

13 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

I have never once seen someone advocating to nerf maxwell for the sake of it.

 

I want this (barely) nerf for consistency, and to require some effort before freely using his abilities.

 

i like strong powers, when they have a windup period. shadow gear is good for the duelists, but you can still use the arguably strongest part of his kit day 1 pretty freely: the gatherers. 
 

being able to freely spam the gatherers makes me feel like i didnt have to do anything to gather a hundred wood casually. I like some effort in my powers, obviously this can go too far and end up being tedious but i dont think it would be.

Okay? You can fuel codex even if it's at 100% so why don't you just delete your starting fuel that way? Why do you want to delete everyone's fuel instead?

I don't get it =/ 

[dzzydzzy]

58 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Okay? You can fuel codex even if it's at 100% so why don't you just delete your starting fuel that way? Why do you want to delete everyone's fuel instead?

I don't get it =/ 

why don't you spawn in 6 nightmare fuel, I don't get it! why not a stack? why not dark sword and night armor for yourself too!

[Ohan]

6 hours ago, dzzydzzy said:

Furthermore, I feel like the only reason current beta Maxwell starts with 6 nightmare fuel is an artifact of the codex's previous function of needing it for crafting recipes. Now the codex operates independently once fueled. So it's very odd it starts at 100% in addition to the 6 fuel.

Exactlyyyyy 

6 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Personally I feel like it would make more sense if he had to unlock his spells but I imagine mere suggestion would throw things into a unending uproar.

Im still really surprised they didnt go about it this way. It wouldve made more sense and been more satisfying if u needed the magic stations to unlock sneak and prison.  It wouldve made for a more interesting character progression. 

6 hours ago, dzzydzzy said:

I almost feel silly contributing to the original talking point in a post that has become so bogged down in discourse that a dev probably won't even be reading at this point but....

i would hope theyd be used to it by now  every similar thread in this beta has met the same fate 

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

being able to freely spam the gatherers makes me feel like i didnt have to do anything to gather a hundred wood casually. I like some effort in my powers, obviously this can go too far and end up being tedious but i dont think it would be.

+1

[Gi-Go]

2 hours ago, dzzydzzy said:

why don't you spawn in 6 nightmare fuel, I don't get it! why not a stack? why not dark sword and night armor for yourself too!

So, I'm not gonna get an answer why you guys can't just waste your fuel at the start of the game instead of complaining how OP it is? 

I'm genuinely curious since noone is forcing you to use it. 

As for your question - console is cheating (obviously). So not really the same thing, eh?

[Pig Princess]

16 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

So, I'm not gonna get an answer why you guys can't just waste your fuel at the start of the game instead of complaining how OP it is? 

Because you can't just refuse to use armor and common healing ways as Wigfrid and argue that she is glass cannon. Because you can't just kill bosses with sea fishing rod as Wolfgang and pretend that he is weaker than Wes (with proper weapons). Because you can't just refuse to use any elixirs on Abigail and pretend that Wendy can't use Abigail's help in boss battles.