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Maxwell spawns with too much free stuff/power.


Ohan

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35 minutes ago, LDee said:

This is why I can't take you guys seriously.

Guille is probably one of the best players in the world, is using a seeded world, and still has to use an entire panflute, 2 marble suits, 4 football helmets to barely scrape by with a win.

Compare that with Maxwell who (in the hands of a decent player) can do the same thing without taking any damage, use any resources other than a few nightmare fuel (which maxwell spawns with already) and green caps/cactus flesh after day 5-6.   And then repeat the same strategy on multiple other raid bosses with the same success.

Anyone who honestly sits down and looks at how both characters stack up with each other would conclude that Maxwell simply outclasses Wolfgang (who is already one of the best characters) in pretty much every situation.

if that is the problem here is an decent player figthing againts all bosses using gear that an Medium Dst player would use in thoses stages, Bee queen wastes many resources, and this video was taken before the walls nerf... so you need knolowage yes. just look at video proof, and if i am wrong prove me in video by yourself please

https://youtu.be/RrWSZqOzGYs?t=1266

https://youtu.be/RrWSZqOzGYs?t=1592 ( here he says about comparing the figth with maxwell and other caracters)

 

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19 minutes ago, LDee said:

Compare that with Maxwell who (in the hands of a decent player) can do the same thing without taking any damage, use any resources other than a few nightmare fuel (which maxwell spawns with already) and green caps/cactus flesh after day 5-6.   And then repeat the same strategy on multiple other raid bosses with the same success.

Still waiting for an actual footage. 

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10 minutes ago, LDee said:

So if I provide you with footage of Maxwell beating Bee Queen with minimal resources, you will agree with my point correct?

Absolutely! Record a bee queen rush with the conditions you yourself listed above and I will 100% agree with you that Maxwell is the best character and is indeed overpowered. 

In case you already forgot - here they are: 0 damage, day 6, no other resources except for a "few" nightmare fuels and sanity foods are allowed. 

Good luck!  

 

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6 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Absolutely! Record a bee queen rush with the conditions you yourself listed above and I will 100% agree with you that Maxwell is the best character and is indeed overpowered. 

In case you already forgot - here they are: 0 damage, day 6, no other resources except for a "few" nightmare fuels and sanity foods are allowed. 

Good luck!  

 

maxwell to op

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6 hours ago, Ohan said:

 

It's much better than what the old Maxwell had, but HARD disagree on it being "too much free stuff". Even if it was too much free stuff, so what? It doesn't make survival any easier and it contributes towards an engaging and fun gameplay in the end. 6 free nightmare fuel isn't even going to affect your gameplay in the long run, so how exactly is starting with a good but acceptable amount of free stuff a bad thing? You still have to go through the minor inconvenience of going insane/digging up some graves/trapping rabbits/whatever you like doing to get early nightmare fuel if you want to use the starting fuel for your first tier 2 magic station, or for using the codex on future fights, or for using the codex for mass-gathering, or for any other thing that requires nightmare fuel. The starting items open up multiple (although arguably minor) possibilities, and this is a good thing.

By the way, I'm not saying I'm completely against the idea of starting with less nightmare fuel or with a Codex that is not fully charged, but I am rather opposed to the idea of wanting to nerf good stuff while in an actual gameplay, those good stuff don't make any huge differences. I seriously can't understand why having good starting items is a bad thing at all, and if anyone could enlighten me on this matter, I would really appreciate it.

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37 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

I seriously can't understand why having good starting items is a bad thing at all, and if anyone could enlighten me on this matter, I would really appreciate it.

Maxwell spawns out of the gate with 50 free spells and everything else his character can do other than a handful of silk and absolute top damage on the duelists.

This is unlike every other character who has as much power potential as Max, i really dont know how else to put this. Its very obvious. 

Go down the list of survivors, see what/how much they can do, when they can do it, what resources it takes for them to do it, and how much of that they have on day 1 and compare it to new maxwell. 

I already gave the following examples on page 2: wurt starts with nothing, wicker starts with only 2 papyrus (and science 1), WX 0 biodata or other module materials and Wanda needs marble and fuel and shadow manip to make whip and then further timepieces and walrus tusks for her other watches etc etc etc. 

nowhere in this thread have i said that max’ perks should be made weaker, the reduced duration for the cage and bosses behaving better when caged r already good changes. What the point of this thread is, is that maxwell gets too much of his great power too soon and for very little effort in my opinion.

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Agree. Maxwell just doesn't have anything to worry about for such a while, it's boring. I even dislike Shadow Sneak for this reason since it makes getting nightmare fuel without any risk no matter how small a breeze after your initial stockpile runs out. Maxwell needs a fun downside badly, 75 HP is something that you are cautious of for the first few days and the moment you get a football helmet it's just a minor resource sink. 

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I like the idea of not starting without any nightmare fuel/no fuel in codex but 4 fuel. I think its just better from a conceptual standpoint now that the codex itself holds 4 nightmare fuel. Its not some grand nerf, im not sure why people are whining so much but also saying “its so easy to farm tho” then go farm it?

Personally id like if he started with a nightmare amulet instead, you can farm nmf with it or boost your duelists. 

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3 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

I like the idea of not starting without any nightmare fuel/no fuel in codex but 4 fuel. I think its just better from a conceptual standpoint now that the codex itself holds 4 nightmare fuel. Its not some grand nerf, im not sure why people are whining so much but also saying “its so easy to farm tho” then go farm it?

Personally id like if he started with a nightmare amulet instead, you can farm nmf with it or boost your duelists. 

the problem is, why want to nerf every thing that is possible on maxwell, that is just strange

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It’s the never-ending conflict…

Every Beta the fun-havers congregate to celebrate the new possibilities and OPness

Their jollines is neither jealous nor petty; one character being OP does not deny another one being OP

But in the weeds lurk the dreaded, calloused, war-weary players: the tryharders

The fun-havers cry out in terror as the tryharders spread the nerf contagion

For the nerfs of the tryharders are neither jealous nor petty; one character getting nerfed last Beta does not preclude a nerf to the current reworked character

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Just now, edulopes said:

the problem is, why want to nerf every thing that is possible on maxwell, that is just strange

Bro its barely a nerf, i can gather 6 nmf within the first day of spawning. Its more it makes sense with how everyone else doesn’t typically spawn with mucj on the way of resources. 
 

stop being so defensive about maxwell, dont whine that its “a nerf” you dont need the 6 nmf and it no longer makes sense to start with so much now that his codex is actively holding 4 already, cut it down to 2 if you want it to match current maxwell.

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8 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Its very obvious.

I don't want to get petty and reply to every single line you wrote, but no it's not obvious. The downsides of other characters shouldn't dictate a single character's downsides.

I think you are overfocusing on the duelists and individual boss fights while ignoring the fact that the 50 free spells you get will only give you a headstart on the first two raid bosses you slay at most if you are using the starting fuel only and only for the combat spells. You still need to collect much more nightmare fuel if you want to utilize the Codex and, more importantly, if you want to play the rest of the game. 6 fuel is a good headstart, nothing too much, nothing too overpowered, just a good perk.

 

29 minutes ago, Ohan said:

nowhere in this thread have i said that max’ perks should be made weaker, the reduced duration for the cage and bosses behaving better when caged r already good changes. What the point of this thread is, is that maxwell gets too much of his great power too soon and for very little effort. 

Nowhere in my reply did I imply you wanting Maxwell's perks get weaker, but the reduced duration for caging the bosses means that you won't be able to engage in combat as much as you could before, so if anything, this encourages staying AFK during boss fights even more instead of actually fighting (Maxwell is the puppetmaster after all, so if the cage duration stays this way, I won't complain, but I won't play the character too). The point of my reply was that asking for a nerf on certain aspects of characters that are not overpowered is not productive for the gameplay experience. If you can't have fun with a good perk, then the problem is not with the perk, but rather with how you seek to utilize that perk. If you can have fun with that perk, then there is no problem. I will say it again, the starting resources are just a good headstart, nothing too much, nothing too overpowered, just a good perk. You might choose to use the 6 nightmare fuel for 50 free spells, but that won't be significant enough in the long run.

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3 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Bro its barely a nerf, i can gather 6 nmf within the first day of spawning. Its more it makes sense with how everyone else doesn’t typically spawn with mucj on the way of resources. 
 

stop being so defensive about maxwell, dont whine that its “a nerf” you dont need the 6 nmf and it no longer makes sense to start with so much now that his codex is actively holding 4 already, cut it down to 2 if you want it to match current maxwell.

and you guys never think about the new playersunknown.png

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4 minutes ago, abrocator said:

It’s the never-ending conflict…

Every Beta the fun-havers congregate to celebrate the new possibilities and OPness

Their jollines is neither jealous nor petty; one character being OP does not deny another one being OP

But in the weeds lurk the dreaded, calloused, war-weary players: the tryharders

The fun-havers cry out in terror as the tryharders spread the nerf contagion

For the nerfs of the tryharders are neither jealous nor petty; one character getting nerfed last Beta does not preclude a nerf to the current reworked character

A true Yin and Yang situation...

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12 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

6 fuel is a good headstart, nothing too much, nothing too overpowered, just a good perk.

This can be ur view on it and thats fine but its not just about the 6 fuel. 

he spawns with everything except magicians hat(and box for multiplayers) and top damage duelists.

Sneak and prison really ought to require magic stations to unlock. Its unlike any balance the game has seen to spawn with these kinds of abilities right out of the gate. 

Madmatt summarized above perfectly in a different way. Theres nothing to worry about for a very long while since u already spawn with most of what u need.

I wont continue repeating this point cuz its genuinely very plain and obvious imo how much of a departure new max is in this regard compared to other survivors with comparable power potential. 

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7 minutes ago, edulopes said:

veteran players never think about the new player base, or even casuals

 

You've got that backwards. Casual players never care about veteran players. They want all 18 characters to be equally easy to play and equally overpowered. They're not okay with a single character being balanced or difficult to play.

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Just now, edulopes said:

and you guys never think about the new playersunknown.png

“You guys”

 

yeesh way to separate people who prefer weaker characters out like we’re a weirdo part of the player base.

 

and appealing that “some players are new” isn’t constructive to the current discussion. Yeah some players are new. Some players have moderate experience too. Some are extremely experienced.
 

Whats your point? You shouldn’t cater JUST towards newer players, nor towards just experienced players. Its a mix. Maxwell isnt a newbie friendly character, so its kind of odd to argue that he needs to be changed to cater towards newer players suddenly. Because it wouldn’t work. Unless you remove his “75 max health” downside he will always be intimidating for new players to try. 
 

finally and most importantly: you didn’t address at all: why i said i liked the change.

I said it makes sense because most characters dont start with much. Plus i also mentioned that maxwell actually has 4 more nightmare fuel than what he currently starts with if you count the fuel in the codex. 
 

its not much of a nerf: because nightmare fuel is easily gathered.

it makes sense: because no one starts with much.

And personally: i prefer needing to work my way up to being able to use powers to their full extent.

the shadow gear is great for this, but not having any nightmare fuel would be an extremely early game version of this: either gather more fuel or go easy on the spellcasting. 

address those, stop complaining that i want “nerfs” its not productive to a discussion.

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Just now, Copyafriend said:

Where?

just go back at the pages , first one you will find the better part

as i said for me this wont change a thing, maxwell isnt an early game worth caracter, best to start with wanda get all max gear than change to him, for me at least, i am really conrcened with those that are starting to play him, because his learning curve is harsh for me, but as i said in the main topic

 

"if there's going to be a rework that makes maxwell more obsolete than he already was, it's better not to have done it" now that his prisions dont make him as a worthwile early caracter is for the best i use the decent ones then changing to him just because i like him

11 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

You guys”

and being sincere, wasnt the intention to be locked to specially you, but for some people that in my eyes are asking to dry maxwell up

sorry if looked like

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Just now, edulopes said:

veteran players never think about the new player base, or even casuals

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

You've got that backwards. Casual players never care about veteran players.

I don't care what side you guys are saying this from. Generalising different kinds of playerbases based on a couple of individual's feedback is toxic, and saying such stuff tells a lot more about how you guys choose to interpret certain situations instead of what the majority of those playerbases actually think. Please at least have the decency to reply to an individual and tell them that they have bad ideas instead of generalising others from your own perspective and popularizing this mentality.

 

14 minutes ago, Ohan said:

he spawns with everything except magicians hat(and box for multiplayers) and top damage duelists.

I would say this is a good thing that more characters need. It provides a solid start and a fun gamelay along with a progression at the same time. I understand you not wanting to go on with this discussion since we are kind of on the complete opposites on this matter and we both have already made our points, so I won't neither.

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6 hours ago, edulopes said:

Because for me that would make 0 diference, but this isnt a bit ridiculous?

Thid is what you first said? 

6 hours ago, edulopes said:

the end they remove the shadow equipment already+ removed his 20 san from his "starting kit" to mere nigthmare fuel on DST

6 hours ago, edulopes said:

maxwell use it indefinitelly for serval days, until winter maybie

Then you moved on to say he’s weaker than solo because he doesn’t start with shadow armor/darksword, when those were dropped in favor of the permanent summons that you’re bemoaning the loss of.

6 hours ago, edulopes said:

gatherer Beta maxwell is very hindered compared to live maxwell

And then you said something just flat out silly. Beta maxwell is a MUCH better gatherer than live maxwell, his minions are back to being multipurpose and they can do more tasks than ever. And his combat shadows are actually… good fighters???

Maxwell is far and beyond stronger than ever summons wise, plus he has spells now.

 

how is any of this related to him starting with less nightmare fuel? Do you want to revert back to live maxwell? Or solo maxwell? 
 

or do you just think that

6 hours ago, edulopes said:

dont need to look every little detail on the poor maxwell to nerf it
it is looking like personal at this point

We really just dont like maxwell for whatever reason apparently.

 

The nightmare fuel being lost is for consistency. He gets his character item, and preferably little else. woodie gets lucy, warly gets his crockpot and a LITTLE food to help with his (diet) downside, wigfrid gets her armor and weapons, and a little food to help with her (diet) downside.  Webber starts with a spider egg and a little food for body guards to help with his (FACTION) downside

maxwell gets his codex umbra. He already gets 20 casts with the thing which is plenty to help with his downside in the early days.

 

its consistency, its not about “f maxwell i wanna nerf him”

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