Maxwell spawns with too much free stuff/power.

[Ohan]

14 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Discussion isn't about whether or not Maxwell should have progression.

You need to reread the original post and title of the thread uve been spamming. 

15 hours ago, Dr. Safety said:

The argument people are making is that no other character (with semi complex mechanics) has what is essentially their entire kit right out of spawn. WX-78 needs to get circuits, Warly has to farm, Wendy has to make potions, Wicker has to make all her books, Wanda has to go to the ruins to get more time pieces, etc. The only progression Maxwell has is giving minor damage buffs to his duelists, and making the top hat. Everything else can be made (and spammed) before Maxwell even picks up his first twig. Removing his ability to spam powerful spells right out of spawn does not make Maxwell less powerful of a character, it makes him have to actually work to get to that point.

This isn't nerfing Maxwell "for the sake of nerfing Maxwell", it's making him consistent with the rest of the characters.

Bingo

[Gi-Go]

36 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't think you even understand what character progression means when all these characters you mentioned have a meaningful progression while Maxwell's is minimal.

I don't see how dumbbells are meaningful progression but shadow equipment isn't. 

43 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Why can't we discuss here if spells should be available at start or not? This ties into whether he should keep 6 nightmare fuel or not as there would be better arguments for it if he had to work to get access to his spells and it really isn't too late to lock some spells behind shadow manipulator or something else.

Why bring up something that dosen't exist and never will as an argument? Spells behind crafting stations are probably not gonna happen, op said it himself. Personally, I don't have a doubt in my mind.

46 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't really comprehend how you can still keep that stance for so long when literally majority of the people disagree with you.

Who said that majority disagrees with me? Majority dosen't care to continue this discussion that's all there is to it.

And also, I'm not gonna get overwhelmed from majority's disapproval if their arguments are bad/none. 

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

You literally said yourself how getting nightmare fuel is easy and it wouldn't even be a problem so while majority is for its removal you are still here discussing about keeping it for whatever reason? If you don't have an issue with it and other people do, i'd assume you wouldn't be so persistent in this thread to keep it as it is.

I do have issue with it. A few issues actually. 

Suggestion is based on a false idea that Maxwell is overpowered. But he isn't. 

Suggestion has zero gameplay influence. Maxwell has 5 character-special nightmare fuel farm methods. 

Suggestion has awful arguments for why it should be implemented. Yours for example. You are just saying that majority want it (false btw). And if majority wants something then it should be implemented? 

[00petar00]

27 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Why bring up something that dosen't exist and never will as an argument? Spells behind crafting stations are probably not gonna happen, op said it himself. Personally, I don't have a doubt in my mind.

It can exist, the only reason it is probably set in stone is because we are this far into the beta.

27 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Who said that majority disagrees with me? Majority dosen't care to continue this discussion that's all there is to it.

And also, I'm not gonna get overwhelmed from majority's disapproval if their arguments are bad/none. 

There has been many valid reasons as to why it should be removed. He starts with codex at 100% while before he needed nightmare fuel for his crafts, how is this not a valid reason?

27 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I do have issue with it. A few issues actually. 

Suggestion is based on a false idea that Maxwell is overpowered. But he isn't. 

Suggestion has zero gameplay influence. Maxwell has 5 character-special nightmare fuel farm methods. 

Suggestion has awful arguments for why it should be implemented. Yours for example. You are just saying that majority want it (false btw). And if majority wants something then it should be implemented? 

Something doesn't need to be overpowered to be changed, this doesn't make Maxwell weaker in the long run, he just wouldn't be able to spam spells as much at the start and there would be somewhat of a progression curve that you would notice, progression for a lot of characters doesn't take too long and players get proficient at it over time but it always exists.

I am not really saying that you should agree with what majority would want but every time that is the case i question myself and think in depth about every valid reason they gave me so that i can decide if i still believe i am right or not while to me it seemed like you glossed over everyone's opinion that was for the removal of nightmare fuel.

I still haven't noticed you present any good reasons as to why it should stay the same as it doesn't bring anything to Maxwell if he keeps nightmare fuel but just draws from him as a lot of people want to see some change in the first few days or season on how far they have come and it is quite enjoyable when you start settling in and getting to a point where your character is stronger as a result of your gathering/crafting.

Instead to me it seems like you argued better against your own opinion as you said how fast he can farm nightmare fuel and since you said that it has zero gameplay influence if starting nightmare fuel is removed, this just seems like you are here just to argue against any "nerf" without a reason.

[Gi-Go]

10 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Something

 I need to ask you something important before continuing this discussion. Have you ever tried playing reworked Maxwell without his starting fuel? Just yes or no. 

[ThymeSpirit]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

Majority dosen't care to continue this discussion that's all there is to it.

You stop responding to people when you don't have a counterargument and count that as a "win" for yourself, lol.

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

Suggestion has awful arguments for why it should be implemented.

You keep asking others for arguments and then calling them awful, but what is your argument for why the 6 fuels need to stay? Imagine it weren't there, what is your argument for adding it?

[Gi-Go]

11 minutes ago, ThymeSpirit said:

You stop responding to people when you don't have a counterargument and count that as a "win" for yourself, lol.

You keep asking others for arguments and then calling them awful, but what is your argument for why the 6 fuels need to stay? Imagine it weren't there, what is your argument for adding it?

I just forgot to reply to you that's all :P

My argument for why 6 fuel should stay is there are zero reasons to remove it. Good enough? 

[ThymeSpirit]

2 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I just forgot to reply to you that's all :P

You "forget" whenever there is a question you don't want to answer. Very convenient.

2 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

My argument for why 6 fuel should stay is there are zero reasons to remove it. Good enough? 

So you don't have a single reason to keep it then? So that means you won't miss it if it gets removed, and by your own logic it should, because there are zero reasons to keep it. At the same time, there were plenty of reasons for removing mentioned by other people, the fact that you dismiss them all as nonsense doesn't make them less valid for those people. And unlike them, you don't even have a "bad" reason for keeping the nf.

[Gashzer]

Webber having to recruit spiders first before being able to craft their respective spiderdoodle is fun! Having a similar system for unlocking both the duelist and shadow prison spell would also be fun. I think maxwell starting with sneak and servants is fine. And progression also would be, most importantly, fun!

Progression isn't a nerf at all, it just gives us players something unique to strive for each character that results in the same power level at the end. Thats why i have massive satisfaction playing both wurt and webber.

I think DST was released wrongly too... the old don't starve you had to unlock new characters via experience and it was loads of fun. I was very disappointed when all the characters where accessible from the get go when DST first came out... i very much miss progression in DST.

[Pig Princess]

35 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I get it mate, you wrote a gotcha moment and I ignored it so now you are salty. Just repeat the question and I'll answer it to make you happy. 

You also "forgot" to answer to me. Your memory is very selective apparently.

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

 I need to ask you something important before continuing this discussion. Have you ever tried playing reworked Maxwell without his starting fuel? Just yes or no. 

Out of curiosity: did you try to play as reworked Maxwell without starting fuel?

-----------

2 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

I don't see how dumbbells are meaningful progression but shadow equipment isn't.

Wolfgang has to collect weapons, armor, healing and other items (like speed boosts or pan flutes) in order to unlock his full potential, he can't fight bosses with solely his starting inventory (stone dumbbell). Maxwell though can skip armor, weapons and other tools (speed boosts, ice staves/walls, etc.). It's true that in some cases picking some cacti or crafting spear would lead to much better result (on qualitative level); should we just agree that need to sometimes find some cacti or craft spear is decent progression?

[Gi-Go]

20 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Out of curiosity: did you try to play as reworked Maxwell without starting fuel?

Yes, thanks for asking. Every single game i played after this post was made I dispose of my starting fuel for meme value.

What about you guys? Has any one of you even tried it? What the experience was like? Was it better than way? Why? 

24 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

You also "forgot" to answer to me. Your memory is very selective apparently.

I didn't felt like explaining why your analogy on self imposed challenges is bad but if you really want me to, here: You compared intentionally removing your starting fuel with intentionally fighting bosses with fishing rod. Dosen't that mean that op suggesting klei to remove everyone's starting fuel is the same as me suggesting klei to force everyone to fight with fishing rods? 

35 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Wolfgang has to collect weapons, armor, healing and other items (like speed boosts or pan flutes) in order to unlock his full potential, he can't fight bosses with solely his starting inventory (stone dumbbell). Maxwell though can skip armor, weapons and other tools (speed boosts, ice staves/walls, etc.). It's true that in some cases picking some cacti or crafting spear would lead to much better result (on qualitative level); should we just agree that need to sometimes find some cacti or craft spear is decent progression?

Can I have a video of current Maxwell killing raid bosses with just his starting inventory? As for regular bosses *cough cough* wigfrid *cough* 

[Pig Princess]

58 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Yes, thanks for asking. Every single game i played after this post was made I dispose of my starting fuel for meme value.

So you didn't try it in the end. Then why are you suggesting others to do it?

58 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I didn't felt like explaining

Right. Of course. It's totally not because you can't bring counter-arguement.

Also I explained why I gave Wolfgang with sea fishing rod example: it's the same logic (yours, actually), point of which is "you should pretend that something works in desired way rather than admit how something really works and/or try to change how something really works". You are living in some kind of fault logic bubble, and I advice you to open you eyes before it became even harder to admit truth for you. It's actually dangerous to have this mindset, i.e. to let your fantasies supplant observations. It's ok to be wrong sometimes as long as you can correct yourself, but you are not even trying to open your eyes.

58 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Can I have a video of current Maxwell killing raid bosses with just his starting inventory? As for regular bosses *cough cough* wigfrid *cough*

Can I have a video of spear-only Wolfgang that kills Dragonfly? Only your starting item - stone dumbbell - and spears. No pan flutes, no staves, nothing. And same for Wigfrid. As for regular bosses, do you mean moose/goose or deerclops? There are such videos on youtube. Go check. In case this thread won't be locked, I will link them once I have opportunity today.

[Gi-Go]

10 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

So you didn't try it in the end. 

What? I wasn't sarcastic, I meant what I said. 

[Copyafriend]

Can someone please just close this thread, its going in circles, the devs have read what people think they’ll make the decisions.

[Mike23Ua]

Just a reminder: Some characters continue to get tweaks and changes even AFTER their refresh Period.

I use to have stacks upon stacks of Gembells as Wolfgang, but when the Marble Dumbell was Added and Gembells now also require Thelucite (a resource I have no clue where to get/farm) I only have the few Gembells I’ve got left I made BEFORE this change.

What this means for Maxwell- is after launch Klei may make the same kind of changes to his “Power Creep” they did to Wolfgang.

Im warning you in advance so your not disappointed later.