Should griefers/trolls be taken into account for the updates?

[SapoLover]

I've seen people suggesting changes based on their experience on public servers and the griefing potential Wickerbottom will have after her rework (even though any character can build a torch and steal stuff).

I'm not talking about things like spawn protection, that's good. I'm talking about changes that affect the environment (Character changes, building protection, new items to preventing specific people from doing certain things, and I don't have enough imagination to continue, but you get the idea).

[Mike23Ua]

You know while most people are focused on the “moon book” and “rain book” the one I think is going to be Hilarious for griefers to use is actually the PyroKinetics Explained.

Why? Because now hear me out on this IT PUTS OUT FIRES!!

Now your probably thinking yeah so? Rainbook would also put out fires, and maybe.. but not instantly, and the players can just keep them fueled, however..

Im picturing those pitiful noobs like 40% of my Xbox friends list who do not know how to make a Thermal Stone and stay huddled by a campfire to stay warm during Winter, or the more experienced noobs who make it to Summer but stay huddled near an Endo fire to stay cool- or the newbest of noobs who rely on nightly campfires and telling annoying repetitive camp stories to survive Charlie’s attacks & regain sanity.

I can just hilariously see a Wickerbottom use this book to extinguish firepits 

[Ohan]

Taking griefers into account is what ruined willow for the longest time and is probably still holding her character back

pubs r the wild west nothing short of 24/7 moderation will end griefing in a situation like that. 

[ADM]

It truly makes no sense to take in account a griefing potential of a certain item or what, because despite that there is one, that it does something newish or not, all it takes to grief a whole world at a much more horrible level is a torch. So get me rain or a full moon, get the gems at the archives, I don't see where's the problem with the rework if nothing is safe to begin with before the update.

[Captain_Rage]

1 hour ago, ADM said:

It truly makes no sense to take in account a griefing potential of a certain item or what, because despite that there is one, that it does something newish or not, all it takes to grief a whole world at a much more horrible level is a torch. So get me rain or a full moon, get the gems at the archives, I don't see where's the problem with the rework if nothing is safe to begin with before the update.

Indeed. If Klei starts changing the game too much to take "griefing" into account it basically means that the true griefers won, lol.

 

Edit:

*too much into account

[nimzowitsch10]

I can see woodie never being used in pubs ever again which is sad

[BezKa]

In a perfect world? There wouldn't be a question.

In our world, you either make no griefing protection and get complaints for not caring about players, or make protection and get complaints for restricting players.

So like, who even knows.

[Harrowick]

part of the reason I've adopted a nomadic playstyle recently! Can't get griefed if I don't live anywhere. I don't see griefers as the end of the world, but just another obstacle. A betrayal, sure, but it isn't impossible to rebuild. 

[Cheggf]

I don't think griefers should be taken into account but whenever something could change to improve multiplayer with little to no impact on single player it should be done. For example, the Terrarium spawning on a random person just gets a bunch of noobs killed for no reason in multiplayer. Changing it to spawn on who activated it would make it work more like how it does in Terraria, greatly improve the item in multiplayer, and not change single player at all since it already spawns on them as they're the only person there.

The only multiplayer related concern I have for the current update is the weird recipe they gave to the lunar grimoire. In single player there is next to no cost since you start with 2 iri gems, but in multiplayer you'll have to rush to those gems and hold on to them before someone else does and decides they don't want to play any more. It's a very easy item to get in single player but could be very difficult in multiplayer so removing that requirement of the recipe would make both single player and multiplayer take about as much effort as the current recipe (sailing to the lunar island for moon moth wings is a big out of the way thing while archives are frequently found from just going into sinkholes).

[LitulLola]

No. Imo it takes away creativity and limits potential. It can stifle unique content and prevent growth. But I can see others point of view even tho it differs from mine

[Grim the]

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why? Because now hear me out on this IT PUTS OUT FIRES!!

Mike, did you know that ice does the same thing?

It's much easier to obtain, costs no sanity, and can be done by anyone. 

[EerieEra]

No. And they should reverse the nerfs on Willow that happened solely because griefers used her character.
It's like if they removed Webber's neutrality and taming of spiders because griefers used him.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, EerieEra said:

No. And they should reverse the nerfs on Willow that happened solely because griefers used her character.
It's like if they removed Webber's neutrality and taming of spiders because griefers used him.

What nerfs did Willow receive because of griefers? 

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

What nerfs did Willow receive because of griefers? 

fire immunity which was returned after much outcry by the community during her refresh period and inventory burning in which she could set a item in her inventory on fire.

[Horsheen]

Terrarium still targets random players so I don't think character or items in the future should take griefing potential into account since you can still literally drop a boss on unprepared players

[-Variant]

16 hours ago, Ohan said:

Taking griefers into account is what ruined willow for the longest time and is probably still holding her character back

As much as I hate to say it... yeah. I do feel this is what ended up halting her potential.
I noticed her rework was focused on Bernie instead of doing anything unique and fun with fire itself which is a huge shame. I hope they come back around to her sometime.

Now. As for the topic, I don't want Klei to put in too much effort trying to cull troll users since no matter what they'll always appear.
And balancing content around trolls and griefers is just icky.
Some mechanics like spawn protection were badly needed and are very useful but I don't think entire updates or even future updates should have a strong focus on it.

[Theukon-dos]

I think that griefing should be accounted for. But shouldn't be dictate a character's entire design.

 

While yes, Griefing is incredibly easy. That doesn't mean it should be easier to do. I could go to your house and douse it in gasoline. But that doesn't mean regulations should be lowered to make electrical fires more common.

In Wicker's case, not only can she completely block access to 2 bosses by constantly restarting the lunar cycle, she can also make life a living hell for anyone playing Woodie. The first one was probably already possible. But Wicker still makes it much easier. And Woodie mains being forced to dive into the caves every other night because they exist on the same plane of existence as Wickerbottom is something that no form of griefing can currently do. And is definitely a big problem that needs addressed in one way or another.

 

5 hours ago, Cheggf said:

What nerfs did Willow receive because of griefers? 

When DST first entered early access. Both Woodie and Willow got massive nerfs to "accommodate" for the multiplayer environment. Woodie I believe was mostly directed towards PvP, because apparently Klei saw that as more than a novelty at one point. But Willow received significant nerfs towards her interactions with fire. Which. At the time, was all she had.

 

I forget the specifics; the Willow Rework was 3 years ago after all. But if I recall correctly

 

Don't Starve Willow:

>Immune to Fire

>Has an infinite durability lighter

>lights fires when insane

 

Pre-rework Don't Starve Together Willow

>Temporarily immune to fire

>Lighter has durability

>Freezes when she goes insane

 

This may not sound like much. But combined with some overall nerfs to fire as a mechanic, Willow ended up becoming much weaker and less interesting as a result. The reason some folks (like myself) get up in arms about the Willow refresh is because Bernie wasn't added until after these other changes I mentioned. He was basically a "We're sorry we took your favorite character and broke their knee caps." Apology gift. And then they decided to focus on that gift instead of, you know. Giving the Pyromaniac interesting things to do with fire.

 

One notable thing that Don't Starve willow was able too do was called "Inventory burning". As the name suggests, Willow could ignite items in her inventory without taking damage thanks to her fire immunity. She was able to reach some extreme DPS with this tactic and basically become a death ball

 

[Cheggf]

4 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

fire immunity which was returned after much outcry by the community during her refresh period and inventory burning in which she could set a item in her inventory on fire.

That was removed because Klei was worried it would be too strong in pvp. They brought it back because they stopped caring about pvp. Fire immunity doesn't even help with griefing, you have to kill yourself on the flames on purpose. 

[Ohan]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

In Wicker's case, not only can she completely block access to 2 bosses by constantly restarting the lunar cycle, she can also make life a living hell for anyone playing Woodie.

Why is nobody taking the grimoires out of the bookcase when theyre recharging? How is 1 person dictating what happens when everyone else disagrees? Why are they not being kicked? Why is nobody communicating with each other? 

Forcing endless full moons or rain for that matter on a server where everyone else besides the villainous vote-kick immune wickerbottom player does not want it is such a fantastical unrealistic scenario. Completely imaginary 

edit: i just tested it and it takes roughly 40 seconds of standing still for the weremeter to empty during a full moon. After ur left with empty hunger and like -9 sanity… cuz its not from a totem u dont lose hp. 

Woodie could certainly use tweaks to make his life easier regardless of the grimoire. The grimoire is avoidable with communication or playing solo/without a wick, lunar storms are not if you want to advance the game’s storyline. And they can both cause him the same daily 40 sec pause and empty stomach inconvenience. 

[Cheggf]

5 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Why is nobody taking the grimoires out of the bookcase when theyre recharging? How is 1 person dictating what happens when everyone else disagrees? Why are they not being kicked? Why is nobody communicating with each other? 

Forcing endless full moons or rain for that matter on a server where everyone else besides the villainous vote-kick immune wickerbottom player does not want it is such a fantastical unrealistic scenario. Completely imaginary 

If they kick the Wickerbottom then what are they going to complain about? Not an option. 

[Stonetribe]

While I agree that the changes to Willow in DST's early days were pointless and wholly for the worse, I don't entirely blame Klei for shying away from fire related perks.

Not because of griefers mind you, griefers gonna grief no matter what. Rather, I think that in all likelihood we'd see more pub related harm come from newer, inexperienced players. Scenarios where a newbie tries to utilize a fire related perk, makes some sort of mistake/doesn't think things through, and ends up causing collateral damage that effects other players seem all too plausible to me. And sure, this can easily happen with any character, but Willow would literally encourage people to play with fire. And while it's a damn shame considering her one track mind personality and 80% of her quotes mentioning fire, I can't blame the Devs for shifting more focus towards the Bernster.

Then again, I do adore Bernie aesthetically so I might be just a tad biased.

[Mysterious box]

6 hours ago, Ohan said:

Why is nobody taking the grimoires out of the bookcase when theyre recharging? How is 1 person dictating what happens when everyone else disagrees? Why are they not being kicked? Why is nobody communicating with each other? 

Forcing endless full moons or rain for that matter on a server where everyone else besides the villainous vote-kick immune wickerbottom player does not want it is such a fantastical unrealistic scenario. Completely imaginary 

This is a strawman in my opinion the moon is beneficial to people's survival meaning there will almost never be a scenario where everyone is against them using the book meaning a vote kick usually isn't happening because it likely won't be the will of most of the server. However if you steal the book you are intentionally griefing which can lead to you getting kicked or banned it's been said multiple times not everyone works like a hive mind they have they're own considerations it's like what I was talking about when this was compared to Willow. Burning your base is bad there is no benefit so everyone will be on the same page on the other hand the moon is beneficial and reasons not to use it will only benefit a few people in most scenarios this in itself can be a problem.

[Ohan]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

This is a strawman in my opinion the moon is beneficial to people's survival meaning there will almost never be a scenario where everyone is against them using the book

How is it a strawman? This is what was said and what i was replying to: 

8 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

In Wicker's case, not only can she completely block access to 2 bosses by constantly restarting the lunar cycle

this argument assumes that people on the server desperately want to do those two bosses but wickerbottom alone is stopping them. And my reply which u quoted was a list of things people on the server could do to alleviate this.

If everyone on the server loves full moons and do not want to do those two bosses then what is the issue?

Only difference between a server asking the wicker to keep the full moons rolling and a server keeping their lunar storms going is that it could potentially happen earlier. The detriment to any woodie player is the same.

Except the former is portrayed as uniquely problematic. 

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, Ohan said:

If everyone on the server loves full moons and do not want to do those two bosses then what is the issue?

The problem is the case when the minority or a equal amount or people want to do do the bosses I don't get how people don't understand this.

 

9 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Only difference between a server asking the wicker to keep the full moons rolling and a server keeping their lunar storms going is that it could potentially happen earlier. The detriment to any woodie player is the same.

Except the former is portrayed as uniquely problematic. 

But what needs to be considered is the benefits of using the full moon vs the benefits of not using it and what that means to each player on the server this is a problem because they do not match up evenly meaning people are more likely to pick the moon which is where the problem comes from this isn't a issue as simple as griefers be bad.

[Ohan]

52 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The problem is the case when the minority or a equal amount or people want to do do the bosses I don't get how people don't understand this.

Then this is no longer an issue with the grimoire but an issue with multiplayer imo. 

I wish someone would compile all the complaints against the grimoire cuz i know it would be a very funny list. 

first it was light is op then werepig farm and other full moon enabled events are op then 1 wickerbottom will grief and hold server hostage 

and now the grimoire is blamed for the consequences of unorganized multiplayer settings where a minority has different goals than the majority. 
 

With no regard for the fact that players with co-op in mind could very easily resolve the issue at hand by letting a new moon come to pass, which the grimoire can in fact make happen earlier depending on the phase of the moon.