Why all the Nerfs and Grind?

[Spino43]

1 hour ago, EighteenXVIII said:

I agree that Klei is obsessed with making you chop down trees

If I have a nickel for every tree I have chopped, I will have enough money to buy off Klei and force them to finish the Ancient Gateway arc.

But yeah, even in super late game I still find myself having a shortage of logs, so many recipes require logs, and a lot of them to boot.

[Mike23Ua]

The thing about WX78’s night vision is that as any other character with the sole exception to Wendy- When those characters need light: They need to have that light in their Weapon or Helmet Slot.

WX78 can have their light AND a Weapon/Helmet.

I feel like the circuit being “Infinite” is a bit of an overkill, to ME it makes sense that this circuit would slowly drain in power over time and need recharging again (could easily be done by storing lightning charges into a lightning Rod)

As it stands right now: you can install this circuit and practically LIVE in caves.

[GelatinousCube]

29 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The thing about WX78’s night vision is that as any other character with the sole exception to Wendy- When those characters need light: They need to have that light in their Weapon or Helmet Slot.

WX78 can have their light AND a Weapon/Helmet.

I feel like the circuit being “Infinite” is a bit of an overkill, to ME it makes sense that this circuit would slowly drain in power over time and need recharging again (could easily be done by storing lightning charges into a lightning Rod)

As it stands right now: you can install this circuit and practically LIVE in caves.

I can do the same with the crown (Yeah it takes a headslot but I change to morning star if I need a helmet for combat) and a festive light in hutch. The circuit is fine as is.

Once you're setup living in caves as anyone is pretty easy.

[Faintly Macabre]

I think the moggles circuit is fairly well-balanced. 4 circuit slots is a decently high opportunity cost.

[loopuleasa]

The most impressive thing about this thread is how the original post has 0 likes.

Savage.

[Antynomity]

20 hours ago, Lumine04 said:

Well Wanda is a very ambitious character with a health system that no matter what most say, is more punishing then any other character. She also costs money, and this attributes to her extremely unique playstyle and abilities which IS fair. No character are getting nerfed, none of them are bad except for Wes and Maxwell. Also, are you seriously telling me permanent night vision a 75% speed boost is not good?! Really... 

75% IS NOTHING IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING GRRR, MIGHT AS WELL MAKE 100 CIRCUIT SLOTSNMMMM

[Cheggf]

9 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The thing about WX78’s night vision is that as any other character with the sole exception to Wendy- When those characters need light: They need to have that light in their Weapon or Helmet Slot.

WX78 can have their light AND a Weapon/Helmet.

I feel like the circuit being “Infinite” is a bit of an overkill, to ME it makes sense that this circuit would slowly drain in power over time and need recharging again (could easily be done by storing lightning charges into a lightning Rod)

As it stands right now: you can install this circuit and practically LIVE in caves.

Magi gives light on body slot and you can get light for no slots with a dropped lantern, beefalo, (lesser) glowberry, glowberry mousse, setting your opponent on fire, and any stationary light source like a star caller staff or setting nearby items on fire. Probably more I'm not remembering off the top of my head.

[NoodlemanNed]

i think the main grind is that surviving an entire year takes like 9 hours. Im not saying this is a bad thing but it means that no matter how much you rebalance items/characters, there will always be a grind. DST is inherently a very slow game, if you dont like that then theres the option of speedrunning, although that unfortunately ignores the lategame you talked a lot about.

[Mysterious box]

23 hours ago, Lumine04 said:

Well Wanda is a very ambitious character with a health system that no matter what most say, is more punishing then any other character. She also costs money, and this attributes to her extremely unique playstyle and abilities which IS fair. No character are getting nerfed, none of them are bad except for Wes and Maxwell. Also, are you seriously telling me permanent night vision a 75% speed boost is not good?! Really... 

Idk I still find Walter alot more punishing than Wanda and even taking random players into account tend to see alot more Walter death than Wanda since by the time they get magic up combat is mostly solved for Wanda while Walter doesn't really scale upwards and can spiral much faster. I feel like so long as your not tanking Wanda's durability and healing is reasonably easily managed.

 

[Lumine04]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Idk I still find Walter alot more punishing than Wanda and even taking random players into account tend to see alot more Walter death than Wanda since by the time they get magic up combat is mostly solved for Wanda while Walter doesn't really scale upwards and can spiral much faster. I feel like so long as your not tanking Wanda's durability and healing is reasonably easily managed.

Oh yeah, I have a friend who plays Walter. We survived till day 48 and prior to that, she died 22 TIMES. No hate, she's new but dang...

[Mysterious box]

14 hours ago, EighteenXVIII said:

WX is busted for sure. Watch Jazzy's Games, he explains very well just how strong he is after his rework.

I can't speak about Wanda, haven't played her.

I agree that Klei is obsessed with making you chop down trees. If you want a proper boat with two masts, you're looking at:

- 4 Boards for the Think Tank

- 4 Boards for the Boat Kit

- 2 Boards for the Steering Wheel

- 2 Boards for the Anchor

- 6 Boards for two Masts (just one is too slow)

- Let's say 10 Boat Patches which isn't much. That's another 20 Logs.

(18 Boards x 4 Logs) + 20 Logs = 92 Logs or chopping down 23 full sized trees. And then as the noob you are, you sail into a bunch of Cookie Cutters who make you lose all of that work instantly.

Don't even talk about Chests. I have a mod that gives them 24 slots as opposed to 9. I still have to collect dozens of stacks of wood frequently. I even started using Glommer Goop as fuel to save on logs. I have 3x3 chest grids in a larger 3x3 grid. So 81 chests total, granted about half are empty for now. But considering I have a mod that almost triples their storage, and that you do need that many just for proper sorting not just raw space, it's honestly too expensive.

I think 9 slots doesn't cut it anymore with the current state of the game. It was workable back in 2013-2014 when you were a solo player with a small variety of items. Having the option to put all your gems, thulecite, fragments etc. in a single chest and still have room for overflowing stacks is so nice. Having to split similar items between chests makes me a sad DST player.

 

13 hours ago, Spino43 said:

If I have a nickel for every tree I have chopped, I will have enough money to buy off Klei and force them to finish the Ancient Gateway arc.

But yeah, even in super late game I still find myself having a shortage of logs, so many recipes require logs, and a lot of them to boot.

Thou know not true log obsession till thou attempt a merm village.....

1 minute ago, Lumine04 said:

Oh yeah, I have a friend who plays Walter. We survived till day 48 and prior to that, she died 22 TIMES. No hate, she's new but dang...

I know it's a unpopular combo but I'd recommend her trying to use body armor with pine hat it doesn't solve his sanity spiral but it does slow it down a fair amount.

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, NoodlemanNed said:

i think the main grind is that surviving an entire year takes like 9 hours. Im not saying this is a bad thing but it means that no matter how much you rebalance items/characters, there will always be a grind. DST is inherently a very slow game, if you dont like that then theres the option of speedrunning, although that unfortunately ignores the lategame you talked a lot about.

Why do you need to survive a year? It doesn't do anything. Closest you get is needing summer to fight the cc but that isn't inherent to season length.

[Lumine04]

24 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I know it's a unpopular combo but I'd recommend her trying to use body armor with pine hat it doesn't solve his sanity spiral but it does slow it down a fair amount.

I already suggested that, but shes having the noob urge of "the backpack is the best and only thing for the body slot"

...we all had that phase

[Theukon-dos]

On 5/9/2022 at 1:35 PM, GelatinousCube said:

Agree on Wanda and also not a big fan of the WX rework but disagree on pretty much everything else though.

Some of the Wanda defense here is ridiculous though, some people just continue to flat out refuse to admit she's leagues above the rest of the cast even though it's straight up cold hard fact.

As much as I don't think other characters should be on her level she certainly needs a nerf and I can understand the frustration of other characters being balanced while she exists in her current state. 

See, here's the thing about Wanda

Yes, she's OP. But she's OP in the Best Way Possible.

She has a series of unique perks that all tie together well, she has a completely unique downside that fundamentally changes how you play, She has strong utility, and a phenomenal set of utilty. She's OP yes, but her design is such a well-oiled machine that I'm afraid that trying to nerf her at all would make the whole thing come falling down, and just make her less fun to play.

Meanwhile, other traditionally "Overpowered" characters; namely Wolfgang and WX-78; where boring as Dung.

Wolfgang gained Damage and speed just for eating. So if you knew how to manage hunger properly and/or get a lot of food, then you may aswell have just been playing Wilson Requiem. Doing everything faster but nothing interesting.

Meanwhile WX only needed to take a quick trip down to the ruins for gears inorder to become Senator Armstrong, with six-fudging-hundred HP. And then if you had a Wickerbotton on the server you also basically had free drugs, giving you light, speed, and freezing immunity. They where strong, yes. But again, they didn't do anything interesting. They where just a big ball of stats and light.

So to summerize

Wolfgang and WX: OP and boring

Wanda: OP but interesting.

22 hours ago, EighteenXVIII said:

I agree that Klei is obsessed with making you chop down trees. If you want a proper boat with two masts, you're looking at:

- 4 Boards for the Think Tank

- 4 Boards for the Boat Kit

- 2 Boards for the Steering Wheel

- 2 Boards for the Anchor

- 6 Boards for two Masts (just one is too slow)

- Let's say 10 Boat Patches which isn't much. That's another 20 Logs.

(18 Boards x 4 Logs) + 20 Logs = 92 Logs or chopping down 23 full sized trees. And then as the noob you are, you sail into a bunch of Cookie Cutters who make you lose all of that work instantly.

While I do agree that Don't Stave is a bit to down bad when it comes to wood, I don't think that boats are a particularly good example. 

Yes, making a decked-out boat like this is expensive. But fankly, this sort of boat is also comically overkill. As someone who actually enjoys sailing (Yet still wouldn't recommend it), there's pretty much no reason to make such an advanced boat unless you're sailing too and from a specific location.

You know what I recommend for your first trip out to sea

1. A boat

2. An oar

3. A Fire pit.

And that's all you need really. Fasts as they are, masts are comically hard to maneuver. Use them and it'll be basically impossible to maneuver around rocks or whatever. Meanwhile, a single oar should be enough for you to find a piece of Driftwood, which you can then turn into a Driftwood oar. They're only about 10% slower than a pair of sails, but they're much more maneuverable, have more variable speed if you need to creep through somewhere, and are pretty much self-sustaining once you get your first.

And because we're not using sails anymore, we can also cut out the steering wheel and the anchor.  And unless we're hunting for salt, we also won't need to bring any boat patches, as the extra control of our oar means that we're at minimal risk of a collision-based leak. 

So, in total, that brings our wood cost down too

4 planks for the Think Tank

4 planks for the boat

1 log for the oar

2 logs for the fire pit.

 

That's only 8 and 3/4ths boards. Or 39 logs. Less than 2 stacks of either. And if you really want to be cautious and bring some extra boat patches, that's only another 10-20 logs depending on how many you want to bring.

[EighteenXVIII]

3 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Fasts as they are, masts are comically hard to maneuver. Use them and it'll be basically impossible to maneuver around rocks or whatever. Meanwhile, a single oar should be enough for you to find a piece of Driftwood, which you can then turn into a Driftwood oar. They're only about 10% slower than a pair of sails, but they're much more maneuverable, have more variable speed if you need to creep through somewhere, and are pretty much self-sustaining once you get your first.

And because we're not using sails anymore, we can also cut out the steering wheel and the anchor.  And unless we're hunting for salt, we also won't need to bring any boat patches, as the extra control of our oar means that we're at minimal risk of a collision-based leak. 

The way I control the sail boat is honestly by dropping the anchor at the first sight of a rock that I might not dodge. But sailing back and forth to Lunar Island quickly and for free is nice. For farming salt, I use a second boat that is exactly like you described because my salt formations are close to the coast and you do need the oar to move around the mined rocks. Actually I forgot to bring a pickaxe once, so instead I had to ram into the salt rocks which worked surprisingly well. Did require some boat patches though.

I would say that it's not either/or though. I still bring an oar to easily reach bottles, but just the idea that if you want a real boat that's not just an oversized wooden frisbee you have to cough up so many logs is kind of silly.

[ZombieDupe]

On 5/9/2022 at 1:07 PM, Faintly Macabre said:

You didn't have to "play well". You hunted some gears and you got a Wicker to overload you to kingdom come. Wolfgang and Wanda require careful management for their game-breaking perks.

I don't know that this rework really got it right but WX absolutely needed a whack with the nerf stick.

Why? Wanda can have all her watches and much more all at the same time. WX has to have cooldowns and can't slot anywhere near as much modules to reflect more of the old system. This nerf made it yet another basic "quirky" type character. There is no practical reason to choose it over others.

And yes you did need to play well. Those who didn't understand the perks mentioned at the main menu and continuously died as the character have not been able to take full use of WX perks. Maybe it's a more newbie friendly character now, but WX peaks the moment all module slots are full, which anyone can do and the results are abysmal.

On 5/9/2022 at 1:30 PM, Just-guy said:

With a single Digamajig you can make 4 Farm Soil turf tiles and can plant 9 crops on each (more if you find a way), and since it's more likely you'll get a seasonal crop, you won't have to wait more than 4 days to get the crop, enough time to explore the map and return to collect them and even if you miss them and rot they will repeat their growth cycle.

That's how the system is, it rewards those who take care of their crops but doesn't punish harshly those who don't care about learning all the aspects of farming.

The point is that's something that should happen early to mid game. I don't ever want this basic of a menial setup be the end all to it, it makes no sense for it to be this slow hundreds, thousands of days into the game. Stuff like this should always be possible to speed up massively at that point. If we had a sprinkler and Wickerbottom's old Applied Horticulture book back, you could turn it on to water the plants, then have the book read to get giant plants if everything was planted correctly. Then take a moment to harvest and replant if you want to. Spending all your time farming this late in the game shouldn't be a thing unless you are desperate and don't have the resources to do it for whatever reason.

 

On 5/9/2022 at 1:38 PM, cropo said:

WX is much funner to me after the rework. They have a myriad of modules he can use, but they can't use every single one of them, a WX player should always feel like there is a crucial component missing in their stats(to me) and the rework does that nicely.  They can trivialize a few mechanics of the game at their choice at the expense of making others harder. They still have full healing from stale food so rot is far less of a concern to them they still heal stupid amounts from gears which don't expire, and they no longer need to have a Wickerbottom slave to zap them for invincibility.

 

Cutting trees is not a problem. Make a massive garden of eden full of trees where you want, then have Bearger come and demolish them all. Sure, the first year will have you struggling for logs, but you don't need an elaborate base with 200 chests everywhere in the first year.

 

Grinding for bosses has become a norm because of the introduction of Bundling Wrap, players no longer have to worry about spoilage on important healing and sanity and buff foods courtesy of Warly and having to actually prepare to fight them makes them a bigger threat than having them just come at you in a season with lower health so you can routinely murder them. It might not be your preferred solution(and I agree bullet sponges are crap) but the game was balanced around playing with at least one other player. The Crab King is generally regarded as one of the worst bosses so your complaints on the crab king are justified imo,  I really hate that boss myself and it definitely is an absolute, soul-crushing grind of tedium and boredom doing Pearls chores to unlock the pearl.

 

Farming is also incredibly easy, all you need to do is capture a bird and feed it carrots for the seeds. Carrots are nearly impossible to fail getting profit seeds from, and you can feed the extra produce to the captured bird until you have 36 seeds to cover all 4 farm plots and with a fridge you'll have so many carrot seeds you'll probably end up being able to eat just the seeds themselves for a few days and still have more than 40 left. You never have to worry about the nutrient system at all.  After awhile you can start saving up random seeds and plant them in specific seasons to try and get rarer plants like peppers for Warly's damage spice and Dragon Fruit and feed the first few harvests to the bird to get a profit on seed return and then mass plant those as well.  I would hardly consider it a grind, it's growing food which is supposed to be the main point of the game, it's even in the title. If you think ''getting food'' is a grind why are you even playing?

 

 

Wicker was nerfed but we're seeing this from the perspective of someone who hasn't had their character refresh yet, judgement on her will have to wait until she does get it then we can see what she'll really be capable of.   You could also just use Birds of the World and Night Time Stories to murder a bunch of birds for meat, which also makes it much easier to spawn in Krampus early for a chance to get his sack.

The module system kind of just doesn't work, at the very least if it's so restricted. It's more intricate to have the modules, but if you can't powerup later in the game to be an extremely useful and powerful character, then what use are you?

Cutting dozens of trees early game shouldn't be a thing. You can dedicate someone to do it, but that should be a boost if anything. Double the yield and half the cost for boards for example could mitigate the insane amounts needed for anything decent for your camp. It's pointless grind at the moment, why do we have to do this? Bearger isn't an early game method though at all.

Grinding for bosses should not be a thing you have to do, again. Just kill them once and unless you lose an item from them there shouldn't be too much required incentive to fight them again. You can fight them for the vanity of it, but fighting them again and again for the sake of lots of loot is tedium.

Farming is "easy" but slow, that's my point. Early to mid game sure, fine. But end game?

I dread to think that Wickerbottom primarily will get nerfs, as if she wasn't nerfed enough with 2 books becoming effectively useless already. We need back original Horticulature book and WX needs some changing to make End is Nigh book have a decent use again. I can actually stand having WX charged by Wickerbottom every now and then to get good perks as opposed to being a useless pile of metal the entire time.

On 5/9/2022 at 4:19 PM, Maxil20 said:

While I do feel there are a few grindy elements in DST, I feel you picked a few that are fairly alright to do/repeatedly grind.
 

• Farming pre RWYS was really eh and practically forced you to pick Wicker if you wanted Any decent haul in farming, and even that required you to constantly pick crops > feed a bird the crops > replant the crops > Book > Repeat.
• While there is no automated way to till crops, you can still get a very good haul with minimal effort. Sure, you can put in a lot of effort and get rewarded well, but there's no need to do so if you simply want a 1 crop + 1 seed haul.
• Since you mentioned Wicker for farming, I want to mention Wormwood is a very good farmer now. Wormwood can induce bloom (which automatically tends nearby plants around him), skip the tilling + 75% of the time it takes to plant a crop, and can plant on untilled ground. I spent 1 summer farming peppers/dragonfruit and netted over 2-3 bundles of each (while also getting seeds) from just one harvest.
   

Lategame you can build setups to speed up a majority of bosses, such as with catapults or (if you really invest time into a world) houndius. You can practically do this for any boss give or take other then the celestial champion (as it has too many attacks that downright 1 shot houndius/catapults) given some adjustments (ex: flingos for CK). Doing so allows for quick and easy kills with minimal costs, especially if you have boss loot like bone armor.
 

This one does have a few good arguments to be made here, although I do partially disagree on some resources, especially with the recent QOL update.

• Boards: Klei's recent QOL made turf crafting with boards significantly cheaper; Wood/carpet flooring are now 1/4th the cost they used to be and they outright removed requiring boards for the cobblestone recipe. While these turfs are likely only going to be used in a megabasing context other then cobble, a huge chunk of boards lategame were essentially sunken into crafting these turfs. I do agree stuff like chests will put a significant dent in boards though, and I easily required thousands of boards for my chest storage, especially when said chests can't really store a whole lot.
• Grass/Twigs/Reeds: Grass/Twigs are basically used for Any project Ever, and while it's not needed at insane rates like boards are, you will drain through reserves when doing various projects. Wicker's applied silviculture book does help with farming these resources, and non character specific methods are also usable (just not nearly as fast). Reeds are fairly hit or miss, especially since worlds can vary (tiny swamps vs. having a reed trap). They are not required for too much, but they make some powerful luxuries, especially the Wicker books or gift wrap.
• Enlightened Crown Shards: I'm amazed you didn't talk about these. Out of any grindy resource in lategame DST, this is the big one. The crown you deconstruct to get these already suffices you with just about any light issue that could arise in a casual context, and the moonstorm punishes you more the larger your base gets. Fighting the champion to get 5 crown shards each kill does not feel sufficent, especially in megabase contexts where the amount of lights you want for decoration can reach into the hundreds, and especially if you want to do cave builds.

Being patient and politely asking here and there is Vastly different then borderline insulting the devs to make changes. I would like to see buffs to the lazy forager as well (such as refueling and/or more durability), but I imagine they are busy with working on content and the like, and it's best for things like these to be brought up during a QOL update (which a lot of user requested features were taken into account).

So if none else but Wickerbottom could potentially boost plants to make herself useful, creating the good old synergy between Wormwood and Wickerbottom pre-rework for farming, then neither should Wickerbottom have this perk. Just sit down and farm all day every day, can't even invent a sprinkler to automatically water plants either. That malbatross beak would be so much more useful if that's what you needed to build one of these. Even just one sprinkler covering 20 tiles for watering four 4x4 plantations would be excellent.

None of that insane farming stuff should be a requirement for bosses I think because if you overcome them once with the amount of setup that is required to do so (which itself is also already too much because of how low durability everything is), you should reap the benefits continuously most of the time, along with other players. Not really a multiplayer-oriented game if it's a first-come-first-serve kind of deal with certain boss loot or you having to roll for it in the end and fight bosses all over again, not only for others but also possibly for yourself. The key factor being have to.

Ah yes, cobblestones no longer require boards, really more of an end game benefit, while in reference to wood I was talking about early to mid game. Anything else that does require it really has stayed just as expensive. Way too many things in this game just require too many resources, like the endothermic firepit for example, taking up way too many rocks to build one. But most things that require wood and that you need to build several of are going to cost you lots of time and after about the 4th or 5th tree in a row when playing as most characters I want to go do something else, but nope, need that wood. Less costly boards (say 2 logs) and double the yield from trees would be excellent for that reason.

Enlightened crown shards are boss loot, so technically I did bring it up. Though it's nowhere near as useful as the crowns themselves, and plenty other loot like bee queen crowns and bone armors.

I don't have ill will towards them generally, but at this point for many aforementioned reasons, at this point these problems appear to be suspiciously done on purpose. I think what's happened is that devs have accidentally found reasons why the game takes so long to get anywhere, realized it keeps people in the games much longer despite all the grind and then they have not only the playtime hours of other players as proof of it "being a very good game", there's more opportunity to get money from you with less effort and time on content on their part due to a variety of constraints. If that isn't evidently dubious behavior then that's concerning to say the least. If they really did care for the quality and enjoyment for more people, they would have cut down on a lot of what has already been mentioned here, number and drop chance adjustments for loot, cost and durability are basically one line of code to push into the next patch, not something that takes years to finally do, if ever.

It's especially suspicious when you consider that Wanda was always more powerful than WX from the start and yet WX was the one to get nerfed into the ground while Wanda gets a free pass. But it is more fun to play with powerful characters, why nerf them to the point of less useful outcome?

On 5/9/2022 at 6:13 PM, Starlogy said:

You think WX got NERFED???

No other character is able to get a permanent 25% speed boost on DAY 1, not to mention every other module that was added with the rework. Permanent Moggles, being able to get up to 700(?!) health, health regen capabilities, I could go on.

OP is upset he can't shove gears down his throat to get max stats.

NONE of these perks can be stacked together besides like 2, maybe 3. Massive health pool for example means giving up on literally everything else. Before the rework, he could get 50% about as quickly with a Wickerbottom on the team for 20 or so days along with other perks on top of that, including better stats and permanent light, not to mention immunity to heat. Get your facts straight.

On 5/9/2022 at 6:16 PM, Lumine04 said:

The fact he has not made any replies to people proving his philosophy wrong makes me think 2 things. One, this is a trigger post or two, he hardly has any free time and is unwilling to put in the effort that all the mentioned changed to WX and farming offer. These are insane major buffs 100% and I cant believe people disagree with the WX rework and farming rework.

The most backwards thinking I've had to read around here. The idea of replying instantaneously to every single post is actually worse, it sends out a message to others that you would rather not have a discussion, I did wait on purpose for more people to talk about it before seeing the replies. I can't believe people disagree about WX rework either. Maybe because they didn't play enough WX with overcharge before the rework to accurately compare. Nowhere is there mention of comparison here.

On 5/9/2022 at 5:19 PM, HowlVoid said:

If you consider the length it took Wx-78 to get to a point where they had a consistent overcharge, then this is a buff. 

While Wicker could give them a consistent overcharge you were basically completely tethered to Wickerbottom. This meant Wx-78 was a half a character and Wicker was a character and a half; in other words Wx-78's perks where really Wicker's.

The overall progression and versatility in circuits is both consistent and gives Wx-78 tons of control.

Consider current progression vs old:

Old early game- (Wicker mandatory presence) Wx-78 was very strong with 50% speed, Winter immunity, and a small light radius. This saves tons of time when considering what you can do with all a second (shorter) autumn and tons of speed.

Old Late game-(Wicker still present/tons of purple gem usage) The light and Winter immunity becomes weaker and speed becomes more of a qol thing for certain playstyles. With furnaces, sun callers, thermal stones, mushlights, and enlightened crowns combined with a lesser urgency to accomplish things speed becomes less of a necessity (not all playstyle ofc). Though you are still locked in to these perks meaning the power of these perks greatly fluctuates.

Current early game (No Wicker required)- The latest it should take to get a speed module 2.0 is day 11 (full moon) if you decided not to rush the ruins and there are no rooks on the over world; via spawning one with the rook sculpture. This is far more consistent than what was previously possible with no wicker present. With a Wicker present, depending on RNG to collect a red gem, it could potentially take longer or less time. With a Wicker present this is a nerf from old Wx-78, but not by much considering you can still have the strongest perk of the 3 (50% speed). Compared to old Wx-78 you may need to now stop to heat up by burning a tree and carry lightbulbs/star caller for light. 

Current late game (No Wicker required/tons of purple gems)- This is where the game gets a lot more spicy. Do you like beefalos? You may consider drone master+weather protection to greatly reduce any resources wasted on healing on the odd times you take damage. Do you like the enlightened crown? Easily replaced a light circuit, you can stack 50% speed and all that's different from the old Wx-78 is thermal protection but by now this is hardly a problem. Plus if you're willing to sacrifice 10% speed you can get the super processing unit and get some sanity Regen that was not possible before. These are just a few combinations of all the variety that is possible.

It is my personal opinion that Wx-78 isn't just more consistent, he's funner and far more versatile.

Reliance on Wickerbottom for overcharge was nothing compared to the overall nerf of the character that the module system introduced because of the small amount of available slots. Also early game you're forgetting one thing that WX could do even more effectively than it does now, which is ruins rushing. Same time you could rush ruins with current WX you could do it probably in half the time as old if you worked together with a Wickerbottom player. And I've stated before that synergies are what keeps players into a cooperative multiplayer mindset. What could have been done is giving more options for overcharge, so even if Wickerbottom's book may be the best way to do it, you would still have some other options to keep it active for longer, as was the case with this update, but when overcharge itself doesn't mean anything, that's not a fair comparison.

I hate a lot of the RNG in this game, but there are enough graves to save yourself the trouble vast majority of the time. You could even have one book for overcharge to then be overcharged again after you exit the ruins with many more gems. A little note as well, when people say WX is a selfish character, that all depends on the player. You can haul gems, ruins loot, wires and gears for everyone to use, just do anything faster and more effectively than anyone else, or take it all for yourself in some secluded part of the world. But by that metric the character isn't really selfish, you are.

Keep in mind you could upgrade all stats without overcharge before too, permanently. Not only can you not upgrade all that to what it was before now, but if you do try to approach that, you give up on any other potential perks. Because of all this, I enjoyed playing as WX when I could have a much higher overall capability, even if it's something later in the game. And yet Wanda has this. Why does Wanda get all the most powerful stuff but WX gets the L?

And the versatility is kind of a lie, a carrot on a stick because of the small number of slots you get in the first place.

On 5/9/2022 at 7:38 PM, Lumine04 said:

Well Wanda is a very ambitious character with a health system that no matter what most say, is more punishing then any other character. She also costs money, and this attributes to her extremely unique playstyle and abilities which IS fair. No character are getting nerfed, none of them are bad except for Wes and Maxwell. Also, are you seriously telling me permanent night vision a 75% speed boost is not good?! Really... 

*snip*

There is so much wrong and incorrect information and assumptions here, it would make this long post twice as long. Maybe I will make a separate reply later. But I can tell you I can beat the game just fine and probably have payed it more and for longer than you given what the details of this post reveal.

On 5/10/2022 at 5:09 AM, EighteenXVIII said:

WX is busted for sure. Watch Jazzy's Games, he explains very well just how strong he is after his rework.

Jazzy doesn't appear to have played as the character pre-rework all that much to make a fair assessment. I didn't see a  comparison video from him either. Also he usually plays on his own. If he played with just one more player he could see the true potential of WX.

On 5/9/2022 at 8:01 PM, Lumine04 said:

The point Im making is every character suits a playstyle. My brother will never hop off willow cause he likes something fighting shadow creatures for him and enjoys the aesthetic and utility of the lighter.

People who say webber is worse than wurt is biased. My friend plays webber cause he enjoys befriending spiders and always manages to solo bosses with the help of nurse spiders. Nothing like that is offered with wurt and he finds it much more time consuming to establish an army. Again its about playstyle not whos better.

Then again my own thought process could be flawed who knows...

 

On 5/9/2022 at 9:12 PM, Lumine04 said:

Same situation here, unique ≠ overpowered 

This is because, Ill say it again, playstyle. Doesnt matter how overpowered a character may be, if their cool in your eyes and fit your needs you'll play them over everyone else.

Yeah, and that's the problem that invalidates arguments coming from people who only see it this far for balancing. Playing a character and liking their perks, then never trying out other characters as detailed by others who know how powerful specific characters can get shows to me that ignorance is how a lot of these comparisons are being made and why people stick to other, less powerful characters. Even if told, you won't switch because you got attached to whatever little use the character you picked near the start gave you and decided to keep it as a crutch, holding you back from getting better at the game.

When someone who knows what they are talking about because they had the experience you did not to reflect on, there aren't all that many points you can bring forward that would make your points more valid. Learn the game more broadly first maybe.

On 5/9/2022 at 11:28 PM, Mike23Ua said:

I don’t agree with any of your complaints, every game is a “grind” if you want to get the most out of them.. in fact- I officially challenge you to get all the achievements in all 3 of the Batman Arkham games, (I have) the reason I’m specifically picking these games is because in addition to needing to string together a 400 hit combo without using any gadgets and never getting hit, there’s also an achievement where you will need to visit and talk to a criminal on every real world Holiday of the year.

If you love the game though: the “Grind” is what makes it fun, the only legit complaint I have with the “Grind” is when it is UNFUN or it takes way too long to actually enjoy- this is crucial if you only have a limited amount of time to play (Ex if you can only gather your friends up for 30 minutes to an hour of gameplay)

I would say the Average Xbox DST public servers don’t even make it through the entire 4 seasons of the game- possibly because it takes literal hours to experience it all and by then- people are going to bed for school/work.. So what I’ve noticed happens most often is I’ll join a world, the world only lives for as long as the host is playing & then I never see that world again..

This is the only area where I find validity within your complaints- Somethings DO Indeed take too long to do, (such as activating the Moonstorm) Most people are never going to actually reach the point to experience that.. & I personally would have just preferred it to be a World Gen setting I could toggle on/off.

I also think it’s time Klei considers bringing their bosses down a peg or two- Read above where I said getting your friends together for 30 minutes to an Hour May be all the time you have to play together..

This in my opinion causes more “Harm” to the game then it does good- Because most my friends say the would love to experience X event or fight Y boss.. but they hate how long it takes to do it. Which is sad.. because bosses have unique gameplay mechanics and is additional content those players could enjoy.

In addition to this: you can now toggle active every special event in DST to remain active at all times: this means that things like Bundling Wraps & Dragonfly Loot are now just given to the player for Free without needing to fight the associated bosses.

So the TL:DR- Most people would prefer easier, shorter fights with said bosses since they can literally get their drops from holiday events/sunken treasure chests anyway now.

And as far as WX78’s rework goes- it’s nowhere near as Grindy as needing to spend forever setting up items/resources/traps etc to fight a raid boss.

WX78’s changes (once you’ve figured them out) should take you about 5 minutes to unlock the circuits you most want to use..

Bosses on the other hand- even if you’ve figured those out will take hours to prep for, or alternatively.. you can just gather a group of friends all pick Wolfgang/Wendy/Wanda and laugh as you quickly destroy the boss

So you say you don't agree with my assessment on grind, but then proceed to agree with pretty much my exact points about grind in this game, hmm...

You missed the point about WX. It's not that it's a grindy character to setup, it's that it doesn't reach anywhere near the pinackle of powerful use and fun and more simple gameplay as it did before, even if the mechanics were a little obscured and half of it was made most effective with the help of yet another character.

On 5/10/2022 at 5:57 AM, Faintly Macabre said:

Man. I haven't bothered to use a scaled chest since deciding they were unreasonably expensive waaay back in singleplayer RoG. I forgot how unreasonably large they are. Can we get a smaller variant of these things? The same space that 6 scaled chests takes up can be used by 12 regular chests, for 72 vs. 108 storage slots, respectively. If you don't want bigger chests for the looks of them this is just not a reasonable trade-off at all.

Or, hear me out, make all chest storage double the size or something, including the cut wood cost of boards and more wood from trees. We have a ton of garbage to store late game if you've ever played on a pub for a long period of time, tools especially.

[Lumine04]

9 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

  (I didnt mean to quote...)

I liked reading this (:

Ill probably edit and respond when I have the time cause this be crazy interesting. Glad to see this wasnt just a trigger post

[Faintly Macabre]

15 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Why? Wanda can have all her watches and much more all at the same time.

Because she actually has to work for it and juggle those perks with a dangerous playstyle? WX's downsides were virtually non-existent.

15 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

WX has to have cooldowns and can't slot anywhere near as much modules to reflect more of the old system.

He shouldn't. That was the entire point. Insane stats, an absurd speed boost, immunity to freezing, and unlimited light was a ridiculous amount of boons for its cost, the first of which in multiplayer games was "thoughtless consuming of precious and non-trivially difficult to renew resources ohter players need". And he even got to keep his obscenely good food spoilage tolerance perk.

15 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

And yes you did need to play well. Those who didn't understand the perks mentioned at the main menu and continuously died as the character have not been able to take full use of WX perks. Maybe it's a more newbie friendly character now

Those people would probably die almost as much on any other character. When you learned the basics of gameplay, WX just became very briefly a bit more squishy to start.

[Mike23Ua]

Personally I don’t find a character that has no sense of progression to be fun, pre-rework WX78 all I needed was a Wicker to spam end is Nigh and then to go around eating all gears to be the most broken thing the game has ever had.

After the rework I can’t have every ability active all simultaneously at once and I instead have to pick and choose which circuits I want to use and for which situations..

Heres an example: you could use the Moggles circuit to run around with free infinite night vision + circuits for increased speed but if you do that.. your sanity drains faster making using a top hat still drain your sanity at dusk/night however if you remove your night vision or your speed circuits and replace those with the ones for Sanity: Then your sanity stops draining while wearing a top hat at Dusk/Night.

This is called making a choice- rather than having every perk all at once you choose the perk best suited for the situation.

it’s like playing an RPG with loot and gear you can equip for X purpose or Occasion.

So when it comes specifically to WX78 the changes done in the rework are a good kind of grind.

When it comes to other areas of the game such as building and fully upgrading a boat.. these can be seen as too Grindy- but more importantly Klei has officially announced there is a planned update coming at a later time where boat crafting costs will be changed during that appropriate update.

[LiamAshvinn001]

On 5/9/2022 at 8:46 PM, ZombieDupe said:

Realizing how much is gated from before with the sheer lack of modules you can actually install, it's frustrating to say that I don't ever want to play as this character again. But why? Why nerf him to this point? He didn't need nerfing! Neither did Wickerbottom, but now 2 of her books are basically useless! Wolfgang although has lost the general speed boost has stayed about the same in overall utility in the end.

But you know who's never getting a nerf? Wanda! Arguably the most powerful character in the entire game since she was introduced. Not a huge benefit early game, however the Alarming Clock very early on in and of itself is nothing to scoff at. And of course mid to late game she can just teleport to execute anything in her path even quicker. I don't expect characters to become on par with Wanda but at least really darn close! She is fun because of the game mechanics she has, WX was too until this massive nerf. I don't agree that the change was good with people who say it was, just because it introduced a somewhat interesting mechanic of modules. Being able to absolutely break 1 or 2 aspects of the game if you play well with a character is a massive part of what makes it fun to play as the character. Some may even argue that characters as powerful as Wortox are not all that useful long term, and this is a character that can periodically teleport, has an easy way to heal and gain hunger all in one! If you continue nerfing characters further on to this degree, I don't see what point there is to playing the game.

It's always lack of specific types of polish that really turn excellent gameplay mechanics into a grind even when you rework them and if the long grind in the game is set by design so we have to spend hundreds of hours to get anywhere continuously with no ways to make it faster, instead of you looking for ways to mitigate that as much as possible, then I don't think there's much respect left for me for Klei. Oxygen Not Included does things almost perfectly yet again we see grind halt in it, and at no point is taking out the grind of waiting for building a 20x20 setup mid to late game for you a priority (such as mech having suits for dupes that would allow them to carry much more and build faster). Some basic buildings like tempshift plates, insulated tiles and for some odd reason the critter feeder take forever for a duplicant to construct despite having high skill in doing so.

In DST in mid, late and even END game:

* Farming crops takes forever and you have to do way too much farming to get a decent yield (you removed Applied Horticulture, there are no automated ways to till or water crops, you can only have one fruitfly in the world and it's slow).

* Preparing for a boss takes forever because so many things have extremely low durability (why the hell do I need more than one ice staff for a full boss fight like Crab King in the first place? It's all so I have to grind to collect gems and other resources to craft it, there is no other reason).

* Getting some resources for fair bit of base construction takes forever (anything that requires boards is especially annoying to get through with the dozens, if not hundreds of trees you need to cut down, even if you just want to make a dozen chests to put stuff in as opposed to dropping garbage on the floor).

 

I would love to see you prove me wrong on this or you'll just end up proving me right. I don't want that, I don't think anyone would want that, but I have yet to see effort on this front being made. Or just keep the grind and taking more of what little fun is left out of your games. There's a reason neither of your most popular games ever get played to some level of conclusion by anyone particularly popular, and it isn't because these games are niche, it's because they are a massive grind to get through all the content. That's the reason why people who do stick with the games, have hundreds or thousands of hours in the game, not because of lots of engaging content that would actually take that long without it. Rarely anyone actually achieves the supposed ends of these games, and the fact is it is doable, you just have put way too massive of a slow and annoying time-sink into these things.

Many other games in similar genres to these don't take anywhere near as long to finish! Even rage games where losing hours of progress is extremely easy don't take this insanely long to finish! What's your excuse? It's not only that people may not want to spend so much time just to have a little fun, it's also that many people don't even have the time sink for it. If I've played for 200 hours in a game and I still have not completed pretty much everything there is to do and I can't do it extremely effectively at that point, maybe that's a bad sign of intentional grind like in "free to play" games, or just horrendously bad game design. You could very easily cut all the unnecessary grind like picking individual pieces of grass 10 hours into a single run. Making powerful characters is also one very key factor for this. This is how Wanda ends up being so powerful, and there's no way you don't know that, it's a character you unlock with in-game currency or buy outright.

The Lazy Forager for example still can't be refueled with nightmare fuel, despite the fact that pretty much everyone agrees that in every conceivable aspect it should be a thing, you know it would make a big difference, but you've done nothing with it for a very long time and I suspiciously wonder why.

WX's nerf is good because well its fun. The limits makes the player have to experiment with circuits. It doesn't really matter if its broken, as long as its fun. Is Wanda OP? Probably yeah. But is she fun and doesn't completely ruin the game? No so whats the point if shes too strong? She still have limitations and shes fun. The WX stats reset is really good. Now players have to think about their circuits choices.

[Lumine04]

7 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Why? Wanda can have all her watches and much more all at the same time. WX has to have cooldowns and can't slot anywhere near as much modules to reflect more of the old system. This nerf made it yet another basic "quirky" type character. There is no practical reason to choose it over others.

Not only can you not upgrade all that to what it was before now, but if you do try to approach that, you give up on any other potential perks. Because of all this, I enjoyed playing as WX when I could have a much higher overall capability, even if it's something later in the game. And yet Wanda has this. Why does Wanda get all the most powerful stuff but WX gets the L?.

Jazzy doesn't appear to have played as the character pre-rework all that much to make a fair assessment. I didn't see a  comparison video from him either. Also he usually plays on his own. If he played with just one more player he could see the true potential of WX.

You missed the point about WX. It's not that it's a grindy character to setup, it's that it doesn't reach anywhere near the pinackle of powerful use and fun and more simple gameplay as it did before, even if the mechanics were a little obscured and half of it was made most effective with the help of yet another character.

 

Hold on I gotta sip my expensive tea............alright so before anything, I have played WX for weeks both pre-rework and rework, as well as a family member who's played him since day one. However, I am only moderately experienced at the game overall and I cant wait to enjoy reading how wrong I might be. 

WX's rework got rid of his entire old system, only person who got treated in a similar fashion is Woflgang, and they are both well received. They went with a "Build your own robot" design, the circuits variety appealing to players who may worry and want one thing. You wanna know the problem with WX? He was bland, incredibly frickin bland, this changed that by creating a system much more interactive with unique mechanics no other character offers. Nobody can tell me that spawning in and rushing to eat 15 gears was fun, unique, and interesting. Not only that, but the circuits provide infinite costless bonuses that the "upgraded stats" never offered. Speaking of which, WX's ability to raise his stats pre-rework was pointless. 400hp? Well okay cool you can tank a longer without having to heal ALL THAT HEALTH BACK, plus Im sure the feeling of having so much hp loses its pazazz after a few minutes. These gear upgrades were limted to his stats which I personally did not care about meaning all thats left is eating spoiled food. 400hp, 200hun, 300san is cool (i guess??) But it doesnt compare to our options now. We can have permanent nightvision, a whooping 100% speed boost with accelerators and cane, electrifying damage for easier goat milk (thank god), he can be a portable fridge in summer or a heater in winter to keep thermal stones from ever breaking and food fresh, the new hunger circuits not only increase hunger but slow the drain of hunger by up to 60% like holy moly!! Plus he can naturally regenerate health!!!

Anyway, good point on Jazzy, I recommend Freddo Film's video that he compares. Its not in your favor though just a heads up.

Yes he can and he can do more. Im not gonna reiterate my second paragraph.

[HowlVoid]

4 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Reliance on Wickerbottom for overcharge was nothing compared to the overall nerf of the character that the module system introduced because of the small amount of available slots. Also early game you're forgetting one thing that WX could do even more effectively than it does now, which is ruins rushing. Same time you could rush ruins with current WX you could do it probably in half the time as old if you worked together with a Wickerbottom player. And I've stated before that synergies are what keeps players into a cooperative multiplayer mindset. What could have been done is giving more options for overcharge, so even if Wickerbottom's book may be the best way to do it, you would still have some other options to keep it active for longer, as was the case with this update, but when overcharge itself doesn't mean anything, that's not a fair comparison.

The reliance on Wicker was HUGE, wdym?

There's no guarantee that your friends want to be a wicker just to manage your overcharged, let alone random strangers on pubs.

Every character can ruins rush, the greatest power Wx-78 has in ruins rushing is managing his stats with gears, that hasn't changed.

Right out of spawn it takes far less time to get a speed circuit from a rabbit (and get a consistent 25% speed), than it did for Wicker to prepare the reeds, alchemy engine, and RNG red gem to prepare 'the end is nigh".

I agree that teamplay perks are cool, but it was more than that. I don't agree with putting all of your eggs in a single wicker basket. 

I've started getting my brother back in the game and we like to do Wx-78 + Wormwood combo. He makes better use of my bramble husk so team play perks are still there and some. Not everyone likes to play wicker, and no one has too feel forced to do so.

4 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

I hate a lot of the RNG in this game, but there are enough graves to save yourself the trouble vast majority of the time. You could even have one book for overcharge to then be overcharged again after you exit the ruins with many more gems. A little note as well, when people say WX is a selfish character, that all depends on the player. You can haul gems, ruins loot, wires and gears for everyone to use, just do anything faster and more effectively than anyone else, or take it all for yourself in some secluded part of the world. But by that metric the character isn't really selfish, you are.

Everyone can rush the ruins that isn't a perk exclusive to Wx-78. When I rush the ruins as Wormwood I can even bring up several star callers (living logs from greenthumb tab), which Wx-78 can't do as easily.

Not to mention that with his reduced aggro from clockworks ALONE his ruins rushing capabilities have SKYROCKETED. combine that with the night vision module and he can clean out most of the ruins in like 2 days without ever engaging in combat.

[Theukon-dos]

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Why? Wanda can have all her watches and much more all at the same time. WX has to have cooldowns and can't slot anywhere near as much modules to reflect more of the old system. This nerf made it yet another basic "quirky" type character. There is no practical reason to choose it over others.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

And yes you did need to play well. Those who didn't understand the perks mentioned at the main menu and continuously died as the character have not been able to take full use of WX perks. Maybe it's a more newbie friendly character now, but WX peaks the moment all module slots are full, which anyone can do and the results are abysmal.

1. Because Wanda's watches require a heavy investment. They're locked behind dark magic, and cost a lot of resources. Both in Thulecite chunks for *every* watch, and in Walrus Tusks. Meanwhile, WX only needed to dip down into the ruins to become a god among machines, and then if you had a wickerbottom on your team, you basically just won the game.

2. That's the whole point of a nerf.

3. You are *clearly* underestimating the WX rework here. While it is true that WX can't have everything all at once anymore, the variety of circuits at their disposal makes them *extremely* versatile. You can't plug in every circuit, but you know what they can still have?

>Free Speed Boost

>Infinite Light or Moggles

>High sanity and passive sanity regen

>High sanity aura

>Complete immunity to Winter and summer

>reduced hunger drain

>Passive HP regen

>Day 1 walking cane

>Retaliation damage and built-in electricity immunity.

WX can do a lot, and can be good at most situations you put them in. And more importantly, this system is just plain more fun than old WX. They where just a big ball of stats that had access to free speed and light, but only if playing with a specific other character.

 

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

The point is that's something that should happen early to mid game. I don't ever want this basic of a menial setup be the end all to it, it makes no sense for it to be this slow hundreds, thousands of days into the game. Stuff like this should always be possible to speed up massively at that point. If we had a sprinkler and Wickerbottom's old Applied Horticulture book back, you could turn it on to water the plants, then have the book read to get giant plants if everything was planted correctly. Then take a moment to harvest and replant if you want to. Spending all your time farming this late in the game shouldn't be a thing unless you are desperate and don't have the resources to do it for whatever reason.

Well, if you know what you're doing, than farming does speed up in the late game.

As you get more seeds, you can grow more crops at once, which means less work overall.

You get access to a variety of ways to speed up the act of tending crops. Rows of shellbells or a one-man band can quicken the process of talking to plants from minutes to mere seconds.

You also get more access to crops and fertilizers, which make it easier to grow Giant Crops.

And whilst Giant Crops do take more investment than non-giant crops, taking the extra effort will nearly triple your yield for barely any more time spent farming.

And Finally, once you progress far enough, you can get Bundling Wraps, which means no matter how big your harvest gets, you'll always be able to make use of it before it spoils.

So ultimately, you can get to the point where all you really have to do is have one big harvest, and then be completely satisfied on food for an entire year. Spend a few days in spring growing Dragonfruit and Toma Roots, and you've basically met your yearly quota for healing, hunger, and sanity.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

 

The module system kind of just doesn't work, at the very least if it's so restricted. It's more intricate to have the modules, but if you can't powerup later in the game to be an extremely useful and powerful character, then what use are you?

See paragraph 1

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Cutting dozens of trees early game shouldn't be a thing. You can dedicate someone to do it, but that should be a boost if anything. Double the yield and half the cost for boards for example could mitigate the insane amounts needed for anything decent for your camp. It's pointless grind at the moment, why do we have to do this? Bearger isn't an early game method though at all.

Honestly I kind of agree with this point. Though frankly I don't think it's quite as bad as you make it out to be. Realistically speaking, early game you don't really "Need" that much wood. You'd be looking to build a few key structures, namely an alchemy engine. The main sinks for Wood; Chests and flooring; are just optional. And the latter of which recently got buffed so you only need a quarter of the wood you needed previously. So while there isn't an "early-game" option to speed up wood collection, I'm not entirely sure that one's needed.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Grinding for bosses should not be a thing you have to do, again. Just kill them once and unless you lose an item from them there shouldn't be too much required incentive to fight them again. You can fight them for the vanity of it, but fighting them again and again for the sake of lots of loot is tedium.

Ehhhhh? I don't see the farm in having to fight bosses multiple times. The loot generally lasts long enough that you only have to do it once every year or two. The only boss that I think this is a genuine problem with is Moose/Goose. You get like 5 of them every spring, and because Weather Pains are so important for raid bosses you kind of have too go around and hunt them every year. Doesn't help that the fight's also boring as hell.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Farming is "easy" but slow, that's my point. Early to mid game sure, fine. But end game?

See Paragraph 2

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

I dread to think that Wickerbottom primarily will get nerfs, as if she wasn't nerfed enough with 2 books becoming effectively useless already. We need back original Horticulature book and WX needs some changing to make End is Nigh book have a decent use again. I can actually stand having WX charged by Wickerbottom every now and then to get good perks as opposed to being a useless pile of metal the entire time.

The End is Nigh was already useless. It just had an extremely specific use case when playing with another character. And Applied Horticulture only got "nerfed" to reflect the changes to the farming system. The same reason that Wormwood got buffed to reflect the new farming and fertilizer mechanics. 

There's no reason to belive that Wickerbottom will be nerfed. Even in the game's Hayday she was only considered one of "The Big Three" becuase of how well she could support Wolfgang and WX. Nowadays, not only have those two been nerfed, but all the character refreshes and new arrivals mean that she's... honestly pretty average, all things considered. Still has some good utility, but has aged well past her glory days.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

So if none else but Wickerbottom could potentially boost plants to make herself useful, creating the good old synergy between Wormwood and Wickerbottom pre-rework for farming, then neither should Wickerbottom have this perk. Just sit down and farm all day every day, can't even invent a sprinkler to automatically water plants either. That malbatross beak would be so much more useful if that's what you needed to build one of these. Even just one sprinkler covering 20 tiles for watering four 4x4 plantations would be excellent.

1. See Paragraph 2.

2. I don't think Wickerbottom should be a dedicated farming character TBH. It doesn't really make sense, and I'd rather see her other spells made more useful.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

None of that insane farming stuff should be a requirement for bosses I think because if you overcome them once with the amount of setup that is required to do so (which itself is also already too much because of how low durability everything is), you should reap the benefits continuously most of the time, along with other players. Not really a multiplayer-oriented game if it's a first-come-first-serve kind of deal with certain boss loot or you having to roll for it in the end and fight bosses all over again, not only for others but also possibly for yourself. The key factor being have to.

I do agree that boss drops not reflecting how many players there are is kind of annoying, but other than that, see paragraph 5

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Ah yes, cobblestones no longer require boards, really more of an end game benefit, while in reference to wood I was talking about early to mid game. Anything else that does require it really has stayed just as expensive. Way too many things in this game just require too many resources, like the endothermic firepit for example, taking up way too many rocks to build one. But most things that require wood and that you need to build several of are going to cost you lots of time and after about the 4th or 5th tree in a row when playing as most characters I want to go do something else, but nope, need that wood. Less costly boards (say 2 logs) and double the yield from trees would be excellent for that reason.

See Paragraph 4

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Enlightened crown shards are boss loot, so technically I did bring it up. Though it's nowhere near as useful as the crowns themselves, and plenty other loot like bee queen crowns and bone armors.\

Enlightened shards are definitly fair. But Bone Armor can be refueled, so I'm not sure what your point here is. 

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

I don't have ill will towards them generally, but at this point for many aforementioned reasons, at this point these problems appear to be suspiciously done on purpose. I think what's happened is that devs have accidentally found reasons why the game takes so long to get anywhere, realized it keeps people in the games much longer despite all the grind and then they have not only the playtime hours of other players as proof of it "being a very good game", there's more opportunity to get money from you with less effort and time on content on their part due to a variety of constraints. If that isn't evidently dubious behavior then that's concerning to say the least. If they really did care for the quality and enjoyment for more people, they would have cut down on a lot of what has already been mentioned here, number and drop chance adjustments for loot, cost and durability are basically one line of code to push into the next patch, not something that takes years to finally do, if ever.

 

Do you... even play survival games? Because everything you listed is pretty standard of the genera. Hell, I'd even say that DST is one of the more forgiving games on this front.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

 

 

It's especially suspicious when you consider that Wanda was always more powerful than WX from the start and yet WX was the one to get nerfed into the ground while Wanda gets a free pass. But it is more fun to play with powerful characters, why nerf them to the point of less useful outcome?

 

Ever heard of One Punch Man? Manga/Anime who's entire theme is "With Overwhelming Power comes overwhelming boredom"? Becuase that applies here. Wanda gets around this by just being extremely well designed. But WX had no such excuse. They where a boring design, boring to play. And while the refresh made them "Weaker" (debatable), it also made them several times more interesting to play.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

 

NONE of these perks can be stacked together besides like 2, maybe 3. Massive health pool for example means giving up on literally everything else. Before the rework, he could get 50% about as quickly with a Wickerbottom on the team for 20 or so days along with other perks on top of that, including better stats and permanent light, not to mention immunity to heat. Get your facts straight.

See Paragraph 1

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

The most backwards thinking I've had to read around here. The idea of replying instantaneously to every single post is actually worse, it sends out a message to others that you would rather not have a discussion, I did wait on purpose for more people to talk about it before seeing the replies. I can't believe people disagree about WX rework either. Maybe because they didn't play enough WX with overcharge before the rework to accurately compare. Nowhere is there mention of comparison here.

Has it occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, nerfs are a good thing sometimes? I swear every time you bring WX up your concerns arn't with the refresh itself, just that WX can't be as overpowered as they where pre-rework.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Reliance on Wickerbottom for overcharge was nothing compared to the overall nerf of the character that the module system introduced because of the small amount of available slots. Also early game you're forgetting one thing that WX could do even more effectively than it does now, which is ruins rushing. Same time you could rush ruins with current WX you could do it probably in half the time as old if you worked together with a Wickerbottom player. And I've stated before that synergies are what keeps players into a cooperative multiplayer mindset. What could have been done is giving more options for overcharge, so even if Wickerbottom's book may be the best way to do it, you would still have some other options to keep it active for longer, as was the case with this update, but when overcharge itself doesn't mean anything, that's not a fair comparison.

See paragraph 1, Paragraph 13, and Paragraph 15

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

I hate a lot of the RNG in this game, but there are enough graves to save yourself the trouble vast majority of the time. You could even have one book for overcharge to then be overcharged again after you exit the ruins with many more gems. A little note as well, when people say WX is a selfish character, that all depends on the player. You can haul gems, ruins loot, wires and gears for everyone to use, just do anything faster and more effectively than anyone else, or take it all for yourself in some secluded part of the world. But by that metric the character isn't really selfish, you are.

See, here's the thing. Any character could do that. It just happens that WX was particularly good at it. When people called WX a "Selfish" character, they're referring to how they take a lot of resources, but don't offer anything directly in return.

Wortox isn't a selfish character. His souls are cheap and can heal the entire team.

Warly isn't a selfish character, while only he can use his crock pot, anyone can eat the foods he makes and benefit from them.

WX was a selfish character. They ate up all the party's gears and the only thing they got in return was a character who was slightly better at doing things any other character could do.

While you could still argue that WX is "Selfish", on account of none of their modules being useful for allies (except the chorusbox), they also take way less resources than they did previously, thus making them less of a burden. They also don't need to be playing with a specific character inorder too best make use of their overcharge. so that's nice.

Also, you claim that WX wasn't selfish because they could ruins rush well. But the thing about that is that reworked WX is even better at Ruins Rushing than old WX. You can very easily get infinite-use Moggles by day 3-4, which is dramatically more useful than Overcharge's light radius. Broken Rooks mean that you're always going to be able to get a speed module for the ruins. And reduced agression from Clockworks makes the whole ordeal safer in general. And to top it all off, you don't need to bully one of your friends into playing a character that they might not want to play for Overcharge.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Keep in mind you could upgrade all stats without overcharge before too, permanently. Not only can you not upgrade all that to what it was before now, but if you do try to approach that, you give up on any other potential perks. Because of all this, I enjoyed playing as WX when I could have a much higher overall capability, even if it's something later in the game. And yet Wanda has this. Why does Wanda get all the most powerful stuff but WX gets the L?

See Paragraph 13.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

And the versatility is kind of a lie, a carrot on a stick because of the small number of slots you get in the first place.

But you can swap out modules at any time. Winter's over so you don't need the heating module anymore? swap in a hardy circuit and an electrification circuit to use the weather to your advantage.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

There is so much wrong and incorrect information and assumptions here, it would make this long post twice as long. Maybe I will make a separate reply later. But I can tell you I can beat the game just fine and probably have payed it more and for longer than you given what the details of this post reveal.

No no no. Elaborate on that. I got a lot of free time on my hands.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Jazzy doesn't appear to have played as the character pre-rework all that much to make a fair assessment. I didn't see a  comparison video from him either. Also he usually plays on his own. If he played with just one more player he could see the true potential of WX.

My brother in Christ half his streams are on a public(ish) server. And frankly, I'd me more inclined to trust someone who practically makes a living off of playing the game than someone who's arguing against... literally the entire forums to claim that "the WX rework was bad, actually".

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Yeah, and that's the problem that invalidates arguments coming from people who only see it this far for balancing. Playing a character and liking their perks, then never trying out other characters as detailed by others who know how powerful specific characters can get shows to me that ignorance is how a lot of these comparisons are being made and why people stick to other, less powerful characters. Even if told, you won't switch because you got attached to whatever little use the character you picked near the start gave you and decided to keep it as a crutch, holding you back from getting better at the game.

Ok then. Do YOU play all the characters regularly? or do you only play WX and are now upset that you need a new high horse to ride on?

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

When someone who knows what they are talking about because they had the experience you did not to reflect on, there aren't all that many points you can bring forward that would make your points more valid. Learn the game more broadly first maybe.

As someone who had played WX in the past, my main takeaway from this sentance is that you're biased. Well it was pretty obvious before. But this just confirms it for me. 

So here's a better question for you. Would you rather take advice on global warming from scientists who have been studying the effects of fossil fuels for five years? Or the head of an oil company who's been profiting off of fossil fuels for the last 50 years? because frankly, that's what you sound like.

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

So you say you don't agree with my assessment on grind, but then proceed to agree with pretty much my exact points about grind in this game, hmm...

See paragraph 12

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

You missed the point about WX. It's not that it's a grindy character to setup, it's that it doesn't reach anywhere near the pinackle of powerful use and fun and more simple gameplay as it did before, even if the mechanics were a little obscured and half of it was made most effective with the help of yet another character.

See paragraphs 1, 13, and 15

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Or, hear me out, make all chest storage double the size or something, including the cut wood cost of boards and more wood from trees. We have a ton of garbage to store late game if you've ever played on a pub for a long period of time, tools especially.

Yeah, sure. Whatever.

[Mysterious box]

15 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

she has a completely unique downside that fundamentally changes how you play.

I can't really agree here her downside doesn't really change how you play in a negative way her playstyle gives alot of safety in her day to day having a easier kiting window when fighting. The changes you get on her are to her advantage rather than disadvantage she doesn't waste as much time as other characters on things like health and sanity. Yea she can't tank too much but unless your playing wigfrid you probably burning far too much resources trying to do that anyway I personally don't see Wanda as perfectly designed as her upsides outshine her downsides too severely but I don't really care if she's nerfed.

[Theukon-dos]

57 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I can't really agree here her downside doesn't really change how you play in a negative way her playstyle gives alot of safety in her day to day having a easier kiting window when fighting. The changes you get on her are to her advantage rather than disadvantage she doesn't waste as much time as other characters on things like health and sanity. Yea she can't tank too much but unless your playing wigfrid you probably burning far too much resources trying to do that anyway I personally don't see Wanda as perfectly designed as her upsides outshine her downsides too severely but I don't really care if she's nerfed.

She has extremely limited healing, with her only way to heal being a mere 20 HP equivelent that doesn't stack and is on a 2 minute cooldown. And on top of that, her getting benefits with old age means that you're going to constantly be teetering on the edge of death with no easy way to quickly get back from that.