Approach and balancing looks awful for WX rework

[ZombieDupe]

You only get 6 slots which sounds like a lot until you realize how many slots some of the modules take and the original simple overcharge perks are now split between putting upgrades in and taking them out. Putting them back in will also take a while as you wait for them to recharge. The character that was above all the fastest in is now handicapped in other additional areas it excelled in by requiring you to wait to swap slots. Think a better approach would have been to have the upgrade slots something you can upgrade with components like doodads, wires or gears from say 3 to 9 for example instead of it being a time sink every time you unplug the circuit and every upgrade module being capped to one instead of stacking 2 or 3 or more of the same module so you can build however you best like to play as opposed to slotting the same thing and rolling with that. It would mean you would only need 1 speed module to get max speed and then you can use the other slots to upgrade something else, which would be more akin to the old method where WX got multiple very powerful things from overcharge (cold immunity, night immunity with light radius and massive speed boost) while giving you options to mix and match depending on the season or situation without having to waste time plugging and unplugging things.

And at this point why wouldn't I just speed boost to max and never bother with the system again? Speed is the main reason I played as WX but now you suggest I should sacrifice some of it for cold immunity or night vision?! Not to mention the slots have durability to worry about. Can't but think WX got overall a massive nerf from the previous abilities that could all be active at once.

And water now doesn't directly damage WX? Why? I was really expecting wetness to really pack a punch on health directly even more instead of it being almost negligible, now it's even more so besides very specific circumstances. Needless to say I don't like this balancing, I don't see playing as this character anywhere near as much unless module slots were increased or upgradable to higher amounts, modules capped to 1 of each type and some modules being balanced accordingly, like the single speed boost module being as powerful as 3 of them combined right now.

It was fun to play as WX as it was, module concept sounds fun but this is a terrible execution of them in my opinion.

[DaZoul]

Disagree. Now I can get speed, heat, light or whatever I want almost whenever I want (getting more ways to charge oneself is still necessary but that's besides the point). With old WX, if I wanted all those cool things you mentioned, I had no choice but to get a slave Wickerbottom, which is just bad. No other way to get system overload, I heard there was one with the moslings, but it got patched. And I won't be struck by lightning, because I'm wearing an eyebrella to avoid wetness, and I have a lightning rod, because I don't want my base to burn to the ground. Even if I got hit by lightning once, cool I have cool perks for a single day, hooray. I repeat, the only way that ability of his was ever good, is with a Wickerbottom, and not only is that situational, many people, such as myself, play alone, so an entire big mechanic of the character is basically non-existent. New WX is infinitely better and way more fun in my opinion already, but yes, I would like at least 1 extra slot to make it even more fun.

[ZombieDupe]

1 hour ago, DaZoul said:

Disagree. Now I can get speed, heat, light or whatever I want almost whenever I want (getting more ways to charge oneself is still necessary but that's besides the point). With old WX, if I wanted all those cool things you mentioned, I had no choice but to get a slave Wickerbottom, which is just bad. No other way to get system overload, I heard there was one with the moslings, but it got patched. And I won't be struck by lightning, because I'm wearing an eyebrella to avoid wetness, and I have a lightning rod, because I don't want my base to burn to the ground. Even if I got hit by lightning once, cool I have cool perks for a single day, hooray. I repeat, the only way that ability of his was ever good, is with a Wickerbottom, and not only is that situational, many people, such as myself, play alone, so an entire big mechanic of the character is basically non-existent. New WX is infinitely better and way more fun in my opinion already, but yes, I would like at least 1 extra slot to make it even more fun.

I would much prefer having a Wickerbottom help me get all those things for 20 days than single things that I have to continually manage. Plugging and playing sounds fun but when the restrictions are this awful where is the fun in this? The game is meant for multiplayer, there was a synergy going on with the Wickerbottom's book, you are supposed to work together. Now that synergy doesn't even sound like worth the trouble and the End is Nigh book kind of sucks now.

And this synergy stuff is what I would like to see more of instead of secluded players playing on their own and doing better, when there has been no need for other player help it has perpetuated a hostile environment between players who know the game and those who are playing for the first time. This is just going to exacerbate the problem. We need ways to make players work together instead of the other way round. Playing on your own should be secondary.

[DaZoul]

Just now, ZombieDupe said:

I would much prefer having a Wickerbottom help me get all those things for 20 days than single things. There game is meant for multiplayer, there was a synergy going on with the Wickerbottom's book, you are supposed to work together. Now that synergy doesn't even sound like worth the trouble and the End is Nigh book kind of sucks now.

And that synergy, which could only be triggered by a Wickerbottom who cared enough was supposed to be a core mechanic for the character. System overload was WX's most powerful perk (other than gears as an excellent food source for lategame/ruins) and it was locked behind a different character.

I agree that characters should have more synergies that are triggered by other characters, Wurt being able to read Wickerbottom's books is still one of my favorite little details, but I do think that these synergies should remain just that. Little perks, perhaps lore related, that could come in handy. I would even be okay with them being bigger upsides, but certainly not the main power of a character.

As for the End is Nigh! being useless, I agree that that's a problem, I'm hoping Wickerbottom's rework will do something about it.

And about players not working together; I don't really play on pubs that often, but when I do, I usually do see people work together very nicely, maybe you just had unlucky experiences or something, I dunno.

Finally, playing alone should not be secondary. I'm sure there are people out there who just can't play on pubs because of bad internet or just simply preferring to play on their own server, like I do. Whatever the case, there are many solo players, and they should also always be thought of. I don't mean "remove the lazy deserter and the cartographer's desk" but to at least make bigger mechanics available to solo players (this kind of connects to the long standing problem of raid bosses with their Mariana deep pools of hp).

[Mike23Ua]

13 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

I would much prefer having a Wickerbottom help me get all those things for 20 days than single things that I have to continually manage. Plugging and playing sounds fun but when the restrictions are this awful where is the fun in this? The game is meant for multiplayer, there was a synergy going on with the Wickerbottom's book, you are supposed to work together. Now that synergy doesn't even sound like worth the trouble and the End is Nigh book kind of sucks now.

And this synergy stuff is what I would like to see more of instead of secluded players playing on their own and doing better, when there has been no need for other player help it has perpetuated a hostile environment between players who know the game and those who are playing for the first time. This is just going to exacerbate the problem. We need ways to make players work together instead of the other way round. Playing on your own should be secondary.

I think your over exaggerating/ underestimating Klei’s creativity.

Winona could get a upgrade that turns WX into a walking Ice-Flingo-Matic.. and you instantly got team synergy back.

[Mysterious box]

24 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

I would much prefer having a Wickerbottom help me get all those things for 20 days than single things that I have to continually manage. Plugging and playing sounds fun but when the restrictions are this awful where is the fun in this? The game is meant for multiplayer, there was a synergy going on with the Wickerbottom's book, you are supposed to work together. Now that synergy doesn't even sound like worth the trouble and the End is Nigh book kind of sucks now.

And this synergy stuff is what I would like to see more of instead of secluded players playing on their own and doing better, when there has been no need for other player help it has perpetuated a hostile environment between players who know the game and those who are playing for the first time. This is just going to exacerbate the problem. We need ways to make players work together instead of the other way round. Playing on your own should be secondary.

I mean they added even more synergy overall wicker's book can fill his meter and winona's generator becomes charge stations that can be placed across the world turning them into charging stations for wx so long as you have nitre or gems.

10 minutes ago, DaZoul said:

agree that characters should have more synergies that are triggered by other characters, Wurt being able to read Wickerbottom's books is still one of my favorite little details, but I do think that these synergies should remain just that. Little perks, perhaps lore related, that could come in handy. I would even be okay with them being bigger upsides, but certainly not the main power of a character.

Speaking of this I love that they improved the Wurt wicker synergy since Wurt now not only mass produces spots, and seeds but reeds as well without needing to stay at the swamp.

[DaZoul]

Spoiler

I'm gonna be gone for a short while now so if any of you respond I won't be able to further respond for about an hour or so

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

end is night can still be used to recharge wx, or im missing something?

[reallychina]

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

It was fun to play as WX as it was, module concept sounds fun but this is a terrible execution of them in my opinion.

That's what i've been saying. Great concept, bad execution so far.

Most modules are underwhelming and only replace an existing item in the game, there is no special item or skill that makes wx valuable. It's only QOL, except speed which is good. So you end up with 3x speed and that's it.

[SinancoTheBest]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

end is night can still be used to recharge wx, or im missing something?

Recharge his electric slots- yes. And that is useful with making WX instantly ready for action again after changing his sockets. But I think the OP is complaining about how WX can't use the old overcharge effect with it, making both the book not so useful anymore and WX' height of power lower than before.

I think the customization and balancing WX down from its previous zenith while making him easily use good parts of that power is great design. I have some change suggestions like making electric slots 7 and increasing night vision to 5 slots but otherwise its a solid rework. The only problem is there arent any actual downsides at all. I agree with the OP that wetness damage should be ramped up and affect WX at all times.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

15 minutes ago, SinancoTheBest said:

and WX' height of power lower than before

which is good tbh x)

[goblinball]

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

every upgrade module being capped to one instead of stacking 2 or 3 or more of the same module so you can build however you best like to play as opposed to slotting the same thing and rolling with that

This seems very contradictory. What if I want to use 3 health circuits or speed circuits? Now I cannot “build however you best like to play as”. Limiting people’s options is the polar opposite of letting them choose their circuits as they please.

 

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

And at this point why wouldn't I just speed boost to max and never bother with the system again?

Because the other circuits have benefits too????

[Mr Giggio]

Heres the thing

Its day 4. You just by yourself are able to  have a walkin cane   and infinite moogles, without any switch.

Mo more wickerbottom support,

No more situational overcharge

And yes, 1-2 extra sockets could be a good thing, but not more than that,  

HOWEVER,

I am pretty happy the way Wx is now. This rework is polished. And if u have moogles already u can have like, weather resist + health tier 1, or whatev u choose. Its versatile, and its fun cuz of that, the choices instead being a ridiculous i-have-all.

Plus, his perk about not bein a picky eater still there and gears are solid as well. This rework is a cheff's kiss.

[00petar00]

It is obvious that he has been nerfed for group play when you had Wickerbottom but as @DaZoul said main character strengths shouldn't be reliant on other characters.

The rework is good and going in the right direction making WX-78 be more versatile and unique,it just feels like he needs a few more circult slots and he will be perfect but even in his current state he is great to play as and has strong abilities.

[sudoku]

I cant tell you how many times in the past id join a pub as WX, see a Wickerbottom join the server, get super excited, rush ingrediants for a shadow manipulator, the end is nigh, and a rain hat, and then proceed to cry when the Wicker either ignored my pleas for help or left the server.

Character synergy is great but old WX was more closer to character dependence which is not fun when there is no cooperartion. The ease at which you can now upgrade yourself for whatever perks you want is much better and weaker stats i think is a fair trade-off.

[Seero]

2 hours ago, MrSoratori said:

Heres the thing

Its day 4. You just by yourself are able to  have a walkin cane   and infinite moogles, without any switch.

Mo more wickerbottom support,

No more situational overcharge

And yes, 1-2 extra sockets could be a good thing, but not more than that,  

HOWEVER,

I am pretty happy the way Wx is now. This rework is polished. And if u have moogles already u can have like, weather resist + health tier 1, or whatev u choose. Its versatile, and its fun cuz of that, the choices instead being a ridiculous i-have-all.

Plus, his perk about not bein a picky eater still there and gears are solid as well. This rework is a cheff's kiss.

How did you even scan the mobs for this? I wasn't able to when I tried

And tbh these are extremely good perks however, I think we should have more circuit variety while I don't think he should be nerfed, I think he should have more

 

[Mr Giggio]

14 minutes ago, Seero said:

How did you even scan the mobs for this?

Here some tips buddy:

1- rabits sleeps at night so just catch one with a trap and carry it with u  untill night. when u leave it on the floor use Jimmy to scan after the sleep animation and u r good to go from that. Day 1.

2 - rooks always are way too noisy and messy but when it goes far away from its spot it just turn back and jump back towards its default postiion. Aggro it this far away and when it starts to come back just keep ur body in front of it while Jimmy do its job.

3 - moles are dumb just put Jimmy and a flint on the floor and after the mole eats the flint hammer its head. the time while the mole is upside down is enough if u timmed it right.

4 - In the mid game u can always use a ice staff to keep the mobs steady.

Plus, the butterfly one. Just run in circles while jimmy is scanning. u doesnt even need speed boost so u can literally do it right  after spawn.

[Baark0]

5 hours ago, MrSoratori said:

Heres the thing

Its day 4. You just by yourself are able to  have a walkin cane   and infinite moogles, without any switch.

Mo more wickerbottom support,

No more situational overcharge

And yes, 1-2 extra sockets could be a good thing, but not more than that,  

HOWEVER,

I am pretty happy the way Wx is now. This rework is polished. And if u have moogles already u can have like, weather resist + health tier 1, or whatev u choose. Its versatile, and its fun cuz of that, the choices instead being a ridiculous i-have-all.

Plus, his perk about not bein a picky eater still there and gears are solid as well. This rework is a cheff's kiss.

Did this once, felt really cool getting infinite moggles day 1 and locating ruins for a rook to get speed augment by day 4, died to ag cause i didnt bring healing but it was fun nontheless

[blacknight7890]

3 hours ago, MrSoratori said:

2 - rooks always are way too noisy and messy but when it goes far away from its spot it just turn back and jump back towards its default postiion. Aggro it this far away and when it starts to come back just keep ur body in front of it while Jimmy do its job.

with wx's lower aggro range for the clockwork fellows, you can stand on the edge of jimmy's area and scan them without drawing aggro. also, from what I have personally seen, it seems like you don't need to scan them all in one go, you can have small breaks between it. of course, I don't really know the exact mechanics of the scan, so take that with a grain of salt.

[reallychina]

7 hours ago, MrSoratori said:

Heres the thing

Its day 4. You just by yourself are able to  have a walkin cane   and infinite moogles, without any switch.

Mo more wickerbottom support,

No more situational overcharge

And yes, 1-2 extra sockets could be a good thing, but not more than that,  

HOWEVER,

I am pretty happy the way Wx is now. This rework is polished. And if u have moogles already u can have like, weather resist + health tier 1, or whatev u choose. Its versatile, and its fun cuz of that, the choices instead being a ridiculous i-have-all.

Plus, his perk about not bein a picky eater still there and gears are solid as well. This rework is a cheff's kiss.

You can have moggles by day 4 anyway. Maybe its not day 4, maybe its day 6, but its not something special. You also dont need moggles for ruins, let alone infinite ones. Its a nice thing to have, but you can hotswap them so you dont waste their durability.

 

Then you can get thul club by day 10 on average with any char, so theres your speed.

 

Bottom line, any module wx has except reflect damage  is an item already present in the game and easy to acquire. 

 

Except speed modules, his perks are QOL at best, nothing special about them, whereas most other characters have some unique power and can unlock new mechanics

[00petar00]

24 minutes ago, reallychina said:

You can have moggles by day 4 anyway. Maybe its not day 4, maybe its day 6, but its not something special. You also dont need moggles for ruins, let alone infinite ones. Its a nice thing to have, but you can hotswap them so you dont waste their durability.

 

Then you can get thul club by day 10 on average with any char, so theres your speed.

 

Bottom line, any module wx has except reflect damage  is an item already present in the game and easy to acquire. 

 

Except speed modules, his perks are QOL at best, nothing special about them, whereas most other characters have some unique power and can unlock new mechanics

Not having to care about light permanently and having full vision, i don't see how this is not a big deal, you can get moggles on your own and swap them on and off to see further for a second and preserve durability but it is annoying to micro manage and takes space.

Celestial Champion is literally the hardest boss to get to because of his quest line and he is the only one that gives something that can somewhat compare to WX-78 but he is still better since it doesn't turn off whenever his sanity is low, while that damage isn't that big of a difference on the crown.

Thulecite club has 10% movement speed while his acceleration 2.0 circuit gives 25% while taking only 2 of his circuit slots, plus any speed item you get, he can also obtain and he will always have his circuit so that means he'll always have that much more speed compared to you.

I'd say he's probably one of the better characters this update didn't change much, while he was nerfed he doesn't rely on anyone else for his powerups and the circuits are interesting.

[ZeRoboButler]

5 hours ago, Seero said:

And tbh these are extremely good perks however, I think we should have more circuit variety while I don't think he should be nerfed, I think he should have more

 

I for one second the notion of more modules although, I am not too sure what would be a good addition...

[reallychina]

34 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Not having to care about light permanently and having full vision, i don't see how this is not a big deal, you can get moggles on your own and swap them on and off to see further for a second and preserve durability but it is annoying to micro manage and takes space.

Celestial Champion is literally the hardest boss to get to because of his quest line and he is the only one that gives something that can somewhat compare to WX-78 but he is still better since it doesn't turn off whenever his sanity is low, while that damage isn't that big of a difference on the crown.

Thulecite club has 10% movement speed while his acceleration 2.0 circuit gives 25% while taking only 2 of his circuit slots, plus any speed item you get, he can also obtain and he will always have his circuit so that means he'll always have that much more speed compared to you.

I'd say he's probably one of the better characters this update didn't change much, while he was nerfed he doesn't rely on anyone else for his powerups and the circuits are interesting.

The point was that his perks are QOL and you already have equivalents. There's nothing special about wx except his ability to mine ruins undisturbed by clockworks.

You have thulecite day 10, you can have lazy explorer around day 10 too at AG and you have a cane anyway by day 20 something. Yes, wx can have even more speed than you but that's it. That's his thing (and mining ruins). 

 

Anything else that he does... there's already items for it.

 

WX at this point doesn't add anything to a team and does not have solo capabilities either.

[Frogzard]

37 minutes ago, reallychina said:

The point was that his perks are QOL and you already have equivalents. There's nothing special about wx except his ability to mine ruins undisturbed by clockworks.

You have thulecite day 10, you can have lazy explorer around day 10 too at AG and you have a cane anyway by day 20 something. Yes, wx can have even more speed than you but that's it. That's his thing (and mining ruins). 

 

Anything else that he does... there's already items for it.

 

WX at this point doesn't add anything to a team and does not have solo capabilities either.

I agree that they could've been more creative with some of the circuits, but I think there's something important you're overlooking. When you say "wx can have even more speed than you but that's it. That's his thing", you're literally ignoring all of his other circuits. His "thing" is not walking faster than you, it's the ability to choose from an array of buffs as fits the situation. Having a speed boost alone isn't special, but being able to choose from other buffs on top of it is special and something that no other character can do. This is a great niche to have for WX because it's fitting for his robotic nature (after all, it's not like humans can just plug in new flesh components to alter themselves.) Again, I absolutely 100% support the inclusion of more circuits that aren't just stat increases or regens, but all of your posts are giving me the impression that you think this rework amounts to nothing more than a walking cane and less clockwork aggro. Even if that was the case, you're still ignoring the fact that he gets that speed bonus without having to take up a hand slot, much earlier than every other character (unless AG drops the lazy explorer, but even then that's RNG and a boon that's not accessible to less experienced players.)

As for how much he adds to a team, I don't think every character has to have the same amount of team play. I think it's OK for some characters to offer less than others, and considering WX's disdain for the so-called fleshlings, it's more than fitting for him to have almost no teamplay.

Also, this is a little off topic, but please please stop using the word QOL to describe his perks. It annoys me to no end. These perks are anything but QOL.

 

 

[leo920101]

12 hours ago, MrSoratori said:

Its day 4. You just by yourself are able to  have a walkin cane   and infinite moogles, without any switch.

the original overload gives WX 50% speed bonus and that can be reached on day 1 or 2, in a multi-players game