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WX-78 Refresh Beta Open!


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1 minute ago, Dwasint said:

ah it was reduced to 20% still a big downside, also im talking purely about on of wormwoods core features blooming, being able to be reproduced on wx but better as you get 5% more speed and a sanity aura

that is just a combination that doesnt even cover all wormwood's perks

1 minute ago, Dwasint said:

Also i barely play wormwood because i think he is poorly designed and creates a gameplay loop of just standing around being a base boy on servers with people

is your choice to do that, some users on this forum can tell you how little i farm as him. His perks are good outside of farm plots

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Honestly going off topic here but i really want wormwood to get a mini rework that makes him still able to do his current job but is less reliant on being in base at all times. It could be as simple as letting wormwood craft little plant boys to tend to crops around its seed spawn or something aswell as slowing plant rot or something just so wormwood can enjoy life on servers

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

that is just a combination that doesnt even cover all wormwood's perks

is your choice to do that, some users on this forum can tell you how little i farm as him. His perks are good outside of farm plots

outside of farming wormwood is very lack luster compared to other characters, his only 2 big defining factors are living logs and speed, one of which wx does better already. His overheating protection is also just copyable by wx meaning wormwood really only has 1 thing that wx can't do which is make living logs

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1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

Having to go to the ruins to scan a rook isn't exactly hard. You can do that as soon as you get some moggles is you want to be safe. From there on enjoy a permanent speed boost with no downsides.

Wormwood's blooming is also really inconsistent early game. You keep blooming and un-blooming the whole time. Getting enough jars to have enough speed growth formulas to stay in bloom takes a while. Even longer if you want jars for other things from pearl.

you only need 2 pearl's message to keep blooming all the time. If going to the ruins to scan a rook isnt hard, going into the moon island/pearl and get some kelp and 2 bottles isnt neither hard. You can use a very cheap potion, rotten fish and gloomer goop

is true that wx has no downside but removing speed or changing that perk won't change the fact that klei forgot to add a downside to them

also remember that wx having speed and moggles means that they isnt getting all the other perks that other characters have...

 

 

3 minutes ago, Dwasint said:

 

what ever, i dont share your opinion and seems like nothing will change mine or yours so there are our feedback

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9 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

you only need 2 pearl's message to keep blooming all the time. If going to the ruins to scan a rook isnt hard, going into the moon island/pearl and get some kelp and 2 bottles isnt neither hard. You can use a very cheap potion, rotten fish and gloomer goop

Using rotten fish early is inconsistent, bloomer goop takes a full moon, sailing the ocean requires a boat. 

Quote

 

is true that wx has no downside but removing speed or changing that perk won't change the fact that klei forgot to add a downside to them

also remember that wx having speed and moggles means that they isnt getting all the other perks that other characters have...

 

 

Wormwood only has speed and a huge healing downside. Making darkswords only has the advantage of getting the log, fighting nightmares takes just as long as everyone else with a 1x dmg multiplier. Then they made logs obtainable in the grotto. They have been slowly making him less and less unique over time. 

You fail to see the problem, we can take a look at Wormwood's perks one by one and, yes, conclude that they're all good or have their uses. I made a guide last year utilizing as many perks as I could including lureplants to fight bee queen. The problem is when you take ALL of his core perks IMPROVE THEM and give them to another character. I have been asking, and asking, and asking for a bramble husk buff and Wx-78 gets an amazing single target reflect perk right out the gate? They pulled the rug right from under us, it's frustrating. 

Edited by HowlVoid
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Speed has always been a core feature of WX obviously and its only natural for it to remain that way and for WX to be the fastest survivor. But the addition of the music box circuit, however niche or jokey it is in practice, and the electrical thorns circuit just naturally invites a comparison with Wormwood. Imo the music box circuit was completely unwarranted.

Wx hates plants and everything organic why give them a farming perk? 
 

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

They have been slowly making him less and less unique over time. 

Exactly. Thats what it comes down to

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This update looks absolute awesome so far, however just having gears be a temporary consumable for WX seems like a missed opportunity. I’d be cool if either in trade WX could craft an “artificial” gear, or something, or if gears could give a permanent upgrade when used in an expensive crafting recipe, with an increasing price each time (I.e an extra slot for his upgrade meter). I say this should be expensive because this would be more of a later game upgrade, and so that WX players (which I guess we will all be soon) won’t go around stealing all the gears from all the other players at the beginning of the game, only for a temp upgrade (+ I’d imagine I’d be quite OP). 

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52 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

sure. Wx>wormwood because wx can have up to 3 weak perks

It's isn't just that man I don't know why you're so adamant about it.

I want that cool complexity in my favorite character. I want to have to choose between all these cool abilities and options in my favorite character. I want to have to optimize for a situation in my favorite character. Having depth and complexity that only seems to grow as the game progresses. Looking forward to the next update possibly adding something new to my kit, a new watch, a new spider, a new dumbbell, a new song? This isn't just about WX-78, it's about squandering Wormwood's potential.

These past few reworks have been so cool with all the gadgets and gizmos some characters have gotten. I bloom and that's it, I've reached my peak there's no room for true improvement, no depth, no large array of options. Its sad.

Edited by HowlVoid
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Sooo, maybe I'm missing something. But can someone explain to me how Wx's chorusbox oversteps on Wormwood?

Tending is something you generally do every once in a while, so I'm personally not gonna keep the chorusbox on me at all times, and thus it breaks quite quickly. Sure I can just keep it on, but now thats keeping a few slots out of other much more useful circuits. Shells can be a bit annoying to farm, and you specifically need the purple shells too.

And with all that, I can just... use a One-man band? Even as Wx-78, I'm going to continue using one man bands to tend, just one second of equipping it and an entire grove of plants have been tended too, not as large of a durability loss as chorusboxes are, and much more convenient since you don't have to pry off everything else.

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12 minutes ago, Hornete said:

Sooo, maybe I'm missing something. But can someone explain to me how Wx's chorusbox oversteps on Wormwood?

Tending is something you generally do every once in a while, so I'm personally not gonna keep the chorusbox on me at all times, and thus it breaks quite quickly. Sure I can just keep it on, but now thats keeping a few slots out of other much more useful circuits. Shells can be a bit annoying to farm, and you specifically need the purple shells too.

And with all that, I can just... use a One-man band? Even as Wx-78, I'm going to continue using one man bands to tend, just one second of equipping it and an entire grove of plants have been tended too, not as large of a durability loss as chorusboxes are, and much more convenient since you don't have to pry off everything else.

I don't think it's about that specifically. Even Wormwood has an easier time using a one man bad sometimes. Or you completely ignore farming like do.

For me it's just the final straw breaking the camel's back. Wormwood being denied a rework when the team could recreate him in a new and fun way that's more inline with the rework other survivors have gotten. Having him in a form that's more fitting to dst.

It's about some of his items not synergizing well with him and being mediocre. There being a better damage reflect in the game is specifically painful because that was one few things unique to him. There is nothing unique to wormwood except maybe saving two seconds to plant directly into the ground vs tilling. 

Wx-78 has no real downsides and can be at 25% speed permanently. It feels unfair, cause we're stuck like this, well for me anyways.

Edited by HowlVoid
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7 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I don't think it's about that specifically. Even Wormwood has an easier time using a one man bad sometimes. Or you completely ignore farming like do.

For me it's just the final straw breaking the camel's back. Wormwood being denied a rework when the team could recreate him in a new and fun way that's more inline with the rework other survivors have gotten. Having him in a form that's more fitting to dst.

It's about some of his items not synergizing well with him and being mediocre. There being a better damage reflect in the game is specifically painful because that was one few things unique to him. There is nothing unique to wormwood except maybe saving two seconds to plant directly into the ground vs tilling. 

Wx-78 has no real downsides and can be at 25% speed permanently. It feels unfair, cause we're stuck like this, well for me anyways.

I appreciate your response for giving me some insight into how you and others feel.

While I personally like Wormwood mostly where he is, I think he could use one or two more items in his plant tabs. With him being ported to DST and having the poison cure item removed(for obvious reasons) the tab feels quite empty, unsure what these one or two items could do for Wormy boi however.

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44 minutes ago, Pizza9117 said:

This update looks absolute awesome so far, however just having gears be a temporary consumable for WX seems like a missed opportunity. I’d be cool if either in trade WX could craft an “artificial” gear, or something, or if gears could give a permanent upgrade when used in an expensive crafting recipe, with an increasing price each time (I.e an extra slot for his upgrade meter). I say this should be expensive because this would be more of a later game upgrade, and so that WX players (which I guess we will all be soon) won’t go around stealing all the gears from all the other players at the beginning of the game, only for a temp upgrade (+ I’d imagine I’d be quite OP). 

 

Edit for the 1 person who sees this: I think the upgrades could also benefit from some more uniqueness in a way, and maybe some slight tweaks (I know I’m breaking new grounds right now by saying something in beta needs tweaks). So far the upgrades are great, but I don’t really see a purpose in getting the light up one where you can get the night vision one, besides for the purpose of protecting friends, which i can’t imagine many WX mains will do with this. Also I get that the music upgrade is just for fun, but I think It would be cooler if just granted a small ability. By this I mean just give it the ability of  a much weakened one man band or something like that, (as to not step on the territory of wormwood or a faction character)potentially working on more factions. And with each upgrade of it added, you can get more and more followers, or give those followers buffs. This wouldn’t be OP, and would give a use to it (albeit a niche use), and I could more realistically see a person use it. Furthermore, while the Stat upgrade items are definitely needed upgrades, I think more unique ones should be added. So far, from my perspective/ from the perspective of a schmuck who knows nothing about game design I think the upgrades are in a great spot as far as helping out other go, with the passive sanity and temp boosts. 

 

also if this update turns out to be wayyy to OP, then I think an interesting nerf would be a sanity drain for each thing WX has equipped.

 

++ moosegoose deserves an upgrade

Edited by Pizza9117
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14 minutes ago, Hornete said:

unsure what these one or two items could do for Wormy boi however.

i think a little sproutling that can do tasks like tending to crops or preventing crop rot would be a good item, make the little dude require to be fertilized or be near a blooming wormwood, this way he keeps his whole farming gimmick while allowing players who don't want to base sit to be able to do it ( i know this encroaches on the friendly fruit fly) or if you wanted to go full rework mode incorporate the fertilizer system into wormwood for some fun gimmicks i can't think of any that aren't bland off the top of my head though

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1 minute ago, Pizza9117 said:

I think more unique ones should be added

yes this, give him things that other characters don't have. Why not a rock crusher? turn rock into flint, log burner, spoiler, ice maker, magnetizer ( pulls items into 1 stack for easier pickup) etc

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22 hours ago, StevenM said:

 

  Hide contents
  • When Wurt wears the Seawreath or Garland, the sanity effects are flipped.

 

Wurt still suffers the -1.33 sanity from the Milkmade Hat which is basically a Seawreath with milk attached.

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3 hours ago, Dwasint said:

except double hunger drain, while you can make the gears once on wx slot the speed and aoe tending in aswell as 75 extra hp and be done with it oh yea not to mention being a walking glommer aswell

Being a walking glommer isn't exactly something worthy of note lol

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

It's isn't just that man I don't know why you're so adamant about it.

I want that cool complexity in my favorite character. I want to have to choose between all these cool abilities and options in my favorite character. I want to have to optimize for a situation in my favorite character. Having depth and complexity that only seems to grow as the game progresses. Looking forward to the next update possibly adding something new to my kit, a new watch, a new spider, a new dumbbell, a new song?

You could apply this to several other characters, like Wicker, Wilson, Winona, Maxwell, Wortox, and maybe even others. Wow yeah Wicker is cool, I want cool complexity for her, I want her to have all of these cool abilities that stem from her wealth of knowledge. And yet that's why she needs a refresh, because she doesn't have any of these things. Even Wormwood feels more complex than her. All Wicker really has is some unique items that she can use. And I mean hell, even an already-reworked character, Willow, has less to be proud of than Wormwood. Sure he isn't perfect, but there is so much worse.

Edited by Left 4 Sharkbai
Changed "glimmer" to glommer, because autocorrect sucks balls
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3 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

I don't think it's about that specifically. Even Wormwood has an easier time using a one man bad sometimes. Or you completely ignore farming like do.

For me it's just the final straw breaking the camel's back. Wormwood being denied a rework when the team could recreate him in a new and fun way that's more inline with the rework other survivors have gotten. Having him in a form that's more fitting to dst.

It's about some of his items not synergizing well with him and being mediocre. There being a better damage reflect in the game is specifically painful because that was one few things unique to him. There is nothing unique to wormwood except maybe saving two seconds to plant directly into the ground vs tilling. 

Wx-78 has no real downsides and can be at 25% speed permanently. It feels unfair, cause we're stuck like this, well for me anyways.

I agree with you. Wormwood is my favorite character, and I almost completely ignore farming. I don't really care WX can comfort plants like him now, its just annoying to see an already out-classed character have their toes stepped on further. I never cared for his farming neither did I ever find it all that impressive. What makes him appealing to me is his amazing character design, the ability to make living logs, his comfortable speed boost from bloom, and his healing methods. I know some people find his alternate forms of healing to be tedious, but as someone who is so used to just chugging healing foods on taking any kind of damage, it's somewhat nice to have to rely on non-perishable healing sources. Nothing sadder than watching your gourmet healing dish go bad. Salves last forever. And as for his speed boost, it feels like for one single character they realized how valuable speed is in this game and balanced it on him accordingly. It's difficult to maintain fully and requires constant resources. It's also not really turbo mode like WX, but he is definitely swift while blooming. I still believe wormwood is one of their best characters gameplay and balance wise... but yes, the gap between him and others is extreme when it comes to raw power. It can be lessened without making him overpowered or weakening his unique playstyle is the point I think most people miss though. WX now has better speed, better thorns, better weather resistances, better overtime healing, and a form of plant care. All that with a mostly non-consequential downside compared to worm's game changing one. I have a few ideas to bump him up a bit. I'll put them in a spoiler below. I do think he is in a good spot, aside from a few stupid tuning decisions and contradictions to his core design. The problems mainly fall on the other characters being way too powerful.

Spoiler

The first big problem I have with him... The cognitive dissonance he causes me! He respects and cares for nature, but... can you really do that in this game? You have to cut down trees and inevitably hurt plant-life in ways I don't think Wormwood would really ever do. I find it strange he's even willing to hold an axe. He should be given an alternate method of resource gathering that isn't harmful to plants. Hes supposed to be the friend of plants, but that relationship doesn't feel represented on either end. It could be cool if he could get grass, twigs, logs, etc in ways that don't kill or harm the plants, and also leaves the resources available to other players. If he is going to stay a plant loving, plant killer, at the very least let him plant berry bushes and grass tufts without having to fertilize.

And for smaller balance problems, I'd agree with most of the popular suggestions. Bramble vest is a joke even before WX's 90 thorn damage. Having the character with no easy way of healing force themselves to take damage for crummy bonus damage, is really stupid. It's body armor too (goodbye backpack) and has some of the crappiest durability in the game. Only use currently is increasing the life of your football helmets and gathering cactus. It should have its damaged increased, but unlike WX's it is AOE keep in mind. Durability for sure needs to be upped. Also please make it HD, gosh what an eyesore. The uncompromising mod made it fire automatically without requiring you to take damage, which I think was a great idea. Uncomp also added the snapdragon, a plant mob almost tailored for him to interact with in ways that are in character. Nothing like that in the game at the moment. 

Bloom should heal over time for sure. It ... just makes sense for a character who normally can't heal easily. I already said I think it's hard to maintain, and even with ample resources it usually is on and off, or at least not full bloom. Also, the bees who follow him around during this never truly become followers, and it ends up just being flavor more than an actual perk. They end up just getting in the way. Not sure if that was intentional.

Compost wrap recipe is manageable for sure, but I feel he should probably get more than one per craft. It's such an annoying recipe. You don't use it to heal, at least I don't, it's an early blooming agent.  I think the same can be said for his tooth trap, I barely use it. Just use default tooth traps. No reason they had to be lesser ones that can hurt you. If it gave more than one per craft, then maybe it could be worth self-harming a bit for. 

Wicker has a book specifically for growing plants but has no interaction with the plant character... It should heal Wormwood or accelerate his bloom. 

Also, I think he should be able to eat stale to spoiled foods with no penalty. Hes a plant, in fact, wouldn't it make sense if he got more nutrients out of it the more decomposed the food was? Even then, an extremely convenient perk like this would be limited due to him only really eating for hunger. Unlike the star of this thread. 

 

Edited by Crimson Chin
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59 minutes ago, Left 4 Sharkbai said:

Being a walking glommer isn't exactly something worthy of note lol

it is when its a direct buff in comparison to wormwood. Giving a sanity aura to everyone man not seem that good but it is still better than not having a sanity aura

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I love how a thread about WX78 became all about Wormwood, While Wormwoods “Perks” is, was, and always will be: “Plants are nice to him” it’s NOT the same thing as WX78’s “Clockworks Tolerate your presence but still murder you when you stand in their face too long”

Wormwood, much like Webber & also Wurt- With New Spider types & Merm Types Will gain deeper Gameplay the more plant type mobs get added into the game.

And THAT is Why Wormwood can’t have some amazing Rework your all wanting, Because… Wormwoods Perks should come Directly from being able to be friends with any and all future plant mobs.

Heres a Excellent Example of how to Buff Wormwood: When your friends anger a Birchnut Tree Guardian, WORMWOOD will be completely ignored by its attacks.. and can walk up to it and give it some fertilizer to calm it down and return it to a normal tree.

And as far as WX78’s speed perks go: Speed is a valuable (if not the most valuable..) perk to have in the game- so to get that permanently on WX is just.. insane, AND a slap in the face to Wolfgang players who had their speed straight up taken away completely.

WX’s speed boost should have probably been target of Nerf if I’m being honest about it.. Perhaps diminishing over time like a juiced up battery that starts running low on power so it performs weaker?

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3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wormwoods “Perks” is, was, and always will be: “Plants are nice to him”

Imagine ignoring all gameplay and saying "well the theming is different"

Edited by jan Mele
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1 minute ago, jan Mele said:

Imagine ignoring all gameplay and saying "well the theming is different"

I’m just going to assume you’ve never played any summoner class in any rpg game.. your strength isn’t in your own abilities… it’s in the things you summons abilities, and in Wormwoods case: If he could befriend say I don’t know for example- Palm Tree Guardians (I know they aren’t in the game.. that’s NOT the point..) but if he Could: Then he would have Ranged Coconut throwing attacks from befriending this Palm Tree Guardian.

This is Wormwoods core “Role” He isn’t a fighter.. he isn’t speedy Gonzales.. his role isn’t limited to tending a garden: He is Technically the Batman Villainess Poison Ivy: And it’s only Klei’s fault that currently this trait for him isn’t so great.

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3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And THAT is Why Wormwood can’t have some amazing Rework your all wanting, Because… Wormwoods Perks should come Directly from being able to be friends with any and all future plant mobs.

Leaving wormwood in a bad state then claiming but if they add more plant based mobs AND add interactions for wormwood he will be fine is cringe. Add to his existing kit with items that fit his theming. Also Wurt, Webber, and Wormwood are all the respective monster/ object they are friends with so it makes sense that wormwood gets buffs from fertilizers that he gives himself. Making a rework based around that concept should allow him more depth

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As a console player I don't think I can access the beta but I have done my research, as WX is one of my favourite characters, and I love the rework so far. The one thing I'd say is that I don't think there are enough later-game upgrades, most of these are pretty easy to get. It would be cool to have some better ones made at the ancient pseudoscience station or celestial alter. Good work Klei!

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1 hour ago, Left 4 Sharkbai said:

Being a walking glimmer isn't exactly something worthy of note lol

You could apply this to several other characters, like Wicker, Wilson, Winona, Maxwell, Wortox, and maybe even others. Wow yeah Wicker is cool, I want cool complexity for her, I want her to have all of these cool abilities that stem from her wealth of knowledge. And yet that's why she needs a refresh, because she doesn't have any of these things. Even Wormwood feels more complex than her. All Wicker really has is some unique items that she can use. And I mean hell, even an already-reworked character, Willow, has less to be proud of than Wormwood. Sure he isn't perfect, but there is so much worse.

This argument never makes any sense to me, why would I go out of my way for characters that aren't my main? No to mention a lot of my arguments would be weak because I don't know some of them very well.

On top of that it would hurt my credibility and everyone would think I'm just trying to find faults in characters after a certain amount.

I might not be a master of the character but It is my hope that after showing my dedication and understanding of Wormwood for over year, that perhaps my words carry some weight no matter how small. I won't be satisfied until I know I've given it my all and if nothing comes of it then that's that. Klei gives me this wonderful opportunity to feel like my voice matters so I will use my momentum for him and only him. So, no, I don't care if there are other characters that are worse off.

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