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The forums sometimes needs to cut the developers at Klei some slack. There's a lot of ways Klei handles situations differently from other studios that we end up taking for granted, and forget that what we say can demoralize an entire hardworking development studio. They don't hype, they don't do cash-grabs like Battle Passes, they provide many free updates and content on a constant basis, give free loyalty rewards and spool, increased the drop rate exponentially, and they even provide people an extra copy of the game just so you can play with a friend. One of the only sources of revenue they get comes from skin purchases and DST-game purchases as well. They earned next to nothing from the Forge/Gorge events but kept them going for awhile because people enjoyed them, and as far as I'm aware they ended up having to sell a majority stake to Tencent to get funding from a parent company (correct me if I'm wrong).

Gonna be honest, I felt pretty bad after seeing JoeW's message in the "Content Drought" poll thread and I kinda regret having been so thoughtless with what I had said about the updates being not-so impactful. The tone of their message sounded pretty frustrated, and maybe even a little hurt by the assumptions that were made about the work of the developers.

Klei gave away heirloom skin sets last Hallowed Nights and people simultaneously sold them on the market and bought them in bulk to unravel in mass, leading to people getting literally thousands of spool to weave any skins they wanted for the future. 15 dollars could get you 40,000 spool or much more, and that equates to roughly 29 Elegants, or around 19 complete character skin sets at their most expensive spool cost; and that's just 2,300 spool away from completely weaving the "Complete Costume Chest" in the store. Honestly I'm just as guilty too, since I did that as well because of how tempting it was; I had literally abused the one source of revenue they had and I got away with it, giving zero money in return for the skins I got. Instead of rolling back everyone's accounts to the beginning like many-many other companies would have done for the sake of profit, Klei was generous enough to wave their hands and basically say "Nah, it's fine. We understand we may lose profit out of this, and many of the new Hallowed Nights skin sets will be woven instead of bought, but we want players to do what makes them happy".

Fundamentally we have no right to even have an opinion on anything Klei does because we aren't a consistent-enough source of money. Hate Tencent all you want (I know I do), but their opinion is literally more valuable than ours by default because of money's sake, but Klei gives our opinions just as much courtesy and thought (even more so in many ways). We make demands for gameplay changes and services without being aware of the process that goes into development, or without the money to put where our mouth is, and they still listen. The people that call Klei lazy or uncaring about their playerbase when it came to the Wolfgang rework may have very well only payed 5 dollars in total, and Klei has zero obligation to even reconsider Wolfgang for (what was confirmed to be) a vocal minority, but they are now once again trying to do what they can to make those players happy. They don't try to make players happy for the sake of revenue, but because they want to. All of that, and stuff like "Rhymes with Play" takes time out of their busy schedule to address, but they still do it for everyone.

Not saying you can't criticize the game now and then, or ask for some more transparency on certain things, but just chill on them ok? They work hard so that everyone can have fun, and sometimes we just ask a lot.

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5 hours ago, Owlrust said:

The forums sometimes needs to cut the developers at Klei some slack. There's a lot of ways Klei handles situations differently from other studios that we end up taking for granted, and forget that what we say can demoralize an entire hardworking development studio. They don't hype, they don't do cash-grabs like Battle Passes, they provide many free updates and content on a constant basis, give free loyalty rewards and spool, increased the drop rate exponentially, and they even provide people an extra copy of the game just so you can play with a friend. One of the only sources of revenue they get comes from skin purchases and DST-game purchases as well. They earned next to nothing from the Forge/Gorge events but kept them going for awhile because people enjoyed them, and as far as I'm aware they ended up having to sell a majority stake to Tencent to get funding from a parent company (correct me if I'm wrong).

Gonna be honest, I felt pretty bad after seeing JoeW's message in the "Content Drought" poll thread and I kinda regret having been so thoughtless with what I had said about the updates being not-so impactful. The tone of their message sounded pretty frustrated, and maybe even a little hurt by the assumptions that were made about the work of the developers.

Klei gave away heirloom skin sets last Hallowed Nights and people simultaneously sold them on the market and bought them in bulk to unravel in mass, leading to people getting literally thousands of spool to weave any skins they wanted for the future. 15 dollars could get you 40,000 spool or much more, and that equates to roughly 29 Elegants, or around 19 complete character skin sets at their most expensive spool cost; and that's just 2,300 spool away from completely weaving the "Complete Costume Chest" in the store. Honestly I'm just as guilty too, since I did that as well because of how tempting it was; I had literally abused the one source of revenue they had and I got away with it, giving zero money in return for the skins I got. Instead of rolling back everyone's accounts to the beginning like many-many other companies would have done for the sake of profit, Klei was generous enough to wave their hands and basically say "Nah, it's fine. We understand we may lose profit out of this, and many of the new Hallowed Nights skin sets will be woven instead of bought, but we want players to do what makes them happy".

Fundamentally we have no right to even have an opinion on anything Klei does because we aren't a consistent-enough source of money. Hate Tencent all you want (I know I do), but their opinion is literally more valuable than ours by default because of money's sake, but Klei gives our opinions just as much courtesy and thought (even more so in many ways). We make demands for gameplay changes and services without being aware of the process that goes into development, or without the money to put where our mouth is, and they still listen. The people that call Klei lazy or uncaring about their playerbase when it came to the Wolfgang rework may have very well only payed 5 dollars in total, and Klei has zero obligation to even reconsider Wolfgang for (what was confirmed to be) a vocal minority, but they are now once again trying to do what they can to make those players happy. They don't try to make players happy for the sake of revenue, but because they want to. All of that, and stuff like "Rhymes with Play" takes time out of their busy schedule to address, but they still do it for everyone.

Not saying you can't criticize the game now and then, or ask for some more transparency on certain things, but just chill on them ok? They work hard so that everyone can have fun, and sometimes we just ask a lot.

Agree we should cut Klei some slack and we've been too hard on them, something I'm also guilty of it. Though I think people are entitled to their own opinions as long they dont make too much trouble with voicing it and not hurt anyone 

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7 hours ago, Owlrust said:

Gonna be honest, I felt pretty bad after seeing JoeW's message in the "Content Drought" poll thread and I kinda regret having been so thoughtless with what I had said about the updates being not-so impactful. The tone of their message sounded pretty frustrated, and maybe even a little hurt by the assumptions that were made about the work of the developers.

I don't think that thread is nearly as bad as you make it out to be.  Several people ahead of JoeW's post showed plenty of consideration for the qol's and continuous updates Klei has been doing, even countering that we're not in a content drought, that we're literally in the middle of a new event.  And yeah maybe the "year of the xxx" has become routine, but its still all new content.  idk how some of these companies are able to run nearly constant events and content updates like Klei has been doing this last bit.  Every few months there is something new to get excited over.

7 hours ago, Owlrust said:

The people that call Klei lazy or uncaring about their playerbase when it came to the Wolfgang rework may have very well only payed 5 dollars in total, and Klei has zero obligation to even reconsider Wolfgang for (what was confirmed to be) a vocal minority, but they are now once again trying to do what they can to make those players happy.

Not that it should matter, but I've purchased nearly every skin released by Klei for a while now.  While people were busy raveling Hallowed Nights skins, I still bought mine from the store.  Even during the silence following Wolfgang's release, where I felt hesitant because the rework was lazy and uncaring, and Klei had basically made it clear they intended to simply wash their hands and move on, I still bought the Fantasmical collection.  I know Klei puts a lot of work into this game, and I'm happy to support that work.  Its the perfect symbiosis between developer and consumer that the developer releases a product for which the consumer is happy to pay for, establishing a lasting business relationship where they both get to do what they want.

It was straight out of left field that Klei dealt Wolfgang straight nerfs like they did.  It was like a flash back to 4 years ago when Edgy Rick was trolling everyone about the "DST META" and Klei took the bait, line and sinker.  The "meta knight" analogy is so out of touch with reality, considering Wolfgang didn't have an especially high rate of play, and no one was "forced" to play him*  Especially considering the floor had been raised across all of the combat focused characters through their refreshes...  I don't take back a thing I said during that, and hopefully Klei can read my feedback and understand it for what it is.

*Like seriously, the whole speed running thing - there is only going to be 1 single way to play a game the fastest.  If you go watch speed runs, the only variance you'll see is between what is fastest, and what a player can reliable execute.  TAS speed runs will inevitably result in identical footage because when you are trimming things down for time there is a clear binary of "did it save time" yes|no.  Wolfgang dominating speed runs is completely irrelevant to his balance as a character in the game.  You don't have to speed run anything in DST.  tbh its only things like them nerfing fire farms that even puts pressure on people to play combat focused characters in the first place.

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Every time I want to play this game with some of my friends I have to buy a copy of this game for that friend, I try to do it when the game goes on sale on Xbox Live so at least then: I’m not WASTING too much Money. Out of every single person I’ve bought the game for only 2 of them actually play the game at all.. the others played it a few times then didn’t touch it again, and even though I bought the game for them so they would play my favorite game with me.. not even my own family living in the same house with me will play.

Klei can look at their records and see where gamertags within my actual family only log into the game when a limited time skin is available as a log in reward (because I log into their accounts to get the skins for them just incase someday they ever DO decide to play..)

You heavily underestimate how much console players have paid for the DS franchise, I did not get Hamlet/DST for free just for being in their Beta phase & I also don’t unlock Wormwood for free in DST if I buy Hamlet: Those are PC Exclusive perks & Klei is trying to be generous to their PC players. I paid roughly 7.99$ plus tax for Hamlet & that’s Without the free Wormwood bonus.

I pay 14.99$ or on sale 6.99$ for each copy of DST.

Console players also have to buy “Bolt Packs” if they do not have enough Spools/Klei Rewards to get the skins they want.

B24E96B9-4A63-4F3D-97F7-280A022E706B.thumb.png.145c2a9d0ee7dc1bf2ea5c849457e465.png

And we can’t “Cheat” the System like the Op admits to doing by stock piling skins to sale back for profit- in fact to a console player the only thing Rarity Value does for us on a skin: Is determine how many spools we get back from it should we choose to unravel it.

You thought I was joking when I said Console players pay MORE for a WORSE Experience with the game? Sadly I’m not..

And there’s still things like being unable to drag and drop meat over Gnarwail to tame them or drag and drop wood out into the water to distract cookie cutters, or drag and drop low durability tools into the ocean depths to get rid of them so our worlds don’t lag down with all the items we have just thrown aside to free up inventory slots.

I paid way more then 5$ for the DS/DST experience, and I expect Klei to deliver content to the best of their ability without over working or feeling too demanded to do stuff.

Plus they’re finishing up ALL of the reworks.. so they’ve already got a lot on their schedule before they can move on to whatever they got planned next.

I just hope somewhere along the way (preferably during one of the 6 QoL/Setting the stage updates this year) they’ll address 

A: Some tweaks to certain characters to flesh them out and make them better- Wolfgang, Wurt, Winona to name a few..

And B: a way to better handle the console support for the game so that we’re not feeling like we pay more for a worse experience. With the game releasing on Nintendo Switch sometime this year: The console platforms are in the spotlight right now and they need to have a little more love and attention put into them.

Cookie Cutters are quite possibly my least favorite mob they’ve added to the game.. and it makes me even more sad knowing that there’s an actual gameplay feature where you can drag and drop twigs and logs into the water so they will target those first over attacking your boat- A feature like this would go a long way in not having my boat torn to shreds in a few seconds when playing without other players.

When we complain: some of us complain within reason.. but it’s not our intent to discourage the Dev teams who bust their asses to deliver updates for us.

Let them take as long as they need to deliver amazing stuff, there’s no rush :) 

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15 hours ago, Owlrust said:

The people that call Klei lazy or uncaring about their playerbase when it came to the Wolfgang rework may have very well only payed 5 dollars in total, and Klei has zero obligation to even reconsider Wolfgang for (what was confirmed to be) a vocal minority

You had me with your whole post until you called out a certain group of people instead of just bringing up the consistent bad forumite behavior on these forums.

It really broke the whole "rally together everyone and be better" vibe I was feeling

Everyone can act like an ass sometimes it's more about respecting the developers "life" and "time" they aren't our work slaves I hope most understand that.

Some people really hate all the reworks, all the year of the x events, all of the small updates, that aren't LORE or CONTENT there are some really rude individuals that don't respect any of these attempts to improve upon their game they just want more "content" lol.

But Klei is "always" listening they may keep themselves distant but they've shown to care about players with their updates and will break the silence to ease the masses.

15 hours ago, Owlrust said:

Fundamentally we have no right to even have an opinion on anything Klei

Spoiler

luffy-one-piece.gif.fb1b66f57279029ad98ad087a0d5e662.gifI don't know why that statement sounds so sad to me...

Klei has been one of those companies that I remember really interacted with their players addressing ideas and concerns. They've always had their own vision for their future but were never afraid to see if their players made any valid points about their direction.

I still respect Klei heavily for all the effort they put forward for us I just wished they hinted more at what they were doing.

I remember back when don't starve was in beta and barely came out the devs were really out on the field collecting ideas and feedback to make the finishing touches feel great.

Although the scope for klei has gotten bigger since then, they can't keep track of everything at once and have far bigger things on their plate to deal with than before.

We're already too far gone from when don't starve was small enough and they had the time to sit down and chat with us.

Those moments may be far and fewer in between but Klei still clearly cares.

You just need to find the small joeW posts out in the forums addressing concerns to see they are still there.

Spoiler

Since the Wolfgang reworks was mentioned I'd like to say that the commotion was probably because of a lack of communication and a couple misunderstandings about klei's direction.

Not some vendetta against Klei lmao...

Klei asked for feedback on their rework and even gave a beta to test it out

Wolf was nerfed, speed was dropped causing some concerns among the players and so alot of "feedback" was formed.

When zark made a post about speed never returning all the speed related forums died and didn't come back.

By just one post mind you. Only one was needed to end it all.

But Klei kept silent about the Wolfgang feedback overall, taking into consideration other moments in time "Winona" "dropped storylines" "the ocean" the fire continued to rage on.

Klei never said to stop but the Wolfgang threads were getting closed anyways for being so boisterous with all kinds of people good and bad.

JoeW made a few posts about the issue being overblown and the Wolfgang players being a minority.

Which was most definitely true, but he also said that there has probably been a disconnect from his posts and the players he's been addressing to.

He revealed that the devs had been out sick, were really busy, they had a schedule, were adjusting to the new year, and more.

He also said that they've always been listening and that they ultimately don't care about minority player counts. They wish for everyone to enjoy their game to its fullest.

He said that they are still working on all the feedback they've recieved but will more than likely ship out the tweaks piece by piece with the updates they can't stop working on.

He addressed the concerns of the people in those threads and then.

The Wolfgang train stopped.

The Wolfgang threads died.

All overnight peace was achieved.

I swear some people really see that moment in time like the boogiemen took over the forums lmao.

But the forums are like this all the time it seems.

 

edit: Holy crap I forgot about the meta knight comparison.

Yeah interacting with your player-base is a coin flip do it right and everything is good.

Do it wrong and it's like you just gave an angry person a loaded gun to shoot you with.

Klei takes shots like a champ tho.

 

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I have nothing against the devs on a personal level, I know they're all great people, but I don't think acting like they're our friends is a good mindset to have, klei at the end of the day just like any other company has profit as their main goal (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, the devs have families too), no they're not doing you a favor by releasing updates, if they do so it's because that's literally just how their business model works (and that includes things like the extra copy and frequent sales)

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5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Console players also have to buy “Bolt Packs” if they do not have enough Klei Rewards to get the skins they want.

I'm pretty sure your complaints are here because of technical limitations and alike.

I do understand why some people think that some QoL mods should get a base game analogue though. While initially DS was a survival game, DST is more about multiplayer fun/Sandbox aspects, things like "Status announcements" and "Geometric placement" would make sense in this game. I don't really care, since it won't affect me, kek.

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A lot of great points has been brought up by this discussion. But one thing is clear is that there should be a line fine drawn between constructive criticism and meaningless mockery/hate on whatever it is with DST, and to an extent any other game community.

A thing for sure is that I believe is that DST has the one of the best if not THE BEST dev/playerbase communities I've been in for a while, and the amount of activity there is in these forums prove that (from the devs and the players side). Some criticism in these forums may be harsh but I believe that almost all the people who post here criticizing the game GENUINELLY want to support he well-being of this game and its legacy well into the future, otherwise they would not be posting at all. 

Klei, do not get discouraged by people being frustrated on some topics regarding DST; in the end they care about the games well being and always take any post with a grain of salt. For Forumites, ideas, disagreement and criticism are always welcome but do not let your emotions get the best of you in posts and try to explain the reasonings behind genuine concerns. Isn't this why and official forums like this exists at all?

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18 hours ago, Owlrust said:

The forums sometimes needs to cut the developers at Klei some slack. There's a lot of ways Klei handles situations differently from other studios that we end up taking for granted, and forget that what we say can demoralize an entire hardworking development studio. They don't hype, they don't do cash-grabs like Battle Passes, they provide many free updates and content on a constant basis, give free loyalty rewards and spool, increased the drop rate exponentially, and they even provide people an extra copy of the game just so you can play with a friend. One of the only sources of revenue they get comes from skin purchases and DST-game purchases as well. They earned next to nothing from the Forge/Gorge events but kept them going for awhile because people enjoyed them, and as far as I'm aware they ended up having to sell a majority stake to Tencent to get funding from a parent company (correct me if I'm wrong).

Gonna be honest, I felt pretty bad after seeing JoeW's message in the "Content Drought" poll thread and I kinda regret having been so thoughtless with what I had said about the updates being not-so impactful. The tone of their message sounded pretty frustrated, and maybe even a little hurt by the assumptions that were made about the work of the developers.

Klei gave away heirloom skin sets last Hallowed Nights and people simultaneously sold them on the market and bought them in bulk to unravel in mass, leading to people getting literally thousands of spool to weave any skins they wanted for the future. 15 dollars could get you 40,000 spool or much more, and that equates to roughly 29 Elegants, or around 19 complete character skin sets at their most expensive spool cost; and that's just 2,300 spool away from completely weaving the "Complete Costume Chest" in the store. Honestly I'm just as guilty too, since I did that as well because of how tempting it was; I had literally abused the one source of revenue they had and I got away with it, giving zero money in return for the skins I got. Instead of rolling back everyone's accounts to the beginning like many-many other companies would have done for the sake of profit, Klei was generous enough to wave their hands and basically say "Nah, it's fine. We understand we may lose profit out of this, and many of the new Hallowed Nights skin sets will be woven instead of bought, but we want players to do what makes them happy".

Fundamentally we have no right to even have an opinion on anything Klei does because we aren't a consistent-enough source of money. Hate Tencent all you want (I know I do), but their opinion is literally more valuable than ours by default because of money's sake, but Klei gives our opinions just as much courtesy and thought (even more so in many ways). We make demands for gameplay changes and services without being aware of the process that goes into development, or without the money to put where our mouth is, and they still listen. The people that call Klei lazy or uncaring about their playerbase when it came to the Wolfgang rework may have very well only payed 5 dollars in total, and Klei has zero obligation to even reconsider Wolfgang for (what was confirmed to be) a vocal minority, but they are now once again trying to do what they can to make those players happy. They don't try to make players happy for the sake of revenue, but because they want to. All of that, and stuff like "Rhymes with Play" takes time out of their busy schedule to address, but they still do it for everyone.

Not saying you can't criticize the game now and then, or ask for some more transparency on certain things, but just chill on them ok? They work hard so that everyone can have fun, and sometimes we just ask a lot.

louder for the people in the back,

Honestly if we wanna still be a good community, we need to cut the devs some slack

one thing is giving a constructive critique, and most of the time they hear us cause they care about us


and you know how we could start? shutting up about the wolfgang rework jfc, im tired of hearing about it, its been two whole month get over it

if u know so much about game design, go make your own people

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5 minutes ago, Jero-San said:

louder for the people in the back,

Honestly if we wanna still be a good community, we need to cut the devs some slack

one thing is giving a constructive critique, and most of the time they hear us cause they care about us


and you know how we could start? shutting up about the wolfgang rework jfc, im tired of hearing about it, its been two whole month get over it

if u know so much about game design, go make your own people

That My pana 

He speack whit the true in his side 

 

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I think they do a pretty good job with the game to justify having the limited cosmetics they have for sale(or you can just play and earn them!).

The moment they start trying to milk the game like some companies is the moment I’ll just quit.

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19 hours ago, Owlrust said:

Fundamentally we have no right to even have an opinion on anything Klei does because we aren't a consistent-enough source of money.

Is the revenue for skin purchases public knowledge?

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I've been wondering for a while about how much people seem to be complaining about a studio that constantly delivers fresh and totally free content updates SINCE 2 0 1 4. We shouldn't take it for granted, that the developers personally solve individual's problems here like they do so often. Also what Guille said, this is a professional studio at work, the developers are in no way obligated to take every player's complaint or idea into account. @JoeW (and all the others at Klei, but he especially frequently has to deal with us forum people it seems), you are my favourite game studio in the world, I really appreciate your work!

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There doesn't exist a game that you can play without running out of content at some point.

Klei is a small studio, they don't have that many employees so i don't know how it is fair to expect so much out of them when they have been too generous already.

As i've said multiple times i love QOL updates, i want to see quality over quantity and we shouldn't rush them to release content that will be subpar if you want DST to last for years to come.

There have been situations where my favorite tv show was getting a new season or author to release another volume when i thought that it would never happen. Everyone that is complaining about "content drought" should reflect on themselves and try to have some patience.

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Thank you for the kind words, it means a lot. But I think I should clear something up here. 

We absolutely do not want this place to be an echo chamber. This is the very best place to let us know when you are or are not enjoying something and I absolutely do not want people to be shut down for criticism. We wouldn't have DST at all, without that criticism. Our community is without a doubt one of the most important tools we have. That doesn't mean we're always going to agree, but we like to think that we've been pretty good at adjusting when necessary. 

Have those conversations. Deconstruct and explore ideas even if you don't agree. It's better for all of us that these conversations take place and everybody take the time to be constructive with their thoughts. This is your community too, and it's a damn good one. You should be proud of it and you should protect it. But you should also understand that it is what it is because of those conversations, even the tough ones.

Anyway - you should look forward to Thursday. I'll be announcing the beta date and providing some details. I'm pretty sure you won't want to miss it. :wilsontea:

 

 

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