Cloakingsumo198 Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 17 minutes ago, JoeW said: We absolutely do not want this place to be an echo chamber. I'm sorry I ever doubted you guys..... Earlier before I gave up hope too fast and TOO SOON. Spoiler Uh.... The Wolfgang train was probably abit much.... I see you guys haven't changed at all and can still roll with the punches to try and make things better in the end. Thank you for looking at both sides of our forumite coin and judging us all equally by the quality of our post and not it's popularity. 28 minutes ago, JoeW said: That doesn't mean we're always going to agree, but we like to think that we've been pretty good at adjusting when necessary. Have those conversations. Deconstruct and explore ideas even if you don't agree. It's better for all of us that these conversations take place and everybody take the time to be constructive with their thoughts. This is your community too, and it's a damn good one. You should be proud of it and you should protect it. But you should also understand that it is what it is because of those conversations, even the tough ones. Spoiler 28 minutes ago, JoeW said: This is your community too, and it's a damn good one. You should be proud of it and you should protect it. Thank you again. It feels good to hear kinder words from the devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minespatch Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Cloakingsumo198 said: 1 hour ago, JoeW said: This is your community too, and it's a damn good one. You should be proud of it and you should protect it. Thank you again. It feels good to hear kinder words from the devs. Yeah, I appreciate when Joe pops up every now and then to give thoughts. ^^ He's a great spokesman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 Quote Have those conversations. Deconstruct and explore ideas even if you don't agree. It's better for all of us that these conversations take place and everybody take the time to be constructive with their thoughts. Exactly what I've been saying. Even if criticism seems harsh, its genuine feedback. Trolls should be ignored, and toxic people can be banned, but criticism is good and healthy for everything - the game, the devs, and the players. The moment you refuse to listen to feedback is the moment you've lost. Which is why Zark's words were so frustrating to hear. I don't expect Klei to go out and implement every stupid Wolfgang idea that was thrown around, but there was definitely something missing and Klei needed to acknowledge that. There is an element of skill expression in old Wolfgang that is completely missing in the refresh, and its a loss for people who actually played the old version. New Wolf is like tinkertoys refresh. 5 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said: Uh.... The Wolfgang train was probably abit much.... It was exactly as much as it needed to be. They can dismiss Wolfgang players as "just a vocal minority" but what do you expect when the character is already not very popular? Just imagine how Wurt players feel if they got a rework that just removed merm loyalty and merm king instead of fixing them? "Just a vocal minority," who cares right? !NO! Klei eventually responded, and has said they'll look into doing something more. That's all we needed. I trust if Klei actually puts their minds to making something good they'll do well by it. The nerfs are out of their system, they don't have to fear the entire playerbase is forced to play MetaWolfKnight anymore... With that demon off their shoulders they can come up with some good ideas for our strongman when they have time to come back to him. imo as much as some people loved to troll the threads, generate animosity, and generally just be asses it will have ultimately been a win for Klei and us players, as they can take some time getting the right ideas for their mulligan and we'll get a better Wolfgang for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 8 hours ago, Shosuko said: It was exactly as much as it needed to be. They can dismiss Wolfgang players as "just a vocal minority" but what do you expect when the character is already not very popular? Just imagine how Wurt players feel if they got a rework that just removed merm loyalty and merm king instead of fixing them? "Just a vocal minority," who cares right? this thing about the minority also irks me a lot, even if wolfgang was completely removed from the game the people complaining would still be the "minority" because the majority of the playerbase aren't wolfgang players in the first place hell as an extreme example even if half the roster got removed entirely from the game tomorrow the people complaining would still be a minority simply due to the fact that the majority of the playerbase aren't vocal about their opinions so you wouldn't hear them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretPizzaMan Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 52 minutes ago, Guille6785 said: this thing about the minority also irks me a lot, even if wolfgang was completely removed from the game the people complaining would still be the "minority" because the majority of the playerbase aren't wolfgang players in the first place hell as an extreme example even if half the roster got removed entirely from the game tomorrow the people complaining would still be a minority simply due to the fact that the majority of the playerbase aren't vocal about their opinions so you wouldn't hear them There's also the fact that while my poll, poorly constructed and thought out, still reflected the general feelings of it's voters, and it had quite a number of people. I'd bet that if it had neutral option, more people would've voted for Klei to reconsider giving Wolfgang a hotfix. I would make another more accurate poll but it would be in bad taste, and all discussion that could've been had would've already been exhausted. Plus Klei has already responded considering the words of this "vocal minority" and.. well onto the examples. Again the examples are extreme, I think there would be huge outrage over deletion of Wolfgang or half of the Do Not Starve Together cast, so it is a poor example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said: Again the examples are extreme, I think there would be huge outrage over deletion of Wolfgang or half of the Do Not Starve Together cast, so it is a poor example. it would still be the "minority" of the playerbase complaining (good luck somehow getting half of every person who actively plays dst to voice their opinions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 7 minutes ago, Guille6785 said: it would still be the "minority" of the playerbase complaining (good luck somehow getting half of every person who actively plays dst to voice their opinions) democracy sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathem99 Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 Honestly I think KLei has taken (and IS taking) DST to a great direction and they should keep at it and the community should learn to have some patience and wait for however long the developers need for them to release the updates. Also, I'm probably in the minority of people who enjoys DS over DST but that hasn't stopped me from playing both games (the former more-so than the latter). DS hasn't been update for ~2+ years now and I've learned to just wait and see if KLei announces anything for it, they might never do and the game will be left as it is forever and I've started enjoying DS a lot more knowing that. It's all up to KLei and whatever they decide to do with their games and I'm surely gonna be on board with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 8 hours ago, SecretPizzaMan said: Again the examples are extreme, I think there would be huge outrage over deletion of Wolfgang or half of the Do Not Starve Together cast, so it is a poor example. I think its good to see the numbers for what they are. With a roster of 18 characters, all things being even, a character could only expect to enjoy 5-8% of the playerbase. Things are not equal. Wendy, who is vastly more popular that any other character gets about 15%. Over half the roster is <5% People see a poll that shows 50/50 on Wolfgang rework and think it looks close, good enough I guess. Consider Wolfgang is <5% of the population, there are nearly 20 times as many NONWolfgang players who weren't invested. If new Wolfgang is so good, why is it only 50/50? If that vocal minority 5% of the playerbase makes up 50% of the votes against the rework, and a population nearly 20x their size only makes up as many, isn't that a sign *against* the refresh? At best you're swapping one playerbase for another and not gaining anything. Its a layer to the numbers I think people don't often consider. idk if the poll showed an overwhelming 90%++ I'd agree its a vocal minority, but even those liking newWolf are a minority. What about Wurt? Can we dumpster her b/c she has only 0.1% of the playerbase, and if they don't like it "who cares, they're just a minority." Even if she jumps up to 3-4% of the population with the rest of the cast, if you've done it in spite of those players who already liked about Wurt, who are you really helping? I mean, we can break it down visually like this: Spoiler The left bar is the percentage of players who play Wolfgang. The filled area are the "vocal minority" who didn't like the refresh. The right side is the rest of the playerbase, and the bottom bar is enough votes in favor of the new Wolf to create a 50/50 result on a poll about the refresh. idk, doesn't really convince me the refresh is being well received... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Shosuko said: What about Wurt? Can we dumpster her b/c she has only 0.1% of the playerbase, and if they don't like it "who cares, they're just a minority." Even if she jumps up to 3-4% of the population with the rest of the cast, if you've done it in spite of those players who already liked about Wurt, who are you really helping? i wouldd roleplay willow in klei's office Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 16 hours ago, Shosuko said: Exactly what I've been saying. Even if criticism seems harsh, its genuine feedback. Trolls should be ignored, and toxic people can be banned, but criticism is good and healthy for everything - the game, the devs, and the players. The moment you refuse to listen to feedback is the moment you've lost. You called me a troll for liking and supporting the wolfgang rework, should I get banned and ignored for providing positive feedback? For someone who is preaching about listening to feedback, you are quick to dismiss people who are providing different feedback and opinions from yourself by calling them trolls. Such hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Gashzer said: You called me a troll for liking and supporting the wolfgang rework, should I get banned and ignored for providing positive feedback? For someone who is preaching about listening to feedback, you are quick to dismiss people who are providing different feedback and opinions from yourself by calling them trolls. Such hypocrisy. Do you, by chance, read your own posts? On 1/31/2022 at 4:00 PM, Gashzer said: Teleporting bearger seems needlessly time consuming, switch to wurt make a few merm houses close to your tree farm, bundle a few clever disguises, boom awesome minions for tree chopping and marble scrub mining for all characters that you can have close enough to base without worrying about them stomping it. So much better than bearger for late game mega basing Spoiler Quote Have you tried taming a rider beefalo with speedy saddle? You move so fast it makes wanda's rift watch look slow . Spoiler b/c instant cross shard teleportation is literally slower than a rider beef lol Either you're a troll, or you're very inexperienced but talking like you're not. You pick I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 20 minutes ago, Shosuko said: Either you're a troll, or you're very inexperienced but talking like you're not. You pick I guess. Have you tamed a rider beefalo recently? Its insanely fast and it means you aren't locked to Wanda and her rift watches late game if you want to switch characters (incase you get bored of playing the same character for 1000 days cause I definitely do) and still get from point A to point B as fast as possible. From the posts you quoted, i've argued against your points without calling you a troll or making it personal. Keeping it on topic yeno. (EDIT: ive made it personal now but i try my best not to unless someone starts it) Ps. Bearger may be the fastest chopper technically doesn't mean hes the most convenient to use (spawns after waiting a full year, cant let him live close to base). Kinda like technically wurt with 20 merm guards destroys bee queen and other bosses far better and faster than wendy with abigail ever could however getting 20 merm guards isn't as convenient as summoning abigail. (Regular merms are cheap to acquire early game and are alot nicer for wood collecting when compared with scared pigs or waiting for bearger to spawn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 14 minutes ago, Gashzer said: Ps. Bearger may be the fastest chopper technically doesn't mean hes the most convenient to use (spawns after waiting a full year, cant let him live close to base). Kinda like technically wurt with 20 merm guards destroys bee queen and other bosses far better and faster than wendy with abigail ever could however getting 20 merm guards isn't as convenient as summoning abigail. (Regular merms are cheap to acquire early game and are alot nicer for wood collecting when compared with scared pigs or waiting for bearger to spawn) Hence why I use purple gems... Give him an island in the lunar set, decorate it for him and give him honey sometimes for fun. Teleport him when we gotta harvest trees, teleport him back after. I can harvest whenever I want, and I get more trees then any other method. You can even start this from second autumn and even though it doesn't hit peak efficiency right away it still trashes doing something like swapping to wurt, building merm houses, and bundle wrapping masks... And no, using teleport watch is much faster than a rider beef. I loved playing Wanda, and played her for like 2 months solid since release. I swapped off of her to Warly mostly so I could convince my friend to play Wanda, and we can combine their powers to really trash some stuff. Its been very fun, and honestly next to that new Wolfgang is absolute garbage. They could have fixed his pain points of eating out the fridge and linear scaling, and even remove his speed boost if they insisted, with a much better kit then they made. You don't have to agree, I don't expect you to - but when you post things like "purple gems for teleporting bearger, why not build 20 merm huts and bundle wrap hats" it signals either a troll, or someone who doesn't understand how good bearger is at his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 22 minutes ago, Shosuko said: Hence why I use purple gems... Give him an island in the lunar set, decorate it for him and give him honey sometimes for fun. Teleport him when we gotta harvest trees, teleport him back after. I can harvest whenever I want, and I get more trees then any other method. You can even start this from second autumn and even though it doesn't hit peak efficiency right away it still trashes doing something like swapping to wurt, building merm houses, and bundle wrapping masks... Thats a good idea in fairness however still think merms are the better investment, you should try kiting bee queen as walter with a rider beefalo, wearing a merm disguise, with an army of merms attacker her while you slingshot her from safety with marble rounds, while also shooting the occasional slow down round to help the merm boys out... very fun way to fight her in the late game! Then afterwards you and the merm boys can celebrate the victory by mining some marble scrubs and chopping some trees together More fun than bearger island.... just abit 22 minutes ago, Shosuko said: And no, using teleport watch is much faster than a rider beef. I loved playing Wanda, and played her for like 2 months solid since release. I swapped off of her to Warly mostly so I could convince my friend to play Wanda, and we can combine their powers to really trash some stuff. Its been very fun, and honestly next to that new Wolfgang is absolute garbage. They could have fixed his pain points of eating out the fridge and linear scaling, and even remove his speed boost if they insisted, with a much better kit then they made. Rift watches are faster but less flexible to character switches which i previously said. Hence why wolfgang is nice now if you are like me and switch characters often. I don't want to invest in a rift watch network for wanda in the late game cause then i'll feel obliged to stay as her after putting in all that effort of farming tusks and setting teleport points. Unlike wolfgang who I can switch to or out of, guilt free. Plus his gembells are cheap in the late game to boot and no more annoying hunger drain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 23 minutes ago, Gashzer said: Thats a good idea in fairness however still think merms are the better investment, you should try kiting bee queen as walter with a rider beefalo, wearing a merm disguise, with an army of merms attacker her while you slingshot her from safety with marble rounds, while also shooting the occasional slow down round to help the merm boys out... very fun way to fight her in the late game! Or set up an oven, light the fire and have some tea for 8 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gashzer Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, Shosuko said: Or set up an oven, light the fire and have some tea for 8 minutes. But.... but wheres the fun in that? We have very different playstyles it seems, you seem to have a very min-max meta playstyle while I have a bit of a casual, less efficient but more flexible playstyle. I use literally all niche game mechanics in dst, taming beefalos, follower armies, fishing for sunfish/icefish for seasonal protection... i even sleep using walters tent roll for non boss fight healing. Not a fan of using crockpots outside of jellybeans, if i can help it, eating cooked monster meat and sleeping to heal all the way.. i ain't about that chef life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Gashzer said: But.... but wheres the fun in that? We have very different playstyles it seems, you seem to have a very min-max meta playstyle while I have a bit of a casual, less efficient but more flexible playstyle. I use literally all niche game mechanics in dst, taming beefalos, follower armies, fishing for sunfish/icefish for seasonal protection... i even sleep using walters tent roll for non boss fight healing. Not a fan of using crockpots outside of jellybeans, if i can help it, eating cooked monster meat and sleeping to heal all the way.. i ain't about that chef life! That’s the beauty of a game like DS/DST there really is no right or wrong way to play it.. The only thing that is a constant (pun fully intended) is what KLEI intends for us to be able to do/not do.. For example: Some of us solo players have now resorted to large stacks of Gunpowder & Summoning our own personal Companion to help us kill high health bosses (im not talking about Abigail I’m talking about the Terrarium) Meanwhile.. Some people build a bunch of walls around Dragonfly so they can cut out the part of her fight that makes it special/unique & kill her using their Great Wall. If Klei didn’t want people using the Eye of Terror to fight other bosses, or building walls to fight dragonfly then they would release a patch that simply changes the way you interact with the content. For me it’s always been extremely important to challenge what is the “Normal” way or “Expected” way of playing the game and to barge into these forums with crazy highly insane never likely to happen opinions & suggestions to shake the game to its very core. It is in fact this “Shake things to its core” type of thinking that we now have the Reap What You Sow Farming update- Now here’s the thing about that: A Small minority of players are actually UPSET about that update because it changed the boring original farm system into something new, unique, in-depth and rewarding.. This is clear evidential proof that as much as Klei would like to try… they simply can’t satisfy every single camp of players. The game has to change, it has to keep asking the question of what if we challenge what is “normal” and what is “intended” Klei added an ocean into the game… But if they want to make waves (again pun fully intended) they’ll need to ask those “What If..?” Questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhovious Aran Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 I don't feel like I am a particularly mean spirited guy. I always try my best to be respectful and kind. And I do think I have expressed my appreciation for Klei and everything they do on many opportunities. But I have to say it's quite discouraging to partake on this forums discussion and express any sort of criticism or wish, if you only ever get ridiculed for it. Opinions like "other game studios are so much worse" don't really serve any purpose imo. It doesn't do to compare yourself to worse. And just because someone expresses criticism or an idea does also not mean "we" or I take anything for granted, and I am tired of being pidgeonholed like that every single time. And just because we have gotten more updates than ever before also doesn't invalidate someone elses opinion who feels like they are bored with certain aspects of the game or wishes that certain aspects of the game were more focused when it comes to updates. I feel like I am being ridiculed very often whenever I don't preface a statement with something along the lines of "Just want to remind you how much this game means to me and how grateful I am for everything that Klei has been giving to us over the years but". That being said, I do think you can't ever give enough praise in todays society whereas complaints sometimes seem too ample. But sometimes I just wanna discuss a topic without writing a formal letter that sounds like I am trying to address Queen Elizabeth herself every time if that makes any sense. I am incredibly passionate about this game and I often come into this forum filled with curiousity only to annoyedly leave a few minutes later cause people can't ever just talk about different ideas and opinions without ridiculing each other. It's so tiresome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minespatch Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Rhovious Aran said: I am incredibly passionate about this game and I often come into this forum filled with curiousity only to annoyedly leave a few minutes later cause people can't ever just talk about different ideas and opinions without ridiculing each other. It's so tiresome. I don't mock people's intentions, I just get overwhelmed by particular members wall of text. I'm sorry you feel ostracized by this fandom, I don't see you post much but thanks for stating your case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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