Forum's Opinion on the Wolfgang Refresh (haha I strike again!).

[maradyne]

Personal opinion and nothing more:

Wolfgang's play cycle was a bore both before and after the update.
I didn't care to play him before, and adding on the requirement to stand still for a while to access his 'does things the same as everyone else but slightly faster' perk only made me less interested.

His heavy object carrying speed is nice, but...
It's only useful for early game movements. Which I suppose makes him still compete for a speedrunning character, in spite of Wanda existing...for the extremely rare occasion that I want to speedrun??
If he had several more small perks in that vein, then maybe he would catch my interest, but...as many have pointed out, even his rowing perk doesn't actually let you propel the boat faster; it just gets you traveling at the same speed as everyone else with a few less rows.

 

...so he just doesn't do it for me, personally. Not before, not now. I still just don't care about this character, outside of being a footnote in Maxwell's lore.

I kind of wished this update would change that, but I'll admit that it would have had to add things that go outside of the scope of his original perk of 'kill mobs faster'...which it just didn't do successfully.

 

 

I suppose I'll just look forward to the updates of characters that I already like.

Spoiler

Also, never nerf anyone again, please. If WX gets nerfed because he was strong 6 years ago I'm going to cry.

thank you for coming to my talk ted

[ArubaroBeefalo]

9 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

1 kg of fat = 1 kg of muscles, but muscles are more dense for the same volume

i mean.... 1kg of something will always be the same kgs as another 1kg of other matter, what changes, as you said, is the density

1kg of water can have a volume of 100000L if is gas with few pressure but will have a volume of 1 L if is a liquid at regular pressure

mass(kg) =! density kg/m^3 (or kg/L)

[JoeW]

We're always listening to feedback not just on the forums, but on steam, in reviews, discord and youtube.  We have never made it a point to argue or otherwise have a back and forth regarding design decisions since it's unlikely that anything constructive will really come from that in a situation like this. We're not going to get the entire community to agree on just about anything. 

That being said. I think many of you need to take a step back and understand there is a much larger picture that we have to take into account that you do not. At the moment, we've moved on. But that doesn't mean there is no way that we couldn't possibly make some adjustments from time to time. 

For example. If we were to see a sharp drop off in Wolfgang players, obviously we would want to reevaluate. We understand that some people are pretty unhappy about some of the changes, but some of this is being blown pretty far out of proportion. And all the noise doesn't help. 

 

[Yuuko]

23 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

actually is even worst because the same volume of muscle is heavier than fat so, unless you train your leg muscles with aerobic exercises, you will be way slower

 

Except that volume of muscle is providing energy which offsets its weight.  I went into a whole thing with Toros about it, and the lay of the land if you're looking into it for "real life" is like:
1) Bigger strong people are slower than smaller strong people, even with a change of just 10-20 pounds.
2) Bigger strong people will be faster than smaller NOT strong people.  In fact power lifters can have impressive vertical jumps, sprint speeds, etc.  You don't see it often because its not their sport, but they are surprisingly capable.
3) Bigger strong people are a LOT faster than big not strong people.  Fat weighs you down without compensation, but muscle provides strength that offsets its own mass + some.
4) When a strong person trims down their speed gets even better.  Watching Eddie Hall in his post worlds strongest man journey he has incredible athletics.  Its been great to see his journey because we don't often see people who were power lifters become rounded sports athletes.

Yes there is a diminishing returns to total size / strength, but you shouldn't discount their strength.

imo ~ a good way to reflect this would be to give mighty form the damage / work boosts, and give normal form a speed boost, and let players work out the right amount to get the perks they want.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

Except that volume of muscle is providing energy which offsets its weight.  I went into a whole thing with Toros about it, and the lay of the land if you're looking into it for "real life" is like:
1) Bigger strong people are slower than smaller strong people, even with a change of just 10-20 pounds.
2) Bigger strong people will be faster than smaller NOT strong people.  In fact power lifters can have impressive vertical jumps, sprint speeds, etc.  You don't see it often because its not their sport, but they are surprisingly capable.
3) Bigger strong people are a LOT faster than big not strong people.  Fat weighs you down without compensation, but muscle provides strength that offsets its own mass + some.
4) When a strong person trims down their speed gets even better.  Watching Eddie Hall in his post worlds strongest man journey he has incredible athletics.  Its been great to see his journey because we don't often see people who were power lifters become rounded sports athletes.

Yes there is a diminishing returns to total size / strength, but you shouldn't discount their strength.

imo ~ a good way to reflect this would be to give mighty form the damage / work boosts, and give normal form a speed boost, and let players work out the right amount to get the perks they want.

for sure. i forgot to mention that i was talking about muscles in the top part of the body, not fat legs vs muscle legs

[dubious little]

8 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

but getting gold or rocks isnt difficult which leads to have easy access to dumbells that make the character so boring instead of being low durability/damage(kle buff the durability while using them as weapon, is changing just 1 danm number) version of the gembell

also a lot of people (myself included) rely on wolf to learn fighting the bosses. Im glad i could experience the old Wolfgang,if not idk how i would learn how to beat BQ or FW without wasting tons of resources, while, if you use wolf, you can create a world, play as him and fight bosses multiple times for so little grindy until you get used and try a wilson like character to test if you learned the fight flow

I don't really see how crafting something and then walking with it while just doing basic things like resource gathering or going to a place like a muctusk camp or a spiders nest to get more meat is an issue, it just kinda sounds like your attention span is really low if you need to use the walking cane all the time or crafting the dumbell is boring since you should have an abundance of gold already anyways and rocks should be nearby or mass harvested if not nearby your base. Not trying to insult but I just don't see how walking with an item to get stronger has any issues that needed to be discussed, since all your points are just "I don't like dumbells so I want a completely different thing" which is fair, but tell that to Klei and not me. I already said my thing is a solution for reworked Wolfgang, not a solution for if they wanted to make Wolfgang better by changing a bunch of things.

I also disagree massively that every character should be dumbed down for beginners. It's great that you used him as a beginner but his downsides (sanity and hunger) were clearly not meant to cater towards a beginner, even then it really doesn't take that many more resources, at most you need more weapons (which is bad) but usually you can just use a hambat, at least you need more healing (which isn't hard).

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, dubious little said:

I don't really see how crafting something and then walking with it while just doing basic things like resource gathering or going to a place like a muctusk camp or a spiders nest to get more meat is an issue, it just kinda sounds like your attention span is really low if you need to use the walking cane all the time or crafting the dumbell is boring since you should have an abundance of gold already anyways and rocks should be nearby or mass harvested if not nearby your base. Not trying to insult but I just don't see how walking with an item to get stronger has any issues that needed to be discussed, since all your points are just "I don't like dumbells so I want a completely different thing" which is fair, but tell that to Klei and not me. I already said my thing is a solution for reworked Wolfgang, not a solution for if they wanted to make Wolfgang better by changing a bunch of things.

I also disagree massively that every character should be dumbed down for beginners. It's great that you used him as a beginner but his downsides (sanity and hunger) were clearly not meant to cater towards a beginner, even then it really doesn't take that many more resources, at most you need more weapons (which is bad) but usually you can just use a hambat, at least you need more healing (which isn't hard).

honestly, for some reason i didnt took into account gathering resources while using the dumbell. Now i like it xD

ok, let wolfgang for just veterans but what we do with the low tier dumbbells? no veteran will use them which is dumb

8 minutes ago, dubious little said:

"I don't like dumbells so I want a completely different thing"

i didnt say that. i just wanted and improvement as you are suggesting lel

[Blunty_x]

17 minutes ago, JoeW said:

TLDR

Well you heard it boys, Wolfgang is staying the same for the foreseeable future, unless we all decide to just quit him and lower his usage. It'll be like a strike. 

 

P.S. Considering the status of Wurt I can't even believe that would cause a tweak 

[Well-met]

yes im sure disrespecting the developer will make things go your way

just grab a workshop mod. if you absolutely want to play online then pick wendy like everyone else.

[Owlrust]

Could we just lock this second thread and be done with it for now please? At this point it's not even just a simple discussion anymore, it's just bickering.

[HowlVoid]

(Warning: tone ahead is of someone super depressed and not angry)

"We're always listening to feedback, unless we don't care for that feedback"

When is feedback taken into account when it wasn't heard during the refresh or even after?

A large majority of the community agrees that at least something feels "off". Wether it's minor or big. Can we at least acknowledge the rowing?

And if feedback is only considered when the number of Wolfgang players drops off, doesn't that mean feedback is only taken into account when it's proven without a doubt that something is wrong and all previous feed back was completely ignored? People have presented so many pages of foresight that are coming true with the number of unhappy Wolfgang players ever growing. Why does it have to be to those extremes? There are so many people who are unhappy with the rework, so many not just "a few"... And it doesn't seem like it would be a hard fix either... 

"We're always listening to feedback" just feels like an empty promise that creates a smokescreen so people feel complacent in their feedback. I thought that before Winter break the team was actually listening to feedback but it turns out you guys actually moved on. 

Haha... That feels like a backhanded slap...

OOF

(I even had more ideas I wanted to share but feedback is hollow so why bother)

[Well-met]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

(Warning: tone ahead is of someone super depressed and not angry)

"We're always listening to feedback, unless we don't care for that feedback"

When is feedback taken into account when it wasn't heard during the refresh or even after?

A large majority of the community agrees that at least something feels "off". Wether it's minor or big. Can we at least acknowledge the rowing?

And if feedback is only considered when the number of Wolfgang players drops off, doesn't that mean feedback is only taken into account when it's proven without a doubt that something is wrong and all previous feed back was completely ignored? People have presented so many pages of foresight that are coming true with the number of unhappy Wolfgang players ever growing. Why does it have to be to those extremes? There are so many people who are unhappy with the rework, so many not just "a few"... And it doesn't seem like it would be a hard fix either... 

"We're always listening to feedback" just feels like an empty promise that creates a smokescreen so people feel complacent in their feedback. I thought that before Winter the team was actually listening to feedback but it turns out you guys actually moved on. 

Haha... That feels like a backhanded slap...

OOF

on the other hand it also means they're aren't listening when everyone really good at the game tells them wendy is too powerful

so hey it evens out!

[ArubaroBeefalo]

26 minutes ago, Well-met said:

everyone

are you sure?

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 hours ago, JoeW said:

We have never made it a point to argue or otherwise have a back and forth regarding design decisions since it's unlikely that anything constructive will really come from that in a situation like this.

This makes me worried. It sounds like because of all the emotion and commotion inside Wolfgang threads. Actual feedback on the rework inside of them has been disregarded.

I know arguing is the lowest form of discussion but there were people giving their honest opinions, even the rude ones had some arguably good points. 

2 hours ago, JoeW said:

At the moment, we've moved on.

Spoiler

pain.

 

2 hours ago, JoeW said:

But that doesn't mean there is no way that we couldn't possibly make some adjustments from time to time. 

Spoiler

I can wait for work to be done for changes or being prioritized less for more pressing matters.

But I hope that complaints aren't completely tossed simply because there aren't enough players advocating for change "now".

Spoiler

Wolfgang players switching away from Wolfgang after this rework.

People making accounts just to post once giving their opinion on the rework.

The mixed reactions to both nerfs and "rework"

The division amongst the forums and the shifting opinions on here.

I thought those things would be signs for tweaks, I thought those things counted as feedback.

But I suppose all I can do now is just not play my favorite character to not skew the numbers.

Regardless I still look forward to what Klei is cooking up.

[shiguld]

Sad, but not unexpected. At least we don't have to hold out hope for a rework now.

4 hours ago, JoeW said:

We're always listening to feedback not just on the forums, but on steam, in reviews, discord and youtube.  We have never made it a point to argue or otherwise have a back and forth regarding design decisions since it's unlikely that anything constructive will really come from that in a situation like this. We're not going to get the entire community to agree on just about anything. 

That being said. I think many of you need to take a step back and understand there is a much larger picture that we have to take into account that you do not. At the moment, we've moved on. But that doesn't mean there is no way that we couldn't possibly make some adjustments from time to time. 

For example. If we were to see a sharp drop off in Wolfgang players, obviously we would want to reevaluate. We understand that some people are pretty unhappy about some of the changes, but some of this is being blown pretty far out of proportion. And all the noise doesn't help. 

 

Ive been trying to get myself (and friends) to like the new rework (a little unsuccessfully) by testing out wolf in end game scenarios, but i guess that was counter productive if the usage numbers are being looked at. Guess the best option, for many reasons, is to celestial swap to ye olde lady now. 

Glass-half full thought, at least the rework got me on the forums for the first time

[Blunty_x]

1 hour ago, shiguld said:

Glass-half full thought, at least the rework got me on the forums for the first time

Lol, same. Long time lurker, and even after joining never posted, just kept an eye out for Reward links, updates, and roadmaps. 

[Scrimbles]

6 hours ago, JoeW said:

We have never made it a point to argue or otherwise have a back and forth regarding design decisions since it's unlikely that anything constructive will really come from that in a situation like this.

This is why I miss SethR.

I used to remember a time when Klei devs were actually talking to people on the forums. Many years ago.

There just seems to be such a disconnect between you guys and the community. I understand things have grown, and it's not a small community here on the forums anymore, but even still... I can't remember a recent time when anyone on the dev team has just... talked to people.

[Yuuko]

13 hours ago, JoeW said:

there is a much larger picture that we have to take into account that you do not. At the moment, we've moved on.

For example. If we were to see a sharp drop off in Wolfgang players, obviously we would want to reevaluate. We understand that some people are pretty unhappy about some of the changes, but some of this is being blown pretty far out of proportion. And all the noise doesn't help. 

Spoiler

tbh I feel we're lucky to get any response since the answer is "no, we're not doing anything, don't bother."

I feel the response time to Wendy and Klei revising her refresh paints a stark contrast to this situation.  Many people liked Wendy's first refresh too!  But Klei made a very quick change to accommodate her core player base. These refreshes are a big hope for many mains of less popular characters to receive love and Klei has come through for them...  Its like a Christmas gift for their character to get some attention.  Only on Christmas Wolfgang got...

Maybe because Wendy is picked a lot, Klei looks at that stat and considers her more important.  Losing half of Wendy picks is more than losing ALL of Wolfgang picks...  What was the reason for this nerf again?  Because there wasn't character choice?  Wendy is played almost 2x as much as any other character, better nerf Woflgang...

Sometimes it helps to admit you're wrong.  I argued at length that Wolfgang should receive nerfs, and that the speed was an unnecessary part of his kit, that he was too brain dead and OP.  Even as I played Wendy's refresh and Wanda (for the entirety between her release and Wolfgang's rework) I still kept this mindset.  It was in the thread for his refresh, when Klei released what they had planned on the beta branch, and playing this version of him that I had an immediate 180.  Wolfgang may have been OP some time ago, but the game has scaled up to meet him.  Armies of spiders and mountains of foods.  At the point before his refresh he and Wanda were equal picks for "strongest character" with her range and late game teleporting competing against his move speed and what that meant both in combat and in early game exploration.  Finally there was choice...  was...

[Duck986]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Sometimes it helps to admit you're wrong.

but if you show you're wrong, you show your weakness, and investors will start to think if this company is the right place to invest money... hmmm...

[Blunty_x]

4 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

but if you show you're wrong, you show your weakness, and investors will start to think if this company is the right place to invest money... hmmm...

Hah, there was a time when I was important as the consumer, but now!? Not so sure. I suppose this was an inevitable thing though. Investors want a ROI, and if Wolf stopped people from buying Wanda I guess you do the logical thing and nerf him. Idk though, not much is discussed here about that, and why should it be. 

I like how the forum shifted from excitement of rework to confusion on Rework, to ideas how to fix it, too anger on said rework and now shifted to klei

[SecretPizzaMan]

There's no further point I guess, everything that could be discussed has been discussed, everything that could be argued has been argued. Hey at least there will be no more annoying Wolfgang topics am I right?

[Duck986]

2 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

Hey at least there will be no more annoying Wolfgang topics am I right?

it depends.

[HowlVoid]

5 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

There's no further point I guess, everything that could be discussed has been discussed, everything that could be argued has been argued. Hey at least there will be no more annoying Wolfgang topics am I right?

Yeah I'm considering doubling down and never shutting up about Wolfgang, now. Just to test this "we listen to feedback".

I know they don't listen, especially when they've moved on. If Wolfgang player numbers drop? Yeah right, when have they ever done that for any other character? 

I'll follow their community guidelines ofc and be civil about it, but only shut up after hell has frozen over.

The only problem is that I don't know if I have the energy for it. Am I doing it just to spite Klei? Oh hell yeah lmao. I wrote so many damn threads about Wolfgang, I can't let all that work go to waste. 

[SonicDen220]

My interpretation of Joe's message:

 

 

This will sound pessimistic - I don't expect any Wolfgang changes anytime soon (or ever for that matter). I actually think it will take so long that the dust will settle before any change is made and people will just move on.

[SecretPizzaMan]

1 minute ago, SonicDen220 said:

My interpretation of Joe's message:

 

 

This will sound pessimistic - I don't expect any Wolfgang changes anytime soon (or ever for that matter). I actually think it will take so long that the dust will settle before any change is made and people will just move on.

I just hope wicker doesn't get massacred.