Forum's Opinion on the Wolfgang Refresh (haha I strike again!).

[SecretPizzaMan]

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

It will never die.

Why did I had to be right about this being THE Wolfgang Topic.

[Cheggf]

21 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

Why did I had to be right about this being THE Wolfgang Topic.

It has a poll. Also the mods didn't lock it yet.

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 hours ago, Owlrus said:

Love or hate aside, I don't understand why people only use gembells. Like, of course you run out of durability quickly when you use a gembell from 0 might. Golden dumbbells are cheaper and just as good, just not for mighty form. 

Golden to get from wimpy to mighty, then gembell for mighty only; you'll save a lot of durability in the long-run.

Mostly because I don't wanna carry an extra dumbbell.

Aside from that I wished the higher tier dumbbells were better overall.

But from what I understand using the gembell at wimpy form doesn't do better than the stone dumbbell and it doesn't do better than the gold dumbbell while normal.

That sucks.

Spoiler

Since we didn't die when papa JoeW delivered the bad news......

 

That means we're gonna live forever!!!

 

[Yuuko]

23 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

But from what I understand using the gembell at wimpy form doesn't do better than the stone dumbbell and it doesn't do better than the gold dumbbell while normal.

Correct.  There are 3 tiers of gains.  The gains are tier1 = 0.3125, tier2 = 0.9375, tier3 = 1.875.  So tier 2 is 3x tier 1, and tier 3 is 2x tier 2 (6x tier1.)  The tier you gain depends on the form, so wimpy / normal / mighty.

Stone dumbbell = tier 3 / 2 / 1
Gold dumbbell = tier 3 / 3 / 1
Gem dumbbell = tier 3 / 3 / 3

So all of them have the same rate of gain in wimpy form.  Stone falls off in normal compared to both gold and gem which stay t3 gains.  But in Mighty stone and gold both fall to t1 while Gembell stays t3.

[goblinball]

6 hours ago, Gashzer said:

makes me sad when I win debates this way

This isn’t called “winning the debate”, it’s called “being so annoying nobody wants to continue talking to you”. There’s a difference.

[Owlrust]

42 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Mostly because I don't wanna carry an extra dumbbell.

It's not so bad, the golden one makes for a good ranged weapon, which technically you're never without.

[Yuuko]

10 hours ago, goblinball said:

This isn’t called “winning the debate”, it’s called “being so annoying nobody wants to continue talking to you”. There’s a difference.

Its not even that - its just straight up troll behavior.  I suspected they were just trolling earlier when their post on the topic was nothing but praise for newWolf - which is odd because even people who do prefer new Wolf typically do so with some reservations, saying "I like this but..." etc.  Their post was more like a tongue in cheek than sincere adoration for the rework.  idk, sometimes tones are hard to read in text but then they share opinions where inefficient tactics being considered "good" while nominal efforts are considered "bad."  Its not just ignorance, but more purposefully declaring bad things are good to bait response.  Not like @Mike23Ua who genuinely shares his understanding and desires, even if sometimes they don't line up with the game, they are still sincere and honest comments to make a better discussion.

But ultimately things like

Quote

Have you tried taming a rider beefalo with speedy saddle? You move so fast it makes wanda's rift watch look slow :wilson_ecstatic:.

are so extremely outlandish its just drivel.  Then they follow it up with stuff like

Quote

makes me sad when I win debates this way

that isn't just designed to bait a response, but incite hostility and its just like... ok edge lord, we get it, you're SuPeR tRoLl 9000x w/e.  Better to just ignore them and move on.  Klei isn't going to do anything about it, but if we take the bait this turns into 20 pages of ruckus and a locked thread.

I enjoy chatting with people here, especially people who disagree with me, even if I may use strong words I'm not here to pick fights or flame ppl.  I 100% respect @ArubaroBeefalo when he says something I disagree with.  That is his experience and perspective!  And when our opinions overlap we have no problem agreeing with each other.  I harbor no hard feelings or frustrations with them.

My opinions have changed from conversations here, including that coming into the Wolfgang rework I was of the opinion that old Wolfgang was OP, that his speed was entirely too much, easy power through food, etc pretty much on the same page as Klei.  Its only from chatting with others in threads like this, and playing for myself based on their responses that I changed my opinion to what I feel now, which is that old Wolfgang exactly as he was fit into the game without issue and a nerf was completely unjustified.  He didn't crowd out other choices, evident by his moderate play rate.  His super damage was no longer a unique outlier either, with several other viable combat options available capable of besting him in different scenarios.  Klei's whole spiel about "Wolfgang is the Metaknight of DST" was dated.  They already fixed that problem in their game by growing the game around him.  Wendy was the farm mobs combat character, Wigfrid was the tanky / team player, Wolfgang was the super rush, and Wanda was the late game god. (and b/c I've been playing a LOT of Warly lately, I wanna say he was the heavy investment exponentially scaling support dsp)

Now I can still understand Klei's position of perhaps still wanting to remove the speed boost, reduce the food intake, and use the assets they crafted.  I posted before what I think could work in accordance with that, and others have shared their ideas too.  I think if Klei was willing, we could have had a much better Wolfgang based on the feedback provided (they certainly gave their effort for Wendy) but now that Klei has announced they're moving on and Wolfgang is just gonna be whatever he is well...  That doesn't mean we can't still talk about it.  This is a forum after all.

But I'm not here to feed trolls

[Maxposting]

funny posts shall be funny, right?

[Cloakingsumo198]

22 hours ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

funny posts shall be funny, right?

Unfortunately not always.........

 

 

 

Now then. I plan to assist Howl, he can't handle this battle alone...

Wolfgang rework idea #69

Wolfgang's mighty form could have an affect on how his sanity drain is operated.

At wimpy form Wolfgang will also take sanity damage like Walter, but overtime like Wanda's hp drain when hit except extremely slower.

The sanity drain on hit will be massive but take a way longer time than Walter's to set in.  

To make it even worse the affect will stack on top of each other, so if Wolfgang got hit by 5 ticks of 20 damage normally. The drain will be faster than if he got hit by one hit of 100 damage.

The drain won't be fast I'm thinking it should take like a whole in-game day for the sanity drain effect to finish.

The effect would be represented by shadow hands gripping his sanity meter. Like how the the health meter gets a small meat effigy indicator.  Possibly multiple hands depending on how many drains are active.

The only way to remove the active drains is to enter another stronger form. As it instills confidence into Wolfgang to keep going and to ignore his previous problems.

Normal form will have a weaker sanity drain when being hit as he doesn't feel as vulnerable as he did in wimpy form.

Mighty won't be affected at all when hit since he's at his peak strength he won't feel vulnerable after being hit. (And because in gameplay he can't go into a 4th form lmao so he can't remove the debuffs he would receive.)

Spoiler

In exchange for these changes whilst in wimpy form wolfgang will get his sp- *Bang* *Bang* * Bang*

Spoiler

Jokes aside he'll get his speed boost to help him dodge attacks and avoid combat

My reasoning is his fear of being vulnerable and weak makes him run away faster like a coward.

 

His regular increased sanity drain would also still exist.

[grm9]

27 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Unfortunately not always.........

 

 

 

Now then. I plan to assist Howl, he can't handle this battle alone...

Wolfgang rework idea #69

Wolfgang's mighty form could have affect have an affect on how his sanity drain is operated.

At wimpy form Wolfgang will also take sanity damage like Walter, but overtime like Wanda's hp drain when hit except extremely slower.

The sanity drain on hit will be massive but take a way longer time than Walter's to set in.  

To make it even worse the affect will stack on top of each other, so if Wolfgang got hit by 5 ticks of 20 damage normally. The drain will be faster than if he got hit by one hit of 100 damage.

The drain won't be fast I'm thinking it should take like a whole in-game day for the sanity drain effect to finish.

The effect would be represented by shadow hands gripping his sanity meter. Like how the the health meter gets a a small meat effigy indicator.  Possibly multiple hands depending on how many drains are active.

The only way to remove the active drains is to enter another stronger form. As it instills confidence into Wolfgang to keep going and to ignore his previous problems.

Normal form will have a weaker sanity drain when being hit as he doesn't feel as vulnerable as he did in wimpy form.

Mighty won't be affected at all when hit since he's at his peak strength he won't feel vulnerable after being hit. (And because in gameplay he can't go into a 4th form lmao so he can't remove the debuffs he would receive.)

  Reveal hidden contents

In exchange for these changes whilst in wimpy form wolfgang will get his sp- *Bang* *Bang* * Bang*

  Reveal hidden contents

Jokes aside he'll get his speed boost to help him dodge attacks and avoid combat

My reasoning is his fear of being vulnerable and weak makes him run away faster like a coward.

 

 

Cool idea, though it makes already nerfed character worse.

[Cloakingsumo198]

10 minutes ago, grumm9690 said:

Cool idea, though it makes already nerfed character worse.

I gotchu.... no problem

39 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

In exchange for these changes whilst in wimpy form wolfgang will get his sp- *Bang* *Bang* * Bang*

Speed returns. I will perish by the hand of our forumites to bless you all before I go out in a blaze.....

Spoiler

In my 2 months observing forumites behavior I've noticed that speed seems to be incredibly "op" it will negate any and all downside or upkeep in the eyes of the forumite.

Since these sanity changes are pretty much a big nerf and exist just to expand on Wolfgang's fear and cowardice.

I needed to put something that would be both a buff and bait.

For legal purposes some of this post is a joke.

 

[Toroic]

On 1/30/2022 at 8:44 AM, Atkvin said:

They probably just meant there's no reason to be in wimpy ever now since wimpy once at least had that fringe benefit of healing more due to the scaling HP. But you're right, it's not like you could ever feasibly take advantage of that mid-fight (where you should already be mighty), it could really only come in useful on early game extended trips with limited supplies, like ruins rushing with blue mushrooms.

I see what Klei went for trying to design new Wolf with similarities and differences to Wanda, unlike Wanda's age instead tying all his power to mighty form and making wimpy be the undesirable punishment -- but alongside how getting mighty is uninteresting, it also makes his other forms really boring.

Just for demonstration, imagine how much less interesting Wanda herself would be if her shadow magic perk was tied to her young form too, and all her middle-aged and old forms were good for were punishing you for not managing/stocking her ageless watches well enough.. This is almost what Wolf is.

It's a slightly extreme comparison as Wolf won't straight-up die when wimpy, and Wanda's older form has more gameplay drawbacks like slower chopping -- but even Wolf's little utility perks like wearing piggyback and marble armor are negated if he even just slips into normal form.

I absolutely agree, and I think it’s one of the worst aspects of Wolf’s gameplay loop right now.

Until you have a gembell (because stone and gold are not worth crafting) you are either perma-wimpy or chained to your base to maintain mighty meter, and if rng is not on your side you need both dfly dead and a prestihatitator before you can actually maintain mighty away from your base.

You then need a consistent supply of purple gems and 15 seconds per day working out.

When Wolf’s form was tied to food, you could become mighty anywhere food existed

Wanda doesn’t have these same upkeep issues, she can get nightmare fuel by going crazy anywhere, her watches recharge infinitely to offset aging. and food is also everywhere.

The net effect is that Wolf either needs a steady supply of purple gems or build out a gym network, and working out in either aspect just isn’t fun.

That’s why I had suggested a buff to gold dumbell (half as good at maintaining mighty while mighty), double damage from thrown dumbells, and to reduce the durability cost of throwing to be the same as pumping.

Instead of having to wait until you get gembell to roam while mighty, and still need to stand still, you can freely throw the dumbbells at enemies to maintain mighty without wasting resources.

It would just be numbers tweaks and huge for not feeling like playing Wolf is like walking through knee high mud.

[Lex the Grim]

On 2/1/2022 at 4:20 PM, Shosuko said:

Now I can still understand Klei's position of perhaps still wanting to remove the speed boost, reduce the food intake, and use the assets they crafted.  I posted before what I think could work in accordance with that, and others have shared their ideas too.  I think if Klei was willing, we could have had a much better Wolfgang based on the feedback provided (they certainly gave their effort for Wendy) but now that Klei has announced they're moving on and Wolfgang is just gonna be whatever he is well...  That doesn't mean we can't still talk about it.  This is a forum after all.

Wait wait wait! When and where the hell did they announce that? Is that real?

They're serious not going to try any suggestions or even their own tweaks for Wolfgang?

[Cloakingsumo198]

18 minutes ago, Lex the Grim said:

Wait wait wait! When and where the hell did they announce that? Is that real?

They're serious not going to try any suggestions or even their own tweaks for Wolfgang?

Pretty sure it's in this very thread homie......

Here I brought it forward.

On 1/27/2022 at 1:51 PM, JoeW said:

We're always listening to feedback not just on the forums, but on steam, in reviews, discord and youtube.  We have never made it a point to argue or otherwise have a back and forth regarding design decisions since it's unlikely that anything constructive will really come from that in a situation like this. We're not going to get the entire community to agree on just about anything. 

That being said. I think many of you need to take a step back and understand there is a much larger picture that we have to take into account that you do not. At the moment, we've moved on. But that doesn't mean there is no way that we couldn't possibly make some adjustments from time to time. 

For example. If we were to see a sharp drop off in Wolfgang players, obviously we would want to reevaluate. We understand that some people are pretty unhappy about some of the changes, but some of this is being blown pretty far out of proportion. And all the noise doesn't help. 

Even just going back to retrieve it still hurts.....

[SecretPizzaMan]

30 minutes ago, Lex the Grim said:

Wait wait wait! When and where the hell did they announce that? Is that real?

They're serious not going to try any suggestions or even their own tweaks for Wolfgang?

Go to page 1 of this thread. Look at the first reply below the post, there should be a word to word copy of what JoeW said.

Hell check page 6 it is there.

[Lex the Grim]

8 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Pretty sure it's in this very thread homie......

Here I brought it forward.

Even just going back to retrieve it still hurts.....

Thanks man, I ended up manically going backwards through all the pages to find the SINGULAR response from a dev.

Nothing official in the patch notes. No topic created and pinned to let people know. I had to trawl through multiple pages of topics from the last month looking for any indication, and it's buried in the middle of a multi page topic STARTED BY A COMMUNITY MEMBER.

I'm just... livld. I've been checking in since the reworked dropped. And they do THIS. THIS IS THE ONLY RESPONSE?

Man.
 

Thanks for illuminating me anyways Sumo. Appreciate it.

[SecretPizzaMan]

3 minutes ago, Lex the Grim said:

Thanks man, I ended up manically going backwards through all the pages to find the SINGULAR response from a dev.

Nothing official in the patch notes. No topic created and pinned to let people know. I had to trawl through multiple pages of topics from the last month looking for any indication, and it's buried in the middle of a multi page topic STARTED BY A COMMUNITY MEMBER.

I'm just... livld. I've been checking in since the reworked dropped. And they do THIS. THIS IS THE ONLY RESPONSE?

Man.
 

Thanks for illuminating me anyways Sumo. Appreciate it.

It's really sad ain't it?

[Lex the Grim]

6 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

It's really sad ain't it?

I mean it's just unacceptable. They are literally destroying the sterling standard they have set. They have broken the trust. Much like glass, it's going to be there forever now.

A little bit hyperbolic I suppose, but I know I'm regretting the numerous purchases I made from them over Christmas, and the ones before too.

It's a big, and seriously disrespectful blow. Not to all their customers I suppose. Some people don't care. But I do.

[Cheggf]

17 minutes ago, Lex the Grim said:

I mean it's just unacceptable. They are literally destroying the sterling standard they have set. They have broken the trust. Much like glass, it's going to be there forever now.

A little bit hyperbolic I suppose, but I know I'm regretting the numerous purchases I made from them over Christmas, and the ones before too.

It's a big, and seriously disrespectful blow. Not to all their customers I suppose. Some people don't care. But I do.

They're also making fun of people who don't like the rework on Discord.

[SecretPizzaMan]

3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

They're also making fun of people who don't like the rework on Discord.

I'm pretty sure it's only one person, and they don't represent the entirety of Klei.

[Cheggf]

9 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

I'm pretty sure it's only one person, and they don't represent the entirety of Klei.

One developer is making fun of people while everyone else does nothing so they're all innocent little angels. Normally people at least get talked to when they're doing crap like making fun of their customers. They're not doing anything, so they're okay with it.

[QuartzBeam]

To whoever needs to hear this:

 

The Wolfgang Refresh wasn't your fault.

You need to move on.

[Ohan]

16 hours ago, Toros said:

That’s why I had suggested a buff to gold dumbell (half as good at maintaining mighty while mighty), double damage from thrown dumbells, and to reduce the durability cost of throwing to be the same as pumping.

Instead of having to wait until you get gembell to roam while mighty, and still need to stand still, you can freely throw the dumbbells at enemies to maintain mighty without wasting resources.

It would just be numbers tweaks and huge for not feeling like playing Wolf is like walking through knee high mud.

Looks like it has once more fallen on ur broad burly shoulders to fully do wolfgang justice Toros 

real bummer that they didn’t at least double the damage and reduce the durability drain of dumbells when thrown before moving on.. that seems like such an obvious and simple enough change to make and would give wolf a fun and unique combat gimmick. 

Why bother making them throwable if they’re gonna drain 5/10% durability? Who is throwing a gembell for 59 damage  

[MondayNight]

12 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

To whoever needs to hear this:

 

The Wolfgang Refresh wasn't your fault.

You need to move on.

Except it was. And whomever came up with the idle mechanic/players sitting in place while watching some animation ad-infinitum should realize how bad of a game design that is so same mistake won't occur again in future. More-so regarding repetitive, up-keeping in-game actions.

[HowlVoid]

3 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

To whoever needs to hear this:

 

The Wolfgang Refresh wasn't your fault.

You need to move on.

Oh, it was someone's fault alright.

The funniest part is the condescending tone Joe decided to take about how we don't see "the big picture" when the fix to Wolfgang would just be number changes. Proven true by the dozens of analytical data posts provide by users I'm sure they didn't even read. They're just not willing to budge out of arrogance/ego and have stooped down to making fun of us instead. 

I think they need to take "a step back" and realize why people are truly upset. It's because we were given the false narrative that our voices mattered when it turned out only one voice mattered, Zark's. I don't hold any animosity towards him, having that over a video game would be stupid, but it is a big bummer. 

*Sigh*, I don't know, trust goes both ways, maybe somewhere along the way we failed to trust in Klei? Maybe we made too many back-to-back posts and created too much noise and that's why it was hard to gather any feedback from us. But now we are a bit more collected, so the "we'll give it time" comment they made a while back turning out to be untrue stings all the more. They're gonna wait until the Wolfgang plane crashes and burns which just seem counter productive for no reason when they can squeeze something into the coming QoL patches. 

To me it just seems like refreshes should be taken more seriously over content itself, as that is the window through which content is experienced. That window wasn't perfect but it wasn't the opaque peephole we have now. For some people Wolfgang is the only character they play, as a developer, wouldn't you want the best experience they could have? They're the last people I would expect to not understand why it matters to us. They're the last people I would expect to not understand why it's hard to just "move on" when you've sacrificed so much time defending your stance on a hobby most people would regard as a waste of time.  Most importantly, they're the last people I would expect to not respect all the Wolfgang players that have hundreds of hours into the character, time spent developing and mastering a certain skill set, and have that completely disregarded and be given something subpar in it's stead.  

Just dumbfounding, really.