I hand an epiphany, maybe I sound dumb idk

[BezKa]

So if I understand correctly, the argument shifted from "Speed was useful outside of battle" to "speed was important almost exclusively in battle and now I have to kite better" and that it makes Wolfgang boring? 

I've been trying to keep up with all the arguments, and what I keep getting always boils down to either:

-Wolfgang lost his simplistic gameplay (he's too complicated)

-Wolfgang is boring

-Speed was the thing that made Wolfgang fun and removing it is a nerf

-Wofgang was actually buffed so just give him the speed back 

-We had something before and we don't anymore therefore the change is bad

 

[Gi-Go]

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

Facts. 

 

[Koomin]

15 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Then nerfing Wolfgang for something so trivial, because you want other characters to shine? That's a big, big slap in the face to Wolfgang mains.

Shockingly rude of Klei to be interested in the characters in their game having a chance to shine equally. 

These arguments have reached the point of becoming super poorly thought out and aggressive towards developers, and this thread has become a pretty good example of why many game developers don't communicate with their player base.  I wouldn't be shocked if we don't see them come back into the forums to engage in discussion about their changes after this.

[HowlVoid]

On 12/20/2021 at 3:20 PM, BezKa said:

So if I understand correctly, the argument shifted from "Speed was useful outside of battle" to "speed was important almost exclusively in battle and now I have to kite better" and that it makes Wolfgang boring? 

I've been trying to keep up with all the arguments, and what I keep getting always boils down to either:

-Wolfgang lost his simplistic gameplay (he's too complicated)

-Wolfgang is boring

-Speed was the thing that made Wolfgang fun and removing it is a nerf

-Wofgang was actually buffed so just give him the speed back 

-We had something before and we don't anymore therefore the change is bad

 

I know it sounds like it's all over the place but most or all of those statements are true or fall into some sort of gray area. 

I won't bore you with a wall of text but think of some battles like tier 3 shadow rook where speed determines whether or not you need a road. The overall damage buff makes up for the lack of speed, when speed only made a small difference in terms of damage dealt.

There is very important context that's needed, but it's not so simple to say in just a few words. 

I don't care about the speed anymore personally, but Wolfgang has had the least impactful rework of all, imo. 

If we could walk with the dumbbells out at less efficiency it would be more fun, well to me. 

On 12/20/2021 at 3:31 PM, Koomin said:

Shockingly rude of Klei to be interested in the characters in their game having a chance to shine equally. 

If everyone is special no one is.

They all shine in different aspects of the game. Someone that has no interest in fighting bosses has no use for Wolfgang. Not to mention there are characters that have better teamwork synergy for battles like Wigfrid. Wolfgang has worse returns the more people there are in battle. 

Quote

These arguments have reached the point of becoming super poorly thought out and aggressive towards developers, and this thread has become a pretty good example of why many game developers don't communicate with their player base.  I wouldn't be shocked if we don't see them come back into the forums to engage in discussion about their changes after this.

Nothing of what I said was aggressive. You are the one not contributing to the conversation actually. 

[sudoku]

7 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Nothing of what I said was aggressive. You are the one not contributing to conversation actually. 

Its very much an opinion of any criticism is bad. Most of the posts in here are want most developers want - constructive criticism. No one is bullying klei or trying to hurt their feelings; its a thoughtful discussion providing feedback.

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

your point is perfectly fine OP.

the only thing I would be ashamed of is your horrid thread title

Still waiting on someone to tell me I wrote hand instead of had. 

Just my mind deteriorating as I age, no biggy. 

[sudoku]

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Still waiting on someone to tell me I wrote hand instead of had. 

Don't feet bad, it happens.

[HowlVoid]

16 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Its very much an opinion of any criticism is bad. Most of the posts in here are want most developers want - constructive criticism. No one is bullying klei or trying to hurt their feelings; its a thoughtful discussion providing feedback.

I can understand it though, tone is very hard to interprete in writing. Especially if everyone just assumes you're angry. 

I'll speak for myself, but I guess I can sound like I'm yelling? 

Like when I said "You don't cut of your legs to get more use out of your arms" 

I can be very descriptive and heavily use metaphors, idioms, etc but everything I'm writing is in a calm demeanor. In no way meant harm or insult to the devs. It's like people from the Bronx, cussing is necessary in normal conversation, but it don't mean nothing. 

Lol idk if I'm hurting or helping my case, I'll shut up now...

[Pig Princess]

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

The most popular character in the game is Wendy and it's because she trivializes every single non boss encounter in the game. Hounds? Gone. Spiders? Gone. Pigs? Gone. 

She doesn't trivialize every single non-boss encounter, only hounds, spiders and bees, and even then one needs to do bare minimum (choose correct aggo mode of Abigail, manipulate player's position to no being hit). In case spider warriors Abigail can be overwhelmed as well as in case of hounds (when she has about 1/2 health or less). For pigmen (werepigs), clockworks and frogs Wendy needs to actively help Abigail, in latter 2 cases use potions (ruins clearing, frog rain). Then there are also debth worms, as for monkeys, Abigail still needs to be in correct aggro mode and eventually elixirs. She helps a lot in these cases, but doesn't trivialize them.

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Then nerfing Wolfgang for something so trivial, because you want other characters to shine? That's a big, big slap in the face to Wolfgang mains. I honestly thought you guys had a better reason than that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this since I am Wolfgang enthusiast (+ like to play Wilba in DS who has similar demanding gameplay loop and speed/hunger/damage theme) and read a lot of Wolfgang mains concerns.

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

My final note is that I think the team went about nerfing the wrong thing... I think his damage should have been nerfed a bit honestly to what the average was pre rework, like 85%? And then expanded from there.

With this I strongly disagree since 2x damage allows to cross some damage tresholds and it's one of the few unique things about Wolfgang. I think it would be better to add interesting and engaging downside if the goal is to lessen power level (like Warly's or Wormwood's downside). Here are my reasonings regarding powers level:

Spoiler

 

 

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

x6 damage didnt get nerfed

 

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

or just change how volt goat jelly works so we dont fight with 20k monsters dealing 400 damage per second...

Don't nerf Warly please, since I saw a lot of suggestions about volt goat jelly giving flat damage instead of multiplier. It would also remove fun of deciding how to benefit the most out of it (what weapon to choose and what character to feed with it). 6x damage is not that strong as it seems considering there is a simple formula [resources used]=[boss health]*[factor of transition between measure units]/[damage multiplier], e.i. since boss health and factor are constants it's y=const/x function, which is a basic hyperbola and x being damage multiplier. The more you increase x, the less y is affected compared to previous step.

I play Warly a lot and don't mind giving volt goat jelly to Wolfgang or Wigfrid, on the contrary, I like how game encourages efficient, but not selfish choice.

[CremeLover]

6 hours ago, zarklord_klei said:

To give an example, lets take a look at the competitive scene for Super Smash Bros Brawl, in that game there are 35 characters you can choose from, but in the competitive scene you only have two options(if you're wanting to win): Meta Knight (the literal best character in the game) and Olimar (the only character with a doable matchup against Meta Knight), so despite having 35 characters, those are really fake choices, and in reality there is 2 choices(again if you want to win).

Now I am by no means saying the DST is a competitive game, or that DST needs to be balanced like a competitive game, but if a measure of balance isn't provided, our cast of 18 characters would suffer the same problem. While there are 18 characters, if you only had 1 or 2 "real" choices, we have defeated the purpose of having a wide variety of characters.
With that said, unless everything is completely identical there will always be a "best character" and a "worst character", but if the best character isn't significantly greater than any other character, and the worst character isn't significantly worse than any other character you have a game with lots of compelling character choices.

Now was Wolfgang the "meta knight" of our game? Kinda, obviously the parallel isn't perfect, and the game isn't competitive, but he had a lot of traits that pushed him into that direction pre rework, and while people can play the game however they want, its not a good look for our game to have such a large range of characters, all completely overshadowed by pre rework Wolfgang, when he is effectively the best to second best at just about anything (as an example, in farming Wormwood is the best, but the completely free 1.25x speed boost he got meant that even though not by much, Wolfgang would consistently be the second best at farming, obviously there are exceptions, like if you want to use Wickerbottom's books to grow the crops, but there are limitations on those that might make them undesirable in certain situations), again there are lots of exceptions, but as a general rule you could look at any task in the game, and Wolfgang would probably be the best or second best character to use for it(because of his speed).

When you look at it from that perspective, it becomes clear that he needed to lose his speed, not because he was OP, but because he was significantly overshadowing other characters. In terms of a single "best character for doing it all" it was pretty hard to say that Wolfgang wasn't that character, and breaking that and making what your planning on doing be relevant for picking your character(especially at the start of the world when you won't have the celestial portal), is a great thing in my opinion.

With all due respect, I believe this was phrased poorly.

The reasons given for the removal of the speed can be interpreted as "Klei wants players to pick other characters out of this rework".

This combined with the Wolfgang rework being the one that expands the least out of a character's kit could make some people feel they have been "cheated" out of an actual rework.

Spoiler

Winona -> catapults and lights

Willow -> Bernie

Woodie -> New forms, each with new special abilities.

Wendy -> New abigail mechanics + elixirs

Wigfrig -> Songs that have new effects

Wes -> Ballons that do have some new effect

Webber -> new items to control spiders, new spiders

Wolfgang -> Gymnasium but it has the same effect as food did before

I do agree his speed was a bit too much if we add it to everything else, and the x2 multiplier is something really really powerful, and as such, it should require some work to achieve, and I think you hit the nail in the head on the rework on the subject, but I also have to admit that, other than the well executed tweaks and the great art and animations (and the short), there's not much of a bone here to pick compared to the previous works of the studio.

I'm not much of a fan of Wolfgang playstyle, so I don't know what could have been done to represent this ingame other than combat related, maybe a similar thing to the Moving Box mod that allows you to move existing structures? The ability to wear a backpack and armor at the same time? (tho the UI rework could prove a hassle, for both Klei and modders).

Just what I perceive is the issue people are complaining about, and are taking it on the speed, since is an actual mechanic Wolfgang lost in exchange for QoL that didn't make everyone happy.

 

 

Also, this might not be the right place to ask, but since there seems to be concerns about balance within Klei staff, do you think there's a chance of doing some slight tweaks to previous characters in a QoL patch? Nothing too big of course, just numbers change. Is a bit sad that characters are something that becomes almost forgotten after their rework has passed, and take a second look at the undertuned (Winona) and overtuned (Wendy)

[Pikapikap]

hot thread

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Pikapikap said:

hot thread

Hot, like my grandma. Nice.

[Mike23Ua]

This thread has gotten weird.. but I do find it nice the Klei devs give out their own perspective on why the changes were made: I also think it would be nice to get a “clue” at what those changes could mean in the “Long-Term”

They don’t have to spoil it: they can just say: “We have some cool stuff coming up later that may or may not interact with the changes we made here.”

for example: how they Added Water Striders and Nurse Spiders which impact Webbers gameplay.

Same can be done with Wolfgang and future stuffs requiring being “Mighty”

[Mantispidae]

I think when everyones been running in circles for weeks about if Wolfgang does or doesn't deserve speed it's pretty clear there is no "objectively right call" to make.

Except Mine. Give Wilson the speed boost. Its like when two kids are fighting over a toy so you just give it to a random other kid. 

[HowlVoid]

38 minutes ago, Mantispidae said:

I think when everyones been running in circles for weeks about if Wolfgang does or doesn't deserve speed it's pretty clear there is no "objectively right call" to make.

Except Mine. Give Wilson the speed boost. Its like when two kids are fighting over a toy so you just give it to a random other kid. 

You're a genius. 

[Erineyes7]

11 hours ago, zarklord_klei said:

To give an example, lets take a look at the competitive scene for Super Smash Bros Brawl, in that game there are 35 characters you can choose from, but in the competitive scene you only have two options(if you're wanting to win): Meta Knight (the literal best character in the game) and Olimar (the only character with a doable matchup against Meta Knight), so despite having 35 characters, those are really fake choices, and in reality there is 2 choices(again if you want to win).

Now I am by no means saying the DST is a competitive game, or that DST needs to be balanced like a competitive game, but if a measure of balance isn't provided, our cast of 18 characters would suffer the same problem. While there are 18 characters, if you only had 1 or 2 "real" choices, we have defeated the purpose of having a wide variety of characters.
With that said, unless everything is completely identical there will always be a "best character" and a "worst character", but if the best character isn't significantly greater than any other character, and the worst character isn't significantly worse than any other character you have a game with lots of compelling character choices.

Now was Wolfgang the "meta knight" of our game? Kinda, obviously the parallel isn't perfect, and the game isn't competitive, but he had a lot of traits that pushed him into that direction pre rework, and while people can play the game however they want, its not a good look for our game to have such a large range of characters, all completely overshadowed by pre rework Wolfgang, when he is effectively the best to second best at just about anything (as an example, in farming Wormwood is the best, but the completely free 1.25x speed boost he got meant that even though not by much, Wolfgang would consistently be the second best at farming, obviously there are exceptions, like if you want to use Wickerbottom's books to grow the crops, but there are limitations on those that might make them undesirable in certain situations), again there are lots of exceptions, but as a general rule you could look at any task in the game, and Wolfgang would probably be the best or second best character to use for it(because of his speed).

When you look at it from that perspective, it becomes clear that he needed to lose his speed, not because he was OP, but because he was significantly overshadowing other characters. In terms of a single "best character for doing it all" it was pretty hard to say that Wolfgang wasn't that character, and breaking that and making what your planning on doing be relevant for picking your character(especially at the start of the world when you won't have the celestial portal), is a great thing in my opinion.

I have to combat this smash claim, it's a terrible take. Brawl is a fighting game where the only goal is to kill your opponent, faster frame data and higher kill power matter alot. This part I can see in Wolfgang, he was faster and hit harder, pretty simple, but you didn't bring up is that DST has many areas of gameplay, farming, building, and most of the combat against spiders and pigs was already easy, he just made it faster.

He was good at combat, but so many other characters have perks to help them in different ways, and that's what makes me pick other characters. Wolfgang is what I can only call raw power, no other character could match his double damage and speed boost for most fights, but in turn, he was weak in every other aspect, and his hunger drain was pretty vicious when mighty, so it was quite the trade off.

I don't think your intentions were ever bad, but the execution just wasn't great for a lot of the people who really liked the way he played, and I certainly ask you to reconsider how it was done, I've seen plenty of good ideas on the forums, and I'm sure you and the team can do good with this one, it just needs a different view imo.

Spoiler

Also hey, when Maxwell gets reworked, pls don't change his HP and Sanity regen, thank you if you bothered to read my crappy post, I just feel the need to speak my mind sometime, and I hope you understand. I hold no ill will, I just want those who liked the old Wolfgang to be happy (myself included). I hope you guys have a wonderful Christmas, and a happy new year, you guys are amazing, keep it cool!

 

[Bugsworth]

22 hours ago, zarklord_klei said:

so despite having 35 characters, those are really fake choices, and in reality there is 2 choices(again if you want to win).

not everyone wants to win, id say its better to have fun. besides, if you want balance in a game, not everything needs to be equal. to make balance with 100 Kg on each side, you don't need 4 blocks of 50 Kg, it can balance with 90 10 and 50 50.

[Dextops]

17 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Hot, like my grandma. Nice.

wait a minute

[Masked Koopa]

On 12/21/2021 at 7:27 AM, zarklord_klei said:

To give an example, lets take a look at the competitive scene for Super Smash Bros Brawl, in that game there are 35 characters you can choose from, but in the competitive scene you only have two options(if you're wanting to win): Meta Knight (the literal best character in the game) and Olimar (the only character with a doable matchup against Meta Knight), so despite having 35 characters, those are really fake choices, and in reality there is 2 choices(again if you want to win).

Now I am by no means saying the DST is a competitive game, or that DST needs to be balanced like a competitive game, but if a measure of balance isn't provided, our cast of 18 characters would suffer the same problem. While there are 18 characters, if you only had 1 or 2 "real" choices, we have defeated the purpose of having a wide variety of characters.
With that said, unless everything is completely identical there will always be a "best character" and a "worst character", but if the best character isn't significantly greater than any other character, and the worst character isn't significantly worse than any other character you have a game with lots of compelling character choices.

Now was Wolfgang the "meta knight" of our game? Kinda, obviously the parallel isn't perfect, and the game isn't competitive, but he had a lot of traits that pushed him into that direction pre rework, and while people can play the game however they want, its not a good look for our game to have such a large range of characters, all completely overshadowed by pre rework Wolfgang, when he is effectively the best to second best at just about anything (as an example, in farming Wormwood is the best, but the completely free 1.25x speed boost he got meant that even though not by much, Wolfgang would consistently be the second best at farming, obviously there are exceptions, like if you want to use Wickerbottom's books to grow the crops, but there are limitations on those that might make them undesirable in certain situations), again there are lots of exceptions, but as a general rule you could look at any task in the game, and Wolfgang would probably be the best or second best character to use for it(because of his speed).

When you look at it from that perspective, it becomes clear that he needed to lose his speed, not because he was OP, but because he was significantly overshadowing other characters. In terms of a single "best character for doing it all" it was pretty hard to say that Wolfgang wasn't that character, and breaking that and making what your planning on doing be relevant for picking your character(especially at the start of the world when you won't have the celestial portal), is a great thing in my opinion.

Sorry mate, but that just isn't going to fly. Can you please explain to me, in what universe does Wanda not overshadow literally every other character in the late game? She's so far above the rest of the cast when it comes to practicality and efficiency it's not even funny. Other characters have to get good world gen to not spend long periods of time walking to and from ruins, lunar island, atrium, etc, while wanda can instantly go to and from those places, literally for free. And yes, she can share her power, but that doesn't exactly detract from the fact that she's practically mandatory late game, and has a massive and ridiculously noticeable imbalance of power with her watches. It's not like this is even her only trait, there's already an interesting character with the age mechanic and the backstep watches. If there's any character that's the meta knight of DST it's Wanda, at least in the late game. 

[Yuuko]

55 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

Sorry mate, but that just isn't going to fly. Can you please explain to me, in what universe does Wanda not overshadow literally every other character in the late game? She's so far above the rest of the cast when it comes to practicality and efficiency it's not even funny. Other characters have to get good world gen to not spend long periods of time walking to and from ruins, lunar island, atrium, etc, while wanda can instantly go to and from those places, literally for free. And yes, she can share her power, but that doesn't exactly detract from the fact that she's practically mandatory late game, and has a massive and ridiculously noticeable imbalance of power with her watches. It's not like this is even her only trait, there's already an interesting character with the age mechanic and the backstep watches. If there's any character that's the meta knight of DST it's Wanda, at least in the late game. 

srsly - this is what really baffles me.  After the Wendy refresh, and releasing Wanda I didn't think there was any reason to nerf Wolfgang anymore.  While he used to stick out as "the" damage dealer, with an honorable mention going to Wigfrid, with Wanda's release Wolfgang is basically relegated to speed runs because he still didn't have setup.  Now... just... why would I ever pick Wolfgang?  What does he actually bring to the table?  His damage is good, but the extra investment in gyms, time wasted getting mighty, STILL needing to manage hunger, etc...  just... whY?  What did we actually *gain* with this refresh?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

maybe the nerf comes because most content creators used wolfgang for their videos which doesnt let the game in a good spot for people who dont know about the game

if your first encounter with a game is watching every streamer and youtuber using the same character you might lose interest in the game thinking that is an unbalanced game or whatever

[Capybara007]

Very specific point but sure ig

[Pig Princess]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

if your first encounter with a game is watching every streamer and youtuber using the same character you might lose interest in the game thinking that is an unbalanced game or whatever

I can't say for absolutely everyone, but I watched every Joeshmorecoolstuff video with majority of them being Wolfgang rushes/survival and it made me interested in DST (I played DS only at that time), moreover, I picked other characters for DST than Wolfgang (Maxwell, Wendy, Wickerbottom, Wigfrid). Same for when I first saw DS: even though I first saw it when irl acquaintance played it as Wilson (horribly, died first season often) I was neither stuck with Wilson, nor with that DLC, nor was I thinking that game is unplayable and my fate is to die first season.

Edit: there were also Wes endless bosses run, but it's modded and I knew it's not vanilla experience; I saw Wes rushes and Warly runs much later than Wolfgang ones, when I was playing DST already.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

I can't say for absolutely everyone, but I watched every Joeshmorecoolstuff video with majority of them being Wolfgang rushes/survival and it made me interested in DST (I played DS only at that time), moreover, I picked other characters for DST than Wolfgang (Maxwell, Wendy, Wickerbottom, Wigfrid). Same for when I first saw DS: even though I first saw it when irl acquaintance played it as Wilson (horribly, died first season often) I was neither stuck with Wilson, nor with that DLC, nor was I thinking that game is unplayable and my fate is to die first season.

Edit: there were also Wes endless bosses run, but it's modded and I knew it's not vanilla experience; I saw Wes rushes and Warly runs much later than Wolfgang ones, when I was playing DST already.

im not saying that always happens but i can understand if the change was because of that, not that it can be applied to me or to you or that is something to worry about

klei can announce that there are X characters but it wont matter if most of the content is recorded using only 3 characters

i watched joes videos too i didnt get stuck on wolgang but personal experiences doesnt matter

also, as you said, you already knew the game, same for me, so watching people using X character doesnt affect our purchase. Im talking about people who know the game via youtube or twich

and about other kind of runs, for sure there is other characters being used but how many? if we make a chart i bet my house that >90% of the content is made using wolfgang which i dont care but i can see klei being worried about how the game looks for people who dont know about the game. We should be able to see throw others eyes instead of getting stuck with one idea that comes from our personal perspective

just trying to give sense to Wolfgang nerf and what zark said (which some people didnt understood apparently, too much tunnel vision about "comparing dst with a fighting game" instead of understanding the idea behind it).

this doesnt mean i support it or i think was something to worry about (im tired of justified my words so nobody is offended...this start to feel like Twitter...)

[sudoku]

I just think klei doesnt like to rock the boat.

The popular opinion and stigma was that Wolf was OP.  So it seemed fairly easy for them to go in with this in mind. The rework is very similar in this regard to Wigfrid. The popular opinion many had was that she was perfectly balanced and the ideal, so klei went in and did very little for the rework.