So the Twins are now another source of renewable gears?

[Mike23Ua]

I spent a lot of time thinking about how do you Nerf them without directly nerfing them- like I mean- They are designed to target other bosses.. that part is intended, they are ALSO designed to spawn onto a random player in the server to give the same feeling they give in Terraria-

But in DST.. it’s a griefers favorite new tool- and it’s as simple to set up as a single piece of nightmare fuel..

it needs a change- One that doesn’t directly Nerf the Terrariums bosses, but does require summoning them to require a few more ingredients then a single NM fuel.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

DST is a quote “Uncompromising Wilderness Survival Game” But I think having a boss randomly spawn down upon your face other players can summon may be just a little more then most players bargained for.

So I would suggest make summoning them require a little bit more effort.

or make them focus the player who touch the terrarium and others in range of the light circle(?)

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

I spent a lot of time thinking about how do you Nerf them without directly nerfing them- like I mean- They are designed to target other bosses.. that part is intended, they are ALSO designed to spawn onto a random player in the server to give the same feeling they give in Terraria-

But in DST.. it’s a griefers favorite new tool- and it’s as simple to set up as a single piece of nightmare fuel..

it needs a change- One that doesn’t directly Nerf the Terrariums bosses, but does require summoning them to require a few more ingredients then a single NM fuel.

NO

if klei is worried about the dps they can deal they could simply nerf their mob damage instead of annoying all kind of players just because of few using it as weapon and even fewer complaining about it

[Mr Giggio]

The twins are a really spicy fight to call them "farm" and sincerelly i think 3% chance tumbleweed isnt that bad if u base in df desert but yeah they r renewable to anyone who wants to break a lot of armor or a flawless dance fight kitting 'em for some gears

[maradyne]

...I think it'd be fair to leave the Eye's mechanics as-is, but have the Twins spawn specifically on the person that socketed the Nightmare Fuel.
If they leave the server before the spawn, it could pop back out of the Terrarium.

Ultimately the problem is that people don't know how to run away from things that they can't immediately cave in the face of, but that's unlikely to change.

[ALCRD]

3 hours ago, MrSoratori said:

The twins are a really spicy fight to call them "farm" and sincerelly i think 3% chance tumbleweed isnt that bad if u base in df desert but yeah they r renewable to anyone who wants to break a lot of armor or a flawless dance fight kitting 'em for some gears

But i never used the word "farm"

I just said that they are another renewable source of gears on the surface.

3 hours ago, MrSoratori said:

i think 3% chance tumbleweed isnt that bad

1% not 3%

[ALCRD]

14 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

ALSO designed to spawn onto a random player in the server to give the same feeling they give in Terraria-

In Terraria bosses summoned by a player via boss spawner item spawn near that player and not randomly. So it's not like Terraria.

However people using bosses to kill other players cause some of them can be deaggroed and target diffefent player.

That's very Terrraria like. People often use this strat in free for all PVP in Terraria  

[Mr Giggio]

On 11/21/2021 at 8:42 PM, ALCRD said:

But i never used the word "farm"

I just said that they are another renewable source of gears on the surface.

1% not 3%

1% in 3 items which drop from, so 3%.

[HowlVoid]

On 11/23/2021 at 11:53 AM, MrSoratori said:

1% in 3 items which drop from, so 3%.

That's not how chance works, what you have are 3 separate instances of 1% not 3%.  

"Adding" those 1% together actually corresponds to the probability of getting 3 gears from one tumble weed. Which is .0001%.

[ALCRD]

On 11/23/2021 at 7:53 PM, MrSoratori said:

1% in 3 items which drop from, so 3%.

No. It doesn't work like this.

[Notecja]

1 hour ago, ALCRD said:

No. It doesn't work like this.

Wait... If we think, that wiki is true...

1. Every item is generated independently.

2. Generates 3 items.

3. Table shows chances per 1 item.

so we have 1% chance per 1 of 3 items? Right? Three chances of 1% to get certain item.

so is like 1/100 + 1/100 +1/100 for this case to get 1 gears... = 3/100 

(and 1/100 * 1/100 * 1/100 it's to get 3 gears at once)

[ALCRD]

48 minutes ago, Notecja said:

Wait... If we think, that wiki is true...

1. Every item is generated independently.

2. Generates 3 items.

3. Table shows chances per 1 item.

so we have 1% chance per 1 of 3 items? Right? Three chances of 1% to get certain item.

so is like 1/100 + 1/100 +1/100 for this case to get 1 gears... = 3/100 

(and 1/100 * 1/100 * 1/100 it's to get 3 gears at once)

Refer to HowlVoid's post. Chance probability for that happening is way lower than 3% or even 1% due to the reason these are counted separately and have 1% base chance to drop one of the items.

So it's 1% for a single gear and much less than that for additional gear or extremely rarely super lucky to get all 3 exact same rolls from a 1% chance each of the 3 separate rolls.

It doesn't add up to 3% overall chance like some may think. It's a little more complicated than that.

[QuartzBeam]

1 hour ago, Notecja said:

Wait... If we think, that wiki is true...

1. Every item is generated independently.

2. Generates 3 items.

3. Table shows chances per 1 item.

so we have 1% chance per 1 of 3 items? Right? Three chances of 1% to get certain item.

so is like 1/100 + 1/100 +1/100 for this case to get 1 gears... = 3/100 

(and 1/100 * 1/100 * 1/100 it's to get 3 gears at once)

Probabilities don't add up like that. I can't be bothered to do math right now, but if you wanna calculate the actual probability, look up the formula for a binomial distribution.

EDIT: I lied about not wanting to do math right now. Take this with a grain of salt cause I'm on a phone calculator, but the chance to get at least 1 gear when you open a tumbleweed is ~0.059 or 5.9%.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

On 11/21/2021 at 5:41 PM, Mike23Ua said:

So I would suggest make summoning them require a little bit more effort.

instead of making them just spawn where are summoned....

klei wont change the cost since is 1 piece of NF because is what has more sense, changing it just because the boss can spawn near other players is like increasing the cost of lighters because  pyromaniacs exists

[cropo]

Besides the Fuel Weaver and Champion I believe all raid bosses are available to be fought at no cost right off the bat besides some superficial resources like a hammer for the Bee Queen and it makes sense that the Weaver and Champion would require extra effort to summon as they are both the ''end bosses'' of sorts.

 

Having the twins, who are a raid boss, require more materials for summoning them because they can be used other ways isn't really thematic.  I also don't like making changes to a game specifically to counter griefers because it should be the server owners responsibility not to associate with those kinds of people, and should be a given assumption when making servers open to any type of person. No sense in limiting player choice to stop an unstoppable force when you can just avoid it.

 

Also doesn't seem like a big deal to use them to fight other bosses. They only stay out for a certain amount of time, unlikely to be enough to kill a boss. You can't wander too far away from the action or else the boss unspawns and heals, they despawn at daytime and if you don't immediately summon them again the next night you have to wait another 15 days to use them again.  I kinda welcome it as a potential tool for players to exploit.  I've heard tales of some people telelocating an enraged klaus to the celestial champion to kill it so should Klaus be nerfed as well?

[Majestix]

3 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

Probabilities don't add up like that. I can't be bothered to do math right now, but if you wanna calculate the actual probability, look up the formula for a binomial distribution.

EDIT: I lied about not wanting to do math right now. Take this with a grain of salt cause I'm on a phone calculator, but the chance to get at least 1 gear when you open a tumbleweed is ~0.059 or 5.9%.

This is incorrect. And it's not that complicated. And you don't need to know anything about binomial distributions.

The chance that the first item from a tumbleweed is not a gear is 0.99. The same for the 2nd and the 3rd. These events are independent, so the chance that all three occur, i.e. that you get no gear from any of them is 0.99³ = 0.970299. The chance that you do get at least one gear is the complement of that, i.e. 1-0.970299 = 0.029701, i.e. just under 3%.

[Notecja]

1 hour ago, Majestix said:

This is incorrect. And it's not that complicated. And you don't need to know anything about binomial distributions.

The chance of not getting a gear from the first tumbleweed is 0.99. The same for the 2nd and the 3rd. These events are independent, so the chance that all three occur, i.e. that you get no gear from any of them is 0.99³ = 0.970299. The chance that you do get at least one gear is the complement of that, i.e. 1-0.970299 = 0.029701, i.e. just under 3%.

is 40% for twigs + 40% for grass (80% by now), 2% for seeds, then 15x1% (so far 97% in total), then sum of many tiny chances, which is equal to 3% (100% in total).

so they showed possible loots per of one item of three items in tumbleweed, not for three tumbleweeds? (But guess doesnt make much difference from your solution)

[Majestix]

4 minutes ago, Notecja said:

is 40% for twigs + 40% for grass (80% by now), 2% for seeds, then 15x1% (so far 97% in total), then sum of many tiny chances, which is equal to 3% (100% in total).

so they showed possible loots per of one item of three items in tumbleweed, not for three tumbleweeds?

Yes, sorry, I should have said "first item from tumbleweed, 2nd item, 3rd item", rather than "1st tumbleweed, 2nd tumbleweed...". I have edited.

[Notecja]

2 minutes ago, Majestix said:

Yes, sorry, I should have said "first item from tumbleweed, 2nd item, 3rd item", rather than "1st tumbleweed, 2nd tumbleweed...". I have edited.

Anyway thanks, maybe I was't fully correct but at least I wasn't as far as some though. 

[Majestix]

9 minutes ago, Notecja said:

Anyway thanks, maybe I was't fully correct but at least I wasn't as far as some though. 

You are welcome!

Indeed, adding probabilities does work if the events are mutually exclusive. For example the probability that if you roll a fair die, you get either a 1 or a 2 is 1/6 + 1/6. The reason it doesn't work here is because the events are not mutually exclusive: you might get a gear from the 1st item and from the 2nd item. Thus, when you add 1% + 1% for the probability that you get at least 1 gear, you have double counted the possibility that you might get 2 gears. In these cases, it is easier to switch to the complementary probabilities, like in the example, and compute the probability that both (negated) events occur instead of the probability that at least one of two events occurs.

[Thalkas]

On 11/21/2021 at 7:59 AM, Theukon-dos said:

It's not. Source:

 

My personal theory is that the delay to the crossover update was on Re-logic's end. So not having anything else to do, Klei added the twins as a last-minute addition. Hence why they don't feel nearly as fleshed out as The Eye of Terror.

Well these Twins are more similar to Terraria's ones but I think this fight will be too problematic for newbie or medium players and maybe for few old players. New Shield is useful and funny thing but Mask is basically dumb, I was wish for additional "thing" while wearing both of them eg. option to charge like in Forge after using spear or had chance to negate incoming dmg by any percent or simple dodge.

I can't understand one why Klei didn't use this charge mechanic from Forge in shield? They had literally done mechanic and could just to include it. At this point I feel like they made these bosses too quickly, I literally more liked old Klei when they made polished updates with longer time to wait. This update is just small mistake and shows now how Klei's working with timetable with deadlines. People were hyped by trailer to get new items, new mobs, bosses. And we get basically two bosses (three if you can count Twins as two), two new items where one is nice additional to game but second is just quite trashy AND a lot of skins which were the biggest disappointment 'cause they are skins. It seems a lot of stuff but it's again empty?

[Theukon-dos]

37 minutes ago, Thalkas said:

Well these Twins are more similar to Terraria's ones but I think this fight will be too problematic for newbie or medium players and maybe for few old players.

They're 2 seperate bosses with 10k HP each. Newbie players arn't going to be fighting the twins anyways. And for Medium/old players, while the kiting pattern presented by the lasers and flames might take some adjusting at first, I found that they resulted in a very enjoyable kiting pattern.

[HowlVoid]

5 hours ago, Majestix said:

This is incorrect. And it's not that complicated. And you don't need to know anything about binomial distributions.

The chance that the first item from a tumbleweed is not a gear is 0.99. The same for the 2nd and the 3rd. These events are independent, so the chance that all three occur, i.e. that you get no gear from any of them is 0.99³ = 0.970299. The chance that you do get at least one gear is the complement of that, i.e. 1-0.970299 = 0.029701, i.e. just under 3%.

.99 is 99%, .01 is 1%, I messed up my math but I corrected it, .01 to the third power is .000001 or .0001% so I was off by one 0.

[QuartzBeam]

5 hours ago, Majestix said:

This is incorrect. And it's not that complicated. And you don't need to know anything about binomial distributions.

The chance that the first item from a tumbleweed is not a gear is 0.99. The same for the 2nd and the 3rd. These events are independent, so the chance that all three occur, i.e. that you get no gear from any of them is 0.99³ = 0.970299. The chance that you do get at least one gear is the complement of that, i.e. 1-0.970299 = 0.029701, i.e. just under 3%.

Oh, yeah, my bad. I've not touched probability theory in years.

To be fair, I did offer a warning.

[Starlogy]

3 hours ago, Thalkas said:

New Shield is useful and funny thing but Mask is basically dumb

Wot? How is a Football Helmet you can recharge with food dumb? Sounds like a cool and good reward from a boss fight to me.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Starlogy said:

Wot? How is a Football Helmet you can recharge with food dumb? Sounds like a cool and good reward from a boss fight to me.

and more for a boss that you can defeat in the early days