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Question to Klei about Crow and Crab People


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Will you ever expand their lore?

Unlike other seasonal events the Cawnival feels like an actual lore addition. Other events were always taken lightly like: "Yeah, yeah durring this time of the year the Constant becomes cheery with a bunch of decorations appearing everywhere and festive creatures roaming the land, yeah sure Klei." 

Cawnival with its crow people is an actual piece of lore that builds up dst's universe.

And so I am disappointed that the crows only talk about the cawnival itself. Not only do their quotes get repetitive quick, since there are like 8 of them after the tree is finished, but they don't bring anything interesting to the table.

Perhaps with next Cawnivall update in 2022 you could bring more lore. Idk, maybe adult crows could also visit and shed some light on Crows' land.

The same can be said about Pearl. While we got a good idea of her relationship with Crab King, we still don't know where Crabs originate from and how exactly do they fit into the timeline (in another thread I explained how Pearl living on a piece of the 'Moon' is a mess for the timeline). Even after she opens up to us Crab Lady doesn't say anything about her own people.

Those 2 humanoid species are more mysterious to us, players than the Ancients, which is weird considering that we have living represantatives of the former two.

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I don't believe there will be any meaningful lore expansion regarding Crow or Crab people. Pearl and DST's Wagstaff projection are NPCs fulfilling partially the function of DS Adventure Mode - since in past quite the number of people demanded for such a thing in DST context via these very forums. Hence Pearl and Crab King main roles are to provide a quest-adventure, and just that. On a smaller scale and event-dependent, Midsummer Cawnival's Corvus Goodfeather is another NPC with micro-quests (amounting to the setup of its Cawnival), hence his role is similar to Pearl's and DST's Wagstaff: pseudo-Adventure Mode. There is a chance some future Sea content update may introduce a Crab-people mob (with inherent lore bits) akin Pigmen or Bunnymen, but don't keep your hopes high. As for Crow-people, most likely will be limited, self-contained to said Midsummer Cawnival. Hope at least a future Cawnival update will bring some kind of quest-boss like Winter Feast's Klaus, probably crow-related, and then other tidbits of Crow lore may come.

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I would like to have expanded crab people (southpark_crabpeople.mp4) maybe they are even related to the ancients or mants (arthropods) but crow people, even if i love them, seems like something included just to fill a role, they are just nomad showmans kinda like gypsis in previous centuries

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2 hours ago, Szczuku said:

And so I am disappointed that the crows only talk about the cawnival itself. Not only do their quotes get repetitive quick, since there are like 8 of them after the tree is finished, but they don't bring anything interesting to the table.

Yes please. I just hope next year the kids and Corvus get much more dialogues, it's saddening that you often have the same quote multiple times on the screen at once when you barely have a bunch of crow kids, feels quite uninspired but this wasn't in the top priorities of the event I assume.

But uh, more on topic I think as RoT is over, the Constant's lore we'll get by now is not until important storyline character's refresh or the next update chapter given there is one (probably, right ?)

Also I was thinking you were mentioning the Rock Lobsters before I see Pearl... :dejection: these bad boys are surely super ancient and have seen lots of things going under here, too bad they don't talk.

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18 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

An ilustrated crow filled with tattoos xD

Someone worse than Maxwell. :wilson_sneaky:

4 minutes ago, ADM said:

Yes please. I just hope next year the kids and Corvus get much more dialogues, it's saddening that you often have the same quote multiple times on the screen at once when you barely have a bunch of crow kids, feels quite uninspired but this wasn't in the top priorities of the event I assume.

Yeah, and only three colors. We might get more colored outfit crows and maybe specific crow sprites that are different from first year?

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21 minutes ago, thegreatJash said:

I remember seeing something like that once, but forgot about it. Klei couldn't have that put that quote without some purpose.

well wortox is a furry bastard who never explains his sentences and knows everything guy probably knows all my credit cards and bank info which definitely exist because i am responsible enough to have a bank account

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5 hours ago, Szczuku said:

(in another thread I explained how Pearl living on a piece of the 'Moon' is a mess for the timeline)

How is it a mess? Her quotes heavily imply that she just moved onto this moon chunk after it fell out of the sky, and that she's unfamiliar with the moon in general.

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48 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

How is it a mess? Her quotes heavily imply that she just moved onto this moon chunk after it fell out of the sky, and that she's unfamiliar with the moon in general.

Spoiler

She's an enigma. Says that she didn't notice gestalts untill she has already settled there. Talks about how she used to have flower garden and berry bushes. All of those things mean that she (and crab king I assume) had basically built an entire home with gardens and hooks after the lunar islands were created and that enough time has passed for those things to decay. I guess either time works very differently in the Constant or years have passed between Turn of Tides and She Sells Seashells canonically.

Perhaps they lived gestalt-free for a while and then Moon's influence affected them by forcing Crab King to go and find the altar piece. Since then everything withered away, Pearl aged, CK mutated and went insane.

Either way it seems that those 'sudden events happening in dst's lore' are actually taking years. As in the ocean becoming sailable took years after Moon's piece landed.

How else do you explain Crabs' story arc without wondering how come the survivord didn't find them b4 hermit island was abandoned.

 

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30 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Says that she didn't notice gestalts untill she has already settled there. Talks about how she used to have flower garden and berry bushes. All of those things mean that she (and crab king I assume) had basically built an entire home with gardens and hooks after the lunar islands were created and that enough time has passed for those things to decay.

But how are you reaching the conclusion that these things HAD to have happened after the moon chunk fell down? DST's lore has always been super vague and it's not good to be so certain that something is absolutely one way and then say it makes a mess of the timeline. Pearl and Crab King are crabs, could they not have been out in the ocean living their lives away from the survivors this whole time? Maybe they lived on a different island before, or maybe the moon chunk even landed ON their old island and destroyed it all? There's a lot more options than the single one you're talking about here.

30 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

How else do you explain Crabs' story arc without wondering how come the survivord didn't find them b4 hermit island was abandoned.

The survivors never sailed until the lunar island's creation prompted them to go out to sea, unless you count the one time Wilson tried on his own and crashed in like an hour and then SW happened in an entirely different part of the world. They were never in a situation where they would find either of the crabs.

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So what do we know about Crowkind?

1. They like shiny things (being crows and all)
        "It wants something first... something shiny." - Wendy, exam. Hubbub for Grub
        "It won't let me play until I give it something shiny." - Wilson, exam. Eggs in a Basket

2. There might be more to Corvus Goodfeather than meets the eye
        "He's a rather curious character." - Wickerbottom, exam. CG
        "There's just somethin' about him I don't trust..." - Woodie, exam. CG (he doesn't trust birds at all, though)
        "It is I, a merry wanderer with feathers black as night!" - CG, Cawnival Announcement
        "I've been known by many names, but you may call me Corvus Goodfeather!" - CG, Cawnival Announcement
        "Goodfeather, hm? I think I know him by another name." - Wortox, exam. busy CG
        "How now, spirit? Whither wander you?" - Wortox, exam. CG

(Obviously interesting. So far the word "spirit" either describes Ghosts or Entities of Forest Magic. Even more interesting how Wortox doesn't call him "mortal" (unlike regular birds)

        "%s seems very in touch with the spirits of the forest." - Maxwell, exam. reviver Woodie

        "%s has excellent command of the spirit realm." - Maxwell, exam. reviver Wigfrid)


3. Crowkind may have access to (Forest) Magic
        "A fairy light to glow in the night." - Wortox, exam. Midsummer Night Light
        "It hath a feeling of magic about it." - Wigfrid, exam. Midsummer Night Light
        "Do you think it's powered by magic?" - Walter, exam. Midsummer Night Light

Of all kinds of magic known so far, the Night Light seems to belong in the Forest Magic category.


4. Crowkind may or may not be able to traverse worlds/(dimensions??)
        "How disappointing, the corvids seem to have migrated elsewhere." - Wickerbottom, NOCARNIVAL
        "I wonder where they've been hiding all this time." - Willow, exam. Crow Kid

Birds have been an enigma for a long time now. Maxwell is puzzled as to where most birds came from and how they entered his world. 

        "I don't know how they got here." - Maxwell, exam. Crow
        "I dont recognize that one - Maxwell, exam. Snowbird (DS)
        "You're new." - Maxwell, exam. Snowbird (DST)
        "How do these things keep getting into my world?" - Maxwell, exam. Canary

With Wes' trailer, we could assume that every bird came through a Portal at one time or another (like Crows did). However, given how much attention is given to birds being "out of place", there might be more going on.

Specifically, there are a few confirmed instances of creatures travelling through Dimensions (I don't count the Pig King travelling from Hamlet to the Mainland, as we have no canon confirmation on how Hamlet comes into play geographically [as far as I know])

        "They were already here when I arrived." - Maxwell, exam. Merms
        "Mermfolk have story passed down... about mouth in the sky..." - Wurt, exam. Dilapidated Cathedral
        "Many of our sick disappeared into the sea. Odd, that." - Pipton, Idle

        "The redbird comes from the fire lands" -Maxwell, exam. Redbird (possibly referencing the Forge, probably not though,)

        "How are birds getting in here?" - Maxwell, exam. Pigeon (The Gorge)


Assuming that the Merm-Story is canon, we know that merms travelled through "Dimensions/Gate Realms" by sea. However we assume the Dimensional structure to be, Klei hints at a "physical" connection between Gateway Realms, the Constant and possibly even Earth (Maybe still linked to the rifts between the Dimensions?). The Pigeon and Redbird quote could imply that inter-dimensional travel is not only possible by sea, but also through the sky. The Crowfolk "migrating" and "wandering" through worlds fits well with Corvus Goodfeathers curious acquaintanceship with Wortox.



Soooo I think the biggest Lore-Goldmine with the Cawnival and the introduction of sentient (!) birds is more information about the weird state of birds and their curious whereabouts! As such, I'm pretty stoked to see next years addition to the Cawnival.

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3 hours ago, Sunset Skye said:

...are crabs, could they not have been out in the ocean living their lives away from the survivors this whole time? Maybe they lived on a different island before, or maybe the moon chunk even landed ON their old island and destroyed it all? There's a lot more options than the single one you're talking about here.

The survivors never sailed until the lunar island's creation prompted them to go out to sea, unless you count the one time Wilson tried on his own and crashed in like an hour and then SW happened in an entirely different part of the world. They were never in a situation where they would find either of the crabs.

Except there's a major inadvertence right there, regarding global Constant's ocean before and after the "Moon" outer shell felt, best exemplified in below image:

cardboard-to-liquid_ocean.thumb.png.6097c0373f8c105a93d046670a8aa2d0.png

Namely: how did the (walkable) cardboard ocean turned into liquid form just from lunar meteor impact alone? That is one of DST's biggest lore problem (out of many-many more), since the cardboard "water" (before "Return of Them" arc/updates cycle) hinted at all Constant being made out of animated stage/theater props (world-merely-a-scene allegory). If such was the case, then crabs/Crab-people could've lived in said (walkable over) cardboard "water" for your theory/speculation to..hold some proverbial water? When only other RoG/DST actual water (liquid form) was the one from Oasis Lake.

You may point at DS: Shipwrecked for a clear example of liquid water and marine flora&fauna (from where Crab-people may have originated), yet it poses the same dilemma: how and what is exactly the relationship between actual-water and its cardboard counterpart we see in classic DS/ROG?! (Is liquid water under the DS/RoG maritime props? Then what are the cardboard waves in current/"RoT" Ocean Abyss at map's edge?) Not to mention real canon (as in: original KLei team that created the DS concept and expanded upon it - aka original authors, artist and writer included), since SW was a subsidiary project done by Capy/Capybara Games (and it seems their parting-ways with KLei wasn't amicable, makes one wonder why in terms of how pleased KLei was with Capy's work on SW and/or other potential job issues).

In the end under scrutiny here may be the current "DST: Return of Them" very writer and the slips-ups that one seems to be prone to - don't forget the "RoT" arc didn't even answered the basic question of what "Them" is/are: "Moon" entity? Lunar being AND Gestalts (to justify the plural)? Alter (implied name of "Moon") AND the One-Eye shadow eldritch horror entity from puzzle's murals (meaning more god-like monsters)? And with this comes the realization DS/T fantasy rules of how its world functions, that should be made clear and constant from start (an usual hallmark of good writing)... is something hazy, fluid, prone to retcon as we saw bountiful in last 3 years; to the point we could look wary at all DST lore as no more than an inside joke about chess in wacky, arbitrarily settings - perhaps another symptom of what it means for original authors (writer, artist) to depart the project.

As always, we'll see more in future where DS/T direction would lead this franchise - for better or worse.

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1 hour ago, Tim S. said:

"How now, spirit? Whither wander you?" - Wortox, exam. CG

(Obviously interesting. So far the word "spirit" either describes Ghosts or Entities of Forest Magic.

Wortox's line is quoting Shakespeare, specifically Puck from A Midsummer Night's Dream. That said, it might still mean something for the DST lore. But it might just be a Shakespeare reference.

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3 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

-snip-

this looks absolutely exhausting to write out a full reply to so i'll just say
1. almost everything you're saying here hinges on a video game bug (clipping out of the map and walking on the ocean) which i really doubt is intended lore
2. i interpreted the turn of tides trailer as using a clear visual contrast between cardboard and real ocean to convey the major shift in the world and gameplay of DST, not as the moon chunk literally colliding with a bunch of cardboard and turning it into liquid salt water
3. you're doing exactly the thing i said is not great in the post you quoted, reaching highly specific conclusions for vague lore and confidently stating they cause problems
4. singular they has been in use since the 14th century. we don't know if They are a group or a single entity, but come on, "to justify the plural"?

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