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The 4 most overpowered characters and how to balance them?


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3 of those characters are extremely overated

People always trash talk edgy rick on the forums, but it seems that both the forums and rick think that Wicker Wx and Wolfgang are a holy trinity and Wortox is also op.

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

lel wolfgang op but wicker balanced

 

 

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

he has more downsides than wicker

 

which one is it?

 

3 hours ago, obekovbuti said:

Wolfgang and WX only consumes but dont give anything return.

Wolfgang gives damage and speed, wx gives insane speed but only if you have a wicker/waste a crap ton of purple gems on telelocator staves

that gives a lot in return, enemies can be killed quicker, if WX or Wolfgang need to go fetch something from somewhere quickly or explore the overworld/caves they help a lot too.

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The only character I think is completely in need of major tweaks and stuff is Wickerbottom. By far the best character. Tentacle farms? Instant food? Krampus and dart farms? She needs to be toned down the most.

Wolfgang might need a little nerf, but not a complete revamp. His damage is great, but you could easily accomplish that with a team, so that's like saying teams are op. I think he just needs a larger downside.

WX78 is only absurdly good in the late game, from my experience, but again, I also think he needs bigger downsides, he has virtually none.

Wortox is a character full of huge upsides and huge downsides, but the only problem I see with him is how easy and versatile souls are. Souls are fine as is, but I think something like butterflies, bees, and other easy soul sources might drop them always, but have a 50% to instantly dissapear. Something like that would be perfect. Wickerbottom, Wolfgang, and WX are still better than him though.

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edit: for example i only use voltgoat jelly to fight CK because i dont feel confidence to fight him with regular damage so I HAVE DECIDE to make that fight easier. I could make that fight even easier if i eat the buff as wolfgang so there is no complains about HP

You're trying to reframe the argument as if to say Wolfgang were an "easy mode" character, except that isn't the case.  An easy mode character would be someone who covered a player's weaknesses such as Willow helping players who maybe can't always make a torch before first night, or Wilson who provides a beard to help if you haven't prepared for first winter.  These are "easy mode" because they cover a new player's weakness.  Wolfgang is basically the opposite of this.  He takes your skill at the game and literally doubles the profits from the skill.  In the hands of a noob he is pretty trash, in the hands of the moderately skilled he appears a god, in the hands of a skilled player he IS a god.

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Ignoring the weird Wolfgang, WX, and Wortox are super op characters stuff, I just want to say that this isn't true either. The fights aren't balanced around Wolfgang, the fights are balanced around having several characters. Wolfgang has the damage output of two characters so he compensates for solo players.

Toadstool has 52k health because he's the optional tank boss. Nothing to do with Wolfgang.

Have you fought AFW with 4 ppl?  Yeah, its not balanced for that...  I would concede that Toad and CK are balanced around multiple players but not because of their hitpoint values, rather because they give 1 player so much to do that its hard to keep up without some extremely powerful gear / super setup.  Klaus, Dfly, Bqueen, AFW ect are definitely NOT based around how many people are stacking up in the fight because they don't hold up in the multiplayer game very well...  These bosses are laughably easy with a group, and only slightly less laughably easy as Wolfgang with buffs.

Whether something is optional or not does not change that hp values are picked based on how effectively players can deal with them.  We don't see a 1000 hp threat because 1000 hp isn't much of a problem.  But think about how much less of a problem that would be for Wolfgang then Wilson?  Any time Klei wants to introduce a boss they simply *must* make it powerful even against Wolfgang or else people will completely trivialize their new release since many high visibility players will 100% take Wolfgang into that fight.

1 hour ago, Seero said:

People always trash talk edgy rick on the forums, but it seems that both the forums and rick think that Wicker Wx and Wolfgang are a holy trinity and Wortox is also op.

 

which one is it?

Edgy Rick isn't the source of the "holy trinity" declaration.  For a LONG time people have recognized that these characters have an inherent strength that warps the world around them.  Even in DS Wolfgang was known to be super OP.  Edgy Rick isn't professing the problematic effects these characters bring to the game, he is the Pope of "its op so do this and only this if you don't you're dumb" and the hate he gets is only a reflection of his own attitude.

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As for the topic - I think Wicker isn't much of a problem.  I like her play style and think some tweaks to her book abilities and costs can address the problems she has now.  WX problem is being super OP in a niche situation while being basically worthless outside of these select cases.  I've long been a proponent of dumping the "eat gears get passive values" in favor of crafts that provide actual benefits / abilities.  Stuff like robot hands that give a punch attack possibly with knock back, or a body equip that provides both backpack slots AND armor.  Maybe other augments like how Wurt gets her king bonus WX could craft specific passive bonus options and switch between them.

For Wolfgang lets be honest - it isn't just his damage multiplier, its his whole kit which is super efficient at everything.  The OP talks about how Wolfgang is a pick & switch character, but lets be real - when don't you want the mobility?  At every point in the game Wolfgang has a speed bonus that helps him explore, travel, kite ect superior to every other character.  Other characters can get a cane, but so can Wolfgang!  Which is the real problem with Wolfgang, he gets it all.  He gets double damage AND damage dishes and every other modification the game comes with.  The impact of his damage bonus on a boss fight isn't so simple either.  He uses half the the dark swords, half the armor, and shortcuts a lot of boss mechanics.  Every time a new boss is released by Klei people flock to youtube to see how a boss works and how they can fight it and the first and most important instruction they get is a resounding "pick Wolfgang."

What to do about it?  I think Toro's rework would be a good way to go.  I like that.  I think cutting damage and speed multipliers to give you only the strongest one available at any time would have a good impact.  This way other characters can at least play catch up rather than Wolfgang getting everything inherent in his kit +++ everything else too.

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1 hour ago, thegreatJash said:

I think something like butterflies, bees, and other easy soul sources might drop them always, but have a 50% to instantly dissapear.

I don't even understand why plants have soul?
(Butterfly is kind of plant)

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12 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Edgy Rick isn't the source of the "holy trinity" declaration.  For a LONG time people have recognized that these characters have an inherent strength that warps the world around them.  Even in DS Wolfgang was known to be super OP.  Edgy Rick isn't professing the problematic effects these characters bring to the game, he is the Pope of "its op so do this and only this if you don't you're dumb" and the hate he gets is only a reflection of his own attitude.

 

He totally is considering how much attention he gets on here, you cannot deny. 

13 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

WX problem is being super OP in a niche situation while being basically worthless outside of these select cases

if it's a niche situation, he's not OP

 

14 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

For Wolfgang lets be honest - it isn't just his damage multiplier, its his whole kit which is super efficient at everything.

damage and speed, so a walking cane basically. He's good at fighting, but not the best at walking

How is he super efficient at everything? How often do you play wolfgang?

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8 minutes ago, Slagger said:

I don't even understand why plants have soul?
(Butterfly is kind of plant)

+rep to that. Wigfrid can't eat them because they're a plant but Wortox can get souls from them? Unbelievable discrimination.

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17 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

when don't you want the mobility?  At every point in the game Wolfgang has a speed bonus that helps him explore, travel, kite ect superior to every other character. 

walter lol

speed boosts are great, the best even, but this just makes them overated

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9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

You're trying to reframe the argument as if to say Wolfgang were an "easy mode" character, except that isn't the case.  An easy mode character would be someone who covered a player's weaknesses such as Willow helping players who maybe can't always make a torch before first night, or Wilson who provides a beard to help if you haven't prepared for first winter.  These are "easy mode" because they cover a new player's weakness.  Wolfgang is basically the opposite of this.  He takes your skill at the game and literally doubles the profits from the skill.  In the hands of a noob he is pretty trash, in the hands of the moderately skilled he appears a god, in the hands of a skilled player he IS a god.

he isnt a noob friendly character but is a character that makes the game easier. With a little of knowledge of the game he makes boss fights, the last thing a player can overcome in this game, trivial since making mistakes matter less than making the same mistake with wilson

he needs less preparation so running out of gear/healing/whatever will be harder as him, the fights are faster so will be more rare to have unforeseens in the middle of a fight, he has more hp pool so things like overheating or not kiting well (which is easier with his speed) will be less punishing. And klei is adding more bosses with healing like antlion, fw and ck so making the mistake of not stopping these healing has less impact in the fight as wolfgang/any other character with damage multiply than with wilson. And dont make me talk about he being able to beat df without ice staves to kill lavaes or speed boost to kite her enrage form, being able to kite unchained klaus, rook or beequeen without mag or roads

wolfgang was the character i used to learn how to beat raid bosses because all of this, so i could focus in the fight and less in other stuff

that doesnt mean i think klei must nerf him but is obvious that he makes the game easier since food isnt a problem when, as him, you can defeat many enemies in few time (and im not taking in count how much food there is arround the map) so filling him, not even all the time, for boss fights or enemy waves is really easy when you have play a little

i understand that some veteran players might enjoy playing as him because you could be tired of fighting for the 100th time the same 10 minutes boss but dont come like he is playing as wilson but faster because, in this game, even making this in less time makes a difference but isnt only about making things in less time

what i would like for him is a deeper gameplay even if this means he being stronger

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1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

that doesnt mean i think klei must nerf him but is obvious that he makes the game easier since food isnt a problem when, as him, you can defeat many enemies in few time (and im not taking in count how much food there is arround the map) so filling him, not even all the time, for boss fights or enemy waves is really easy when you have play a little

 

 

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

what i would like for him is a deeper gameplay even if this means he being stronger

cool! I don't care if he gets buffed to make him "deeper" but I'm glad you understand

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20 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

he isnt a noob friendly character but is a character that makes the game easier. With a little of knowledge of the game he makes boss fights, the last thing a player can overcome in this game, trivial since making mistakes matter less than making the same mistake with wilson

he needs less preparation so running out of gear/healing/whatever will be harder as him, the fights are faster so will be more rare to have unforeseens in the middle of a fight, he has more hp pool so things like overheating or not kiting well (which is easier with his speed) will be less punishing. And klei is adding more bosses with healing like antlion, fw and ck so making the mistake of not stopping these healing has less impact in the fight as wolfgang/any other character with damage multiply than with wilson. And dont make me talk about he being able to beat df without ice staves to kill lavaes or speed boost to kite her enrage form, being able to kite unchained klaus, rook or beequeen without mag or roads

There is a term for that - its called being OP.  When you're so good at everything that using it just makes the game easier without justification, its called OP.

 

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2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

There is a term for that - its called being OP.  When you're so good at everything that using it just makes the game easier without justification, its called OP.

 

i didnt say the opposite, was another toxic user that even made a topic talking about how balanced is wolfgang 

i think some people doesnt know how is played the game with a basic character like wilson 

but is like i said, i dont care op characters (i would like less strong character but that is kleis work to decide) meanwhile that doesnt affect my gameplay

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7 hours ago, obekovbuti said:

I dont think Don't Starve Together needs to be a very balanced game. Anyone is free to play any character they like. But some of them needs to be a team character what i mean is Wolfgang and WX only consumes but dont give anything return. They need few mecanics to help to team just like Wigfrid with her helmets and stagecrafts. Or maybe these two needs some fun game mecanics too. That is all i got to say. Don't Starve Together is not a balanced game.

Wolfgang and WX fight for the team and tank the boss when its necessary.

wx78 can rush ruin first to get some gears for my team and myself.

wolfgang can fight more efficient then other teammates, so they feed me and send me fight or solo boss, bring meat and other loot back. 

So i actually have the opposite idea. Characters should all be fine themself, teamwork should more be depended on player not character itself. Warly should gain more benefits for himself and provide slightly weak buff to teammats as well as other "support" character.

Instead of make all character support, force player teamwork, why dont just let players choose by themselves

4 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Excepting Wortox, "The Holy Trinity" of Wicker, Wolf, and WX will eventually get reworked, and most certainly will incorporate certain "softcore" nerfs (because KLei tested those waters with Wicker's Applied Horticulture tone-down and it showed how "well received" that was in bulk player-base). I don't think any one of them will be completely revamped.

Likewise I don't believe this silly game should be strictly mechanically balanced. More-so, its balance was made for groups of moderately-skilled players (I would reckon an average of 4 to 6 - aka maximum number of players allowed on personal vanilla servers), ones that get the basics of DST but aren't competent enough to trivialize character cons or game as a whole - for them mentioned cons most likely matter (as opposed to the tiny vocal minority advocating for hard nerfs all around on these forums time-and-again). Once more: general balance is geared towards general player populace, not only a select advanced few - this should always be kept to mind.

This game could be not that balanced if its just a single player rougelike survival game. Weak character would be treat as a "challenge"(such as wes). However when it comes to coop-game, balance is quite important now, At least try to balance some obviously OP character and obviously useless character(except wes)

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"Overpowered" is so subjective. The game has so many different aspects, and it looks like you're focusing a lot in combat. I used to dislike Wolfgang, but not because it was a good character for combat... I just thought I had to use Wolfgang for combat, since EVERYONE was using it in tutorials, videos, streams, etc. Once I realised that was not true, I was able to play with whatever character I felt like playing, because in any case there was the option to switch characters. With the right playstyle, no character has downsides.

I surprises me that you do not mention Winona. I would consider catapults to be "overpowered", since they let you farm bosses safely and reliably for minimal cost in the long term.

If I were Klei, I would not change an old character with new mechanics; I would instead make a new character. My hope is that reworks make characters more interesting by adding more features related to their strength, and hopefully help allies further. A fun example: Wolfgang could make a "gym" structure for other players to train, and gain a temporary combat buff at the cost of a lot of hunger. 

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On 1/17/2021 at 10:20 AM, HeilerderWelten said:

Greetings survivors of the constant.

DST balanced with there character reworks several characters and made them more enjoyable and more interesting.

But we have still 3 of the old overpowered and 1 new overpowered char in the game, that tower over everyone else.

Wickerbottom:

- can spawn tentacles that completly demolish Beequeen, Dragonfly, hound waves, etc. 

- she has a cheaper "panflute book"

- her downsides are irelevant: she can't sleep and can't eat stale food, there are so many ways to avoid those downsides

- the rest of her books and traits are fine (now after applied horticulture abridged)

- of course her rework could bring her new interesting books with new effects that could be balanced arount crafting cost, etc.

WX 78:

- the gears buff are not the problem

- but the overload is, it lets him run 50% faster (stacks with roads, walking cane) emit a small circle of light around him (he is immune to the night) and makes him immune to freezing, all of that is extremly powerful, but would be still fine because it doesn't last that long, the problem here is Wickerbottoms lightning strike book, with this book she can just stack that overcharge effect for such a long time that it becomes broken to no end, and the book is cheap to craft

- he should be upgradable with the powers of other clockworks, rook charge, bishop range attack, floaty boaty knight boad mode, something that makes his machine side more interesting

- he should get way more damage from beeing wet

Wolfgang:

- he does the damage of 2 characters all by himself, the problem here is that every boss that gets added must be balanced around Wolfgangs damage multiplier, Toadstool has 52000 health and one reason for that is Wolfgangs strength, because every boss in the game must last long enough for the characters to remain a challange and Wolfgang sets the health bar of anything so high, that every other character suffers from that

- it became even worse since we have the character switch, everytime when I want to fight a raid boss, I switch to Wolfgang, because every fight only last half as long, that means I need way less armor, healing, weapons, ressources, it is a waste of time to fight raid bosses with any character but Wolfgang

- there has to be a solution to that, Wolfgang shouldn't be a switch to boss kill character, he should build up his strength with time, like Wilson needs time to grow his beard, WX 78 needs time to level up with gears, Wurt needs time to build her merm kingdom and when you switch to a diffrent char, Wolfgang should loose its power again, like WX 78 looses its buff from gears when he dies

- he should get stronger when he does physical labor, chopping trees, mining boulders, fighting, training, etc. so that he buffs himself like a real strong man would do, not just by eating 3 meat balls made of 9 ice and 3 monster meat

- besides of that he should have other interesting trades aswell, beside his fighting power

Wortox:

- he gets souls from killing living creatures, with souls he teleports, he heals 20 health and he can eat them for 18 hunger

- the reason why this gets so absolutely broken are bees and butterflies

- killing a butterfly grants him 1 soul that heals 20 health (+4 health of the buttyfly wing, he gets only half the effects of food) or 18 hunger (+4 hunger from the wings)

- killing 5 butterflies, one of the easiest to kill mobs in the game grants him more than 100 health or 90 hunger and only cost him 25 sanity (he loses 5 sanity by eating souls)

- can also catch butterflies, bees, etc with a bugnet and can store even more "souls" this way, this is completly insane

- little critters like bees, butterflies, mosquitos, etc.shouldn't drop souls, that would make him way more balanced

- he could still have a living rabbit, moleworm in his inventory, that he can kill for 1 soul, but you can't stack rabbits and your item slots are limited

- besides of that Wortox is actually fine, he is still very strong, but atleast you have to kill spiders for souls, they can atleast try to fight back, a butterfly can not

 

I am very interested in your thoughts, how would you balance those 4 characters?

Which interesting new strange powers could Wickerbottom, Wolfgang and WX78 get?

And why do you hate Wes so much? ^O^

Personally i feel like wendy is the unbalanced character. For all the flak Wolfgang gets about his damage modifier you still have to account for player skill in combat he has the strength of 2 players but that means nothing if you aren't good at fighting. On the other end you have Wendy who trivializes most combat in dst as most threats you face come from horde battles and Wolfgang's 2x damage doesn't compare to spread damage that requires little to no management. While her hitting for less can cause a impact it really only applies to solo play as having partners more than covers this. Wolfgang also falls into this the isn't balanced around Wolfgang its balanced around players swarming bosses 2x damage doesn't hold a candle to 5-12x players.

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32 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Personally i feel like wendy is the unbalanced character. For all the flak Wolfgang gets about his damage modifier you still have to account for player skill in combat he has the strength of 2 players but that means nothing if you aren't good at fighting. On the other end you have Wendy who trivializes most combat in dst as most threats you face come from horde battles and Wolfgang's 2x damage doesn't compare to spread damage that requires little to no management. While her hitting for less can cause a impact it really only applies to solo play as having partners more than covers this. Wolfgang also falls into this the isn't balanced around Wolfgang its balanced around players swarming bosses 2x damage doesn't hold a candle to 5-12x players.

Fair point. I am curious, is Wendy really that strong? Can Abygail handle a houndwave (day 100+) alone? I am not very familiar with reworked Wendy. What can the girl do?

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14 hours ago, YETI Spaghetti said:

maybe with wortox you would get like half a sould or a quarter of a soul for killing things like butterflies and bees

This makes me wonder what would happen if Wortox had a cooking show

"Now, to make the cookies imp-friendly and to help the cookies rise ethereally. We add 1 1/4 cup of souls."

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17 minutes ago, HeilerderWelten said:

Fair point. I am curious, is Wendy really that strong? Can Abygail handle a houndwave (day 100+) alone? I am not very familiar with reworked Wendy. What can the girl do?

yes and not only that. she has extra damage agaisnt all foes (except few weak aoe bosses)

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16 minutes ago, HeilerderWelten said:

Fair point. I am curious, is Wendy really that strong? Can Abygail handle a houndwave (day 100+) alone? I am not very familiar with reworked Wendy. What can the girl do?

  • 2nd highest dps ingame (Wendy with Dark Sword and Abigail during night deal ~15% more damage compared to a Wigfrid with Dark Sword)
  • Has a minion which deals AoE damage (up to 40 damage per second to every enemy nearby)
    • Spiders, Splumonkeys, Grumblebees, etc. are no problem at all for Abigail
  • Abigail becomes invincible for 0.5 seconds if hit by anything
    • This prevents most of the damage comping from Spider Warriors, Splumonkeys, Mush Gnomes, etc.
  • Abigail has up to 600 health and can restore 20 health per second if Wendy uses a Spectral Cure-All on her

If paired with Wortox she becomes even stronger due to her ability to farm souls en masse.

The only penalties Wendy has is fighting bosses with AoE attacks since they are able to target both (Wendy and Abigail) at once and Abigail doesn't deal damage against shadows, which is not such a big problem since Wendy can avoid insanity easier than the average character (Sanity drain is reduced by 25% and Abigail prevents most of the insanity from mobs by killing them on her own).

Just play a few games as Wendy and you'll see how easy she is. Places like Mandrake Forest, Moonstone Forest or the monkey biome in the ruins are the perfect places to gather ressources as Wendy, for Living Logs just visit the Lunar Grotto. If you try to kill BQ: Don't forget to get enough Spectral Cure-Alls to keep Abigail alive.

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