Refrigerator Now requires Power

[Kderosa]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it appears that the sad day has finally arrived where the refrigerator now requires power to work. And, by work I mean the dupes won't deliver to it unless it is powered up.  In the screenshot I just snipped the wire and poof the available errands disappeared.

It also appears to store a 200  kJ charge. I don't know if that's new since I don't think I've powered it up in recent memory.

 

[t0panka]

wait before you learn about deodorizers and automatic dispensers .)

[blash365]

I am inclined to say that it is that way from early on in the alpha already. It is a good change, but i would prefer dupes to be able to deliver even to unpowered fridges.

I am not 100% sure how it currently is in vanilla, but cold atmosphere and sterile atmosphere only delays decay of food now (as per tooltip).

My recollection is that sterile atmosphere was already preventing food spoilage completely, making fridges unnecessary to begin with (that is why i never powered them and have no idea how the refridgeration buff actually worked). Now both buffs delay decay, but cant stop it.

[Kderosa]

Yeah I found those already. That's how I noticed this one because I saw that no deliveries were being made just like the automatic dispensers and deodorizers .  

Just now, blash365 said:

I am inclined to say that it is that way from early on in the alpha already. It is a good change, but i would prefer dupes to be able to deliver even to unpowered fridges.

I am not 100% sure how it currently is in vanilla, but cold atmosphere and sterile atmosphere only delays decay of food now (as per tooltip).

My recollection is that sterile atmosphere was already preventing food spoilage completely, making fridges unnecessary to begin with (that is why i never powered them and have no idea how the refridgeration buff actually worked). Now both buffs delay decay, but cant stop it.

I guess the days of racking up millions of kcal of cooked food might be over.  I'll have to keep better track of my food stores this playthrough to see just how fast food decays. It didn't seem to be much of an issue on my first playthrough

[BlackGoat]

I haven't done any debug/sandbox testing so I am not sure if there is a minimum food spoilage rate per cycle but I have noticed that polluted o2 does quite a bit of 'damage' to food freshness now even if that food is inside a powered refridgerator.  Change per cycle seems to scale with food state e.g. -25% freshness per cycle for 'Fresh' food and -13% freshness per cycle for 'Stale' food.

[0xFADE]

Oh you can't even deliver to a turned off fridge?  That is rather silly.

[2tallyGr8]

Yes, it is just a vertical ration box otherwise.

[nonchalant86]

2 hours ago, blash365 said:

I am inclined to say that it is that way from early on in the alpha already. It is a good change, but i would prefer dupes to be able to deliver even to unpowered fridges.

I am not 100% sure how it currently is in vanilla, but cold atmosphere and sterile atmosphere only delays decay of food now (as per tooltip).

My recollection is that sterile atmosphere was already preventing food spoilage completely, making fridges unnecessary to begin with (that is why i never powered them and have no idea how the refridgeration buff actually worked). Now both buffs delay decay, but cant stop it.

I loaded up a pre-update save file and let the game run for a few cycles. I did not notice any chance in freshness for food stored in a CO2 ration box. The tooltip states 0% change per cycle. 

[JRup]

1 hour ago, 2tallyGr8 said:

Yes, it is just a vertical ration box otherwise.

The ration box only fits up to 150kg, space consumed is 2x2 area (lid animation takes place in upper layer). The vertical ration box stores up to 100kg, area is 2x1. Two fridges will net you 200kg storage space, so there is a storage space gain of 50kg for the same area of a ration box...

Does berry sludge have a spoil time now? (Does it still exist? I don't have access to alpha, but that point's growing moot by the day.)

[SkunkMaster]

7 minutes ago, JRup said:

Does berry sludge have a spoil time now? (Does it still exist? I don't have access to alpha, but that point's growing moot by the day.)

Yes it does, and the DLC pretty much made it the best food for space travel.

[JRup]

10 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

Yes it does, and the DLC pretty much made it the best food for space travel.

I do have random boxes/unpowered fridges with lots of that all over the central base in regular game... it is my indestructible stash... for DLC, however... oh well, as long as it has a "decent" shelf life.

[solo6490]

3 hours ago, blash365 said:

I am inclined to say that it is that way from early on in the alpha already. It is a good change, but i would prefer dupes to be able to deliver even to unpowered fridges.

I am not 100% sure how it currently is in vanilla, but cold atmosphere and sterile atmosphere only delays decay of food now (as per tooltip).

My recollection is that sterile atmosphere was already preventing food spoilage completely, making fridges unnecessary to begin with (that is why i never powered them and have no idea how the refridgeration buff actually worked). Now both buffs delay decay, but cant stop it.

Fridges and dispensers should be deliverable while unpowered but only refrigerate/drop when powered. For rockets now this is kind of important when getting food ready for a trip. 

I think it stops all spoiler if sterile if I remember right. Hydrogen, carbon dioxide, chlorine, vacuum are all "sterile" Polluted Oxygen decreases spoil time even in a powered fridge (which should be changed Imo,)  

yes, it does make fridge's unnecessary which is why it should stop all spoilage regardless of atmosphere. its a trade of food storage at the cost of constant power. if you dont want to pay that then you can build a "sterile" atmosphere food storage. 

[psusi]

Ok, I thought it was bad enough that the fridge won't accept deliveries now without power, but they are also nerfing CO2 storage?  Ok maybe I can kind of see the CO2 thing, and the fridge I could live with if it only used power when actively cooling the contents, then stopped, but chlorine storage?  Come on!  They damn well better make dupes prefer to eat the food that is closer to spoiling first!

 

[Alexandr Block]

@BlackGoat The food spoilage mechanic has not changed. Different types of food have different spoilage times. Polluted oxygen doubles the rate of deterioration. If food spoils in oxygen in 4 cycles, then in polluted oxygen - 2 cycles (two debuffs work - it does not cool, and dirty oxygen). In polluted oxygen and refrigerator  - 4 cycles (only one debuff is active)

[fredhp]

I Just tested with the DLC: Food won't spoil in chlorine, hydrogen, CO2 or Vacuum atmosphere.

[nessumo]

Hint: additional storage in cold brine looks reasonable now for early game on swamp.

[blash365]

11 minutes ago, fredhp said:

I Just tested with the DLC: Food won't spoil in chlorine, hydrogen, CO2 or Vacuum atmosphere.

I am pretty sure that CO2 does not prevent spoilage in the DLC. I have powered fridges in a CO2 room and i get spoiled food every now and then.

How did you test it?

[fredhp]

5 minutes ago, blash365 said:

I am pretty sure that CO2 does not prevent spoilage in the DLC. I have powered fridges in a CO2 room and i get spoiled food every now and then.

How did you test it?

 

Another test: Same results.

 

[BlackGoat]

14 hours ago, Alexandr Block said:

@BlackGoat The food spoilage mechanic has not changed. Different types of food have different spoilage times. Polluted oxygen doubles the rate of deterioration. If food spoils in oxygen in 4 cycles, then in polluted oxygen - 2 cycles (two debuffs work - it does not cool, and dirty oxygen). In polluted oxygen and refrigerator  - 4 cycles (only one debuff is active)

ah, I guess I just never noticed before the DLC alpha since I was always cleaning po2 with powerless deodorizers and using unpowered fridges in co2 pits.

[blash365]

1 hour ago, fredhp said:

Another test: Same results.

Appreciated. I yield.

[Kderosa]

1 hour ago, fredhp said:

 

 

The neutronium is a nice touch.

Reminds me of Young's rat maze experiments recounted by Feynman:

For example, there have been many experiments running rats through all
kinds of mazes, and so on--with little clear result. But in 1937
a man named Young did a very interesting one. He had a long
corridor with doors all along one side where the rats came in, and
doors along the other side where the food was. He wanted to see if
he could train the rats to go in at the third door down from
wherever he started them off. No. The rats went immediately to the
door where the food had been the time before.
 
The question was, how did the rats know, because the corridor was
so beautifully built and so uniform, that this was the same door
as before? Obviously there was something about the door that was
different from the other doors. So he painted the doors very
carefully, arranging the textures on the faces of the doors exactly
the same. Still the rats could tell. Then he thought maybe the rats
were smelling the food, so he used chemicals to change the smell
after each run. Still the rats could tell. Then he realized the
rats might be able to tell by seeing the lights and the arrangement
in the laboratory like any commonsense person. So he covered the
corridor, and still the rats could tell.
 
He finally found that they could tell by the way the floor sounded
when they ran over it. And he could only fix that by putting his
corridor in sand. So he covered one after another of all possible
clues and finally was able to fool the rats so that they had to
learn to go in the third door. If he relaxed any of his conditions,
the rats could tell.
 
Now, from a scientific standpoint, that is an A-number-one
experiment. That is the experiment that makes rat-running
experiments sensible, because it uncovers the clues that the rat
is really using--not what you think it's using. And that is the
experiment that tells exactly what conditions you have to use in
order to be careful and control everything in an experiment with
rat-running.
 
I looked into the subsequent history of this research. The next
experiment, and the one after that, never referred to Mr. Young.
They never used any of his criteria of putting the corridor on
sand, or being very careful. They just went right on running rats
in the same old way, and paid no attention to the great discoveries
of Mr. Young, and his papers are not referred to, because he didn't
discover anything about the rats. In fact, he discovered all the
things you have to do to discover something about rats. But not
paying attention to experiments like that is a characteristic of
cargo cult science.

[Gurgel]

1 hour ago, Kderosa said:

The neutronium is a nice touch.

Rminds me of Young's rat maze experiments recounted by Feynman

...

 I looked into the subsequent history of this research. The next experiment, and the one after that, never referred to Mr. Young. They never used any of his criteria of putting the corridor on sand, or being very careful. They just went right on running rats in the same old way, and paid no attention to the great discoveries of Mr. Young, and his papers are not referred to, because he didn't discover anything about the rats. In fact, he discovered all the things you have to do to discover something about rats. But not paying attention to experiments like that is a characteristic of cargo cult science.

I have done quite a bit of paper reviewing. This same thing is still going on to a large degree and it is an utter disgrace. The neutronium rules any and all such effects out and that is indeed very well done. That said, the writings on science by Feynman are excellent and often very entertaining or very depressing, depending on where you stand.

[beeric]

So if we want to store food in containers, you either need to use the ration box in a sterile environment, or power your refrigerator?

[Kderosa]

1 hour ago, beeric said:

So if we want to store food in containers, you either need to use the ration box in a sterile environment, or power your refrigerator?

Yes

[Lilscratchy]

Idk man i have 1 swamp chard that i harvested in the first 20 cycles or so left which has been in co2 storage until now (cycle 189) other foods dont spoil for me, except when a runaway cloud of po2 passes the storage by accident