Ranking characters on how much they need a re-work and explaining why.

[Mysterious box]

12 hours ago, Zeklo said:

This is a poor example.
With Warly all you have to do is stock up resources as a character of your choice, swap to Warly to make the food, and then swap back. Now you can reap the rewards as any character for some time so long as you stocked up enough.

Being Wickerbottom is a still requirement for reaping the rewards of her perk—unless you're playing Maxwell, but that's a single exception. I can't just "take" Wolfgang's strength either. If I want to reap the rewards of his character I have to actually play as him during the fight.

Sure you could technically spam swap if you don't value your resources whatsoever, but the point is Warly's perk requires minimal back & forth, and someone like Winona requires none once the desired amount of structures are placed.

 

Wigfrid is a great example of a character with a neat team-oriented perk while not becoming a pick and swap. Her gear is nice, but they aren't unique in the sense that they provide something irreplaceable (there are other means of obtaining the same armor level, or higher), yet prove handy while a Wigfrid is present. On top of that, Wigfrid has her vampirism perk which is specific to her, stays relevant, and can't be passed on. She is an ideal.

There really is no difference on the wicker warly thing other people can't make his dishes but they can use them the same applies to wicker other people can't make her books and use them aside from maxwell but once she uses them there's nothing stopping you from reaping said rewards the moment she uses her books her benefit has been past on other difference being the lack of a meaningful downside.

As for Wolfgang no you don't takehis strength to another character but you sure can use it for one and done boss fights and then switch to another character you might like more

12 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

Other than his repeated meal downside which keeps new players away from playing as Warly, feels completly unnecessary and breaks his whole cooking style (i.e. it keeps him away from relying on dishes and forces him to rely more on Tents or Healing Salve, just like Wormwood), I also dislike his whole DST design.

His backpack got nerfed hard and is only 25% as strong as his SW version, it's useless for him right now.

He's the 2nd least picked non-DLC character after Wes which is a sign that Warly is underpowered or bad designed. The only things that keep him alive are his Volt Goat Chaud-Froid, the only dish players want from Warly as it gives everyone an insane amount of damage, and his seasonings, which turn him into a Jack of all trades but don't affect the dish at all.

Actually all it really comes down to is people prefer characters that are easy with minimal downsides  if server populations prove anything his style keeps on point a chef who doesn't have variety isn't a true chef and his recipes are useful in a variety of situations some with minimal investment. And while I would like the shipwreck backpack back I can see why kiel wouldn't want everyone walking around with mini fridges day one

[Viktor234]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Actually all it really comes down to is people prefer characters that are easy with minimal downsides  if server populations prove anything his style keeps on point a chef who doesn't have variety isn't a true chef and his recipes are useful in a variety of situations some with minimal investment. And while I would like the shipwreck backpack back I can see why kiel wouldn't want everyone walking around with mini fridges day one

Reversing the stat changes on his Chef Pouch isn't the only way to fix that, there are other way better ways to return his old chef pouch, either via making it only fully functional if used by Warly, or by deleting the Chef Pouch from his equipment and giving Warly an ability which reduces the spoilage of items located in his backpack by 50%.

[MondayNight]

15 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

I never said that Willow wasn't good, I said that It didn't do a good job of making her Willow. She's "The Fire Starter", she's a pyromaniac, Yet her re-work cared more about her after-thought bear than it did about fire.

Underlining "she's the fire starter, a pyromaniac" - I for one can only envision this as spontaneously or deliberately starting and propagating fires around the land. And this in turn means potentially massive loss of resources. Of course such aspect would be the wet dream of every potential griefer out there: now you don't only begin with some personal torch with longer durability right out of gate, but with potential of easily-and-very-fast scorch vast areas. Even worse, if such effect would again be tied to insanity, just imagine what bulk-players out there that perceive Wilson and Willow as starter-and-default characters (via first 2 allocated-spots in character selection) would do from lack of sanity-management knowledge. And how a change like this in turn would boost the kicking/banning of Willows from pubs when they spawn - more so than present situation (I had my fair share of kickings, thus I know the feeling).

 

In case of your 3 points for a potential rework:

On 8/11/2020 at 7:43 AM, Theukon-dos said:

>Fire doesn't spread to most objects

>Can extinguish fires from a distance at a small cost of sanity

>Can light mobs on fire without destroying drops.

 

1) seems to be a passive perk. For active play-style is rather unimportant: comes in effect mostly in summer with mandatory smoldering (and a bit in winter if you're the type to warm via lighting up solitary trees/saplings/bushes/etc). In pubs players don't care about fire-spreading, thus imo would be another gloss-over perk, not weighting in the character's selection;

2) again seems to be tied to smoldering and accidental fires (player or summer/lighting strikes related) - which in turn are contextual and pretty minimal occurrences outside Summer in Forest non-Oasis shard (and, rhetorically, grifers). Newbies/noobs/casuals wouldn't know how and when to use it efficiently if any and for advanced players would be redundant, as they can manage/prevent such situations to begin with. Plus it comes with a taxing penalty, and bulk players base would avoid at all costs sanity loss, thus even less inclined to use such ability, increasing its redundancy;

3) lighting up mobs on fire is a very inefficient way of killing them (am writing about direct fire damage, not from objects lit on fire under/close to mobs); can help in tanking/kiting, but most times it just makes said mobs running around in panic in unpredictable patterns actually complicating the fight and spreading fire around. Coupled with 1) and 2) could make for a niche strategy but yet again is contextual and pretty minimal as mobs-on-fire doesn't boost a significant damage output and bosses don't panic.

All-in-all proposed points seem to only introduce a rather complicated fighting strat aside unimportant aspects, not making Willow more interesting or attractive to play. And if this is at the cost of the Nightmare-Fuel factory that's BERNIE!, it gets a solid "No!" from me. I would perceive these modifications as a Willow-downgrade, more so as I'm not into niche strategies and proposed points don't really bring anything interesting to the table, but strip Willow of a consistent process of procuring NF and of guarding newbies/noobs/casuals from insanity monsters for a time (giving them the opportunity to learn how to fight Shadow Creatures). And, worse of all, a pyro downside can boost tenfold her kicking/banning from servers.

 

Also am not a fan of making Willow some fire-magic witch with AoE enchantment-deploying gimmicks. No other character has such mechanics and imo unnecessary complicates gameplay without consistent net-positives.

[Superlucas1231]

On 8/11/2020 at 12:43 AM, Theukon-dos said:

Wickerbottom:

She also lacks any notable downsides, sense cooking food restores freshness anyways, and sleeping's only really good for Wormwood and Walter.

Generally, I think it would be good if the sheer god-killing power of those books was diminished, with her other books seeing a bit more utility on their end.

 

20 hours ago, Ogrecakes said:

Also, as much as I like Wicker, she deserves a complete overhaul, her books are just random assortments of magical abilities that she doeant rely on. Her downsides are practically meaningless, and she doesnt have a core sort of theme or mechanic that ties her together.

Frankly, I just play her for her personality and the convenience of her tier 1 science.

I'f she actively had to research and study various things to properly survive I think that could be a fun and unique direction to take.

Like, if she was so obsessed with knowledge that she had to research carrots before actually being able to eat them, or could get more use out carrots after studying. Silly, and nonsensical, but I feel like it xould be a fun idea id handled correctly.

While I do think Wicker's downsides are non existent, I really hate the idea of drastically changing the way her books work because some of them are really powerful. Even if some people would like Wicker's books to be changed, I don't think it's worth alienating people who like her current books by just getting rid of them. I mean, just look at Willow and Woodie - there still are a lot of people who just rather prefer if they just got their old abilities back and not what they have now. 

That being said, I do wish her other books got a little bit more uses - but rather than buffing the books, give more scenarios where those books would be more useful. like being able to create charge different objects and batteries with end is nigh and/or being able to summon birds that usually don't spawn during the season and etc. 

And while her books come off as being over the place, they all have a synergy with different characters. Maybe i'm reaching, but Wicker's character is a tactical grandmother that just wants to care for everyone. She is generally a support character that doesn't really support characters the traditional way (Like Walry buffing stats, or Wortox healing) but by making them more efficient and covering their weakness.

AH helps Wormwood Warly, etc, 

BoW + SS helps Wig and Wortox

OT helps Wurt

and TEiN helps Wx.

Really, if Klei is going to change or add more books to Wick, I hope they try to make them have some synergy with other characters.   

But my main problem with Wicker is how she plays like a character that is supposedly, a high risk high reward character but doesn't actually have that much of a risk because sanity isn't that big of an issue to a lot of people. I really, really, REALLY wish that her downside just punish her more for her sanity and book spamming over "shes' old so -20 hp." Having her not be able to heal sanity over a set period of time when she use a book, giving her more monsters to deal with when being insane, and reducing her max sanity with each book use after her sanity reaches 0 would be my suggestion to make her insanity more dangerous.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Viktor234 said:

Reversing the stat changes on his Chef Pouch isn't the only way to fix that, there are other way better ways to return his old chef pouch, either via making it only fully functional if used by Warly, or by deleting the Chef Pouch from his equipment and giving Warly an ability which reduces the spoilage of items located in his backpack by 50%.

I like the idea of improving the cooling of the chef pouch but I'd more so prefer they give it the same slots as a backpack 25% doesn't seem like much but that adds days on to expiration and each day is 8 mins so that's still a considerable amount of time.

[Theukon-dos]

16 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Underlining "she's the fire starter, a pyromaniac" - I for one can only envision this as spontaneously or deliberately starting and propagating fires around the land. And this in turn means potentially massive loss of resources. Of course such aspect would be the wet dream of every potential griefer out there: now you don't only begin with some personal torch with longer durability right out of gate, but with potential of easily-and-very-fast scorch vast areas. Even worse, if such effect would again be tied to insanity, just imagine what bulk-players out there that perceive Wilson and Willow as starter-and-default characters (via first 2 allocated-spots in character selection) would do from lack of sanity-management knowledge. And how a change like this in turn would boost the kicking/banning of Willows from pubs when they spawn - more so than present situation (I had my fair share of kickings, thus I know the feeling).

I agree that Willow's kit shouldn't revolve around burning the whole constant to dust, But That doesn't mean she can't be fire-based while also not being a greif-machine. I mean keep in mind any character can turn a base into a pile of ashes using just a torch.

16 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

 

In case of your 3 points for a potential rework:

I should note that these wheren't meant as a whole re-work, they where just ideas that could let willow be fire-based while simultaneously being the hardest character to fire grief with, or possibly even being the counter towards greifing.

16 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

1) seems to be a passive perk. For active play-style is rather unimportant: comes in effect mostly in summer with mandatory smoldering (and a bit in winter if you're the type to warm via lighting up solitary trees/saplings/bushes/etc). In pubs players don't care about fire-spreading, thus imo would be another gloss-over perk, not weighting in the character's selection;

Apologies for not making it clear, but this trait would only apply to Fires that Willow lit. I admit that this is fairly non-impactive, but the main point is that it would work with Willow being a pyromancer and make it harder for her to greif bases.

16 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

2) again seems to be tied to smoldering and accidental fires (player or summer/lighting strikes related) - which in turn are contextual and pretty minimal occurrences outside Summer in Forest non-Oasis shard (and, rhetorically, grifers). Newbies/noobs/casuals wouldn't know how and when to use it efficiently if any and for advanced players would be redundant, as they can manage/prevent such situations to begin with. Plus it comes with a taxing penalty, and bulk players base would avoid at all costs sanity loss, thus even less inclined to use such ability, increasing its redundancy;

Again, this is just an idea for what a Willow re-work could have that would make it harder for her to greif. Or in this case, let her be the counter towards greifing.

16 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

3) lighting up mobs on fire is a very inefficient way of killing them (am writing about direct fire damage, not from objects lit on fire under/close to mobs); can help in tanking/kiting, but most times it just makes said mobs running around in panic in unpredictable patterns actually complicating the fight and spreading fire around. Coupled with 1) and 2) could make for a niche strategy but yet again is contextual and pretty minimal as mobs-on-fire doesn't boost a significant damage output and bosses don't panic.

First of all, again, Fires lit by Willow wouldn't spread, meaning that lighting an enemy on fire wouldn't be a risk to anything other than the lit mob. And Second even if it's not a particularly strong damaging source, it can still serve it's uses. For example if you're getting ganked on by 2 clockwork knights, you can light one of them on fire inorder to gank the other one while the lit one is paniking. 

16 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

All-in-all proposed points seem to only introduce a rather complicated fighting strat aside unimportant aspects, not making Willow more interesting or attractive to play. And if this is at the cost of the Nightmare-Fuel factory that's BERNIE!, it gets a solid "No!" from me. I would perceive these modifications as a Willow-downgrade, more so as I'm not into niche strategies and proposed points don't really bring anything interesting to the table, but strip Willow of a consistent process of procuring NF and of guarding newbies/noobs/casuals from insanity monsters for a time (giving them the opportunity to learn how to fight Shadow Creatures). And, worse of all, a pyro downside can boost tenfold her kicking/banning from servers.

Once again (only because it's relevant) The perks I suggested weren't a whole re-work, It was just ideas for perks that could be part of a rework for the specific example of how fire-based perks could be done without greifing potential. Not to mention that any character can burn a base or resource patch down with 2 grass and 2 twigs. I'm honestly not sure why Willow got the short end of the stick.

16 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Also am not a fan of making Willow some fire-magic witch with AoE enchantment deploying gimmicks. No other character has such mechanics and imo unnecessary complicates gameplay.

"No other character has such mechanics". you mean like Wicker and her spellbooks?

 

And even if Willow shouldn't be a fire-magic witch, She was still built around fire, both mechanically and personality wise, and delegating her to a mere summoner with minor fire-based attributes can only really be described as a bastardization of her character.

 

Imagine if Blizzard decided to update overwatch, and they re-worked Mercy to focus more on her pistol and gunplay than beaning the guardian angel of the team. Or if they re-worked D.va to be out of her mek for 90% of the match and only calling in her mek for an ability or two.  Sure these characters wouldn't necessarily be "bad" after their re-works, but it entirely forsakes the reason people played them in the first place. And this is exactly what happened to willow

[MondayNight]

11 hours ago, Superlucas1231 said:

..because sanity isn't that big of an issue to a lot of people.

"...because sanity isn't that big of an issue to some forumers posting here.."

There, fixed. If you have doubts about the validity of "sanity is a consistent problem for bulk player-base at large" I invite you to dive into KLei-like vanilla dedicated public servers and see how vast majority fairs there. Hint: a lot of them are done-in by Shadows. And if you believe advanced players are getting bored of "ez pz" shadows, I invite you as well to play with various numbers of different skill people you usually find populating servers. And then be that Wicker grandma reading on tentacles and aggroing on you 4-6 Shadows of other almost-insane players close-by. Bonus if 3-4 of them are Terror Beaks. Super bonus: if doing so under rain, close to Bees in early Spring. Or in Summer when also a healthy late-game Hound Attack pops. Or when... cumulative detrimental factors (with RNG component) happen. Forumers are a tiny-tiny minority, more so the consistently-posting ones - don't forget most DST owners don't visit any forums, not even Steam ones. And the skill level for vast majority of players (casual ones, as all bulk-player game-bases are) is quite low. For them Sanity definitely is an issue even if one doesn't account for mentioned cumulative detrimental factors happening all the time. If I remember well, when there was a poll from time-to-time regarding how forumers regularly play DST, most opted for "always playing alone" ("I have no friends *insert crying emoji*"). And indeed, as a solo advanced player in vanilla settings of their own solo world, game gets quite easy - as experienced players plan ahead, minimizing input of said cumulative detrimental factors and don't have around other various skill-level players (the human factor unpredictability) that can and will f-up things. Thus I stress this again: try a 8-16 slots pub to get a taste of the "real" DS Together experience for a more comprehensive view on the state of affairs.

 

As for a Wicker's "more serious con": just make her unable to further read books when sanity reached 0. That's it. Fixed as well. Simple and neat without unnecessary debatable baggage.

 

 

@Theukon-dos - the thing I wanna stress as a conclusion regarding my objections: what you propose as rework aspects tied to "pyromancy/pyrokinetism" are marginal, contextual and in the end don't really matter to game-play or character selection. Only point, though niche as well, that catches the eye is flaming mobs to induce panic and kite/tank 1 at a time and/or for inducing additional minimal fire damage - and this can be done, as you yourself put it regarding (non-efficient) griefing, with any other character and a torch (grass and twigs). 2 clockwork knights ganging on you only occurs in Ruins in specific parts of Military, and very rare on surface via special Set Piece. But if we're talking AoE fire-damage akin Wicker's On Tentacle read, aka having Willow make some animation and random fires appear/explode around... now that's what I call "efficient griefing potential", yet with minimal game-play strat usefulness. Would be fun to see mobs running in bulk on fire and fire-spots in bases? Of course it will! But does this promote co-op in the "Together" spirit? I beg to differ.

And comparing some highly competitive FPS to a lax Survival Sandbox with "your world your rules" motto is another case of apples and oranges. DST is not that strong on the story/lore front. Also don't forget retconning and additional modifications in DST when pointing at "DST Willow is not anymore the pyromaniac from DS" (examples: past pentagram magic icon, sanity in RoG, WX's gender from male to.. plural, Voxola's "night of the fire" to day-time happening, giants' genders - now females for some reason, Warbucks from "colonizer and hunter" to "explorer of temples" then gender-bendered into another character, Willow's Walter-melon quote, Wendy's age etc)

[Harrowick]

(based off of my opinions!)

Extremely Boring, could use a few things to add more enjoy-ability.

Wolfgang, WX-78, Wilson, Wes, Winona.

In a decent spot, but could use a few things to stand out.

Maxwell, Webber, Wickerbottom.

[Theukon-dos]

12 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

As for a Wicker's "more serious con": just make her unable to further read books when sanity reached 0. That's it. Fixed as well. Simple and neat without unnecessary debatable baggage.

How in high Hrothgar is that a downside? It's a well-deserved limitation and nerf to her, sure, but that's not a downside.

12 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

 

@Theukon-dos - the thing I wanna stress as a conclusion regarding my objections: what you propose as rework aspects tied to "pyromancy/pyrokinetism" are marginal, contextual and in the end don't really matter to game-play or character selection. Only point, though niche as well, that catches the eye is flaming mobs to induce panic and kite/tank 1 at a time and/or for inducing additional minimal fire damage - and this can be done, as you yourself put it regarding (non-efficient) griefing, with any other character and a torch (grass and twigs). 2 clockwork knights ganging on you only occurs in Ruins in specific parts of Military, and very rare on surface via special Set Piece. But if we're talking AoE fire-damage akin Wicker's On Tentacle read, aka having Willow make some animation and random fires appear/explode around... now that's what I call "efficient griefing potential", yet with minimal game-play strat usefulness. Would be fun to see mobs running in bulk on fire and fire-spots in bases? Of course it will! But does this promote co-op in the "Together" spirit? I beg to differ.

Again, these where just possibilities for perks that could be added and specifically don't cause greifing. Klei could easily add some other fire-based perks @Ogrecakes did an Excellent Willow Re-work for UM mode, and with some minor changes to make it noob-friendly would be an excellent change in making Willow the Pyromancer she deserves to be

Spoiler

Also we're acting like Klei actually cares about greifers. Did I mention that Klei's done absolutly nothing to combat them outside of willow and firespread changes? you literally only need to log out of the game with an inventory full of resources and boom, you've undone possibly hours worth of work depending on what you took.

12 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

And comparing some highly competitive FPS to a lax Survival Sandbox with "your world your rules" motto is another case of apples and oranges.

Except I'm not comparing a highly-competitive FPS game to a lax Survival Sandbox game. I'm comparing 2 games with a large emphasis on character personality to demonstrate how consistency in how a character plays and their personality.

12 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

DST is not that strong on the story/lore front. Also don't forget retconning and additional modifications in DST when pointing at "DST Willow is not anymore the pyromaniac from DS" (examples: past pentagram magic icon, sanity in RoG, WX's gender from male to.. plural, Voxola's "night of the fire" to day-time happening, giants' genders - now females for some reason, Warbucks from "colonizer and hunter" to "explorer of temples" then gender-bendered into another character, Willow's Walter-melon quote, Wendy's age etc)

Except those are extreamly small details that are unimportant in the long run (except for the Warbucks changes, but let's be honest, that's just Klei caving in to social norms) None of those aspects change what was known and loved about the character, or how they play

 

Willow, once again, was Built around fire. Her personality is Pyromaniac, her design in DS was pyromaniac. She was a pyromaniac. What you gave as examples would be like an actor having a different shirt color between scenes. Willow's changes would be more like Changing the character's entire Actor between seasons.

[jpmrocks]

On 8/11/2020 at 6:25 AM, SinancoTheBest said:

Hmm, you ave some really good points and I loved the lyrics to that improvised song but I don't necesarily agree with some of the points, especially regarding Willow. Personally I find all the reworked or newly added characters in a good spot. I believe reworks also have the mentality of making less used characters more utilized, which was especially more apparent in Winona's, Willow's and Woodie's reworks at the time. Both of the objectives of rework in mind (Balancing and Popularization) here's my listing:

Wilson: The supposed starting character yet he has nothing going for him outside of his beard. Characters like pre-rework Winona are constantly compared to him yet the he is the plain character with nothing going on. It's not a bad thing to be plain but this game's direction is going for more unique abilities for all characters and it'll be a shame if he's left out, especially when characters like Willow and Woodie have become much better all-round survivalist characters. Despite this he's still a popularly picked character, owing this likely to him being the posterboy of Dont Starve.

Wes: His challenge aspect and stats are fine where they stand, amusing even but he offers nothing unique to others. I had written extensive suggestions for new additions for him to turn him more of a support-mounted character, having mostly to do with the addition of his balloon tab so that he can become more than just a character with low stats. He especially needs the rework as he's very rarely played and some hosts have the mentality of kicking or banning Wes players.

WX-78: A powerful yet rarely played character with almost no unique characteristics and a negligable downside. His downsides should be tuned up and his mechanics should be reworked from ground up.

Wolfgang: Another powerful yet rarely played character. If he is said to be better at what Wigfird does and she is picked almost 95% of the time over him, then there is really something wrong and lacking about his character. Needs reworking to become interesting to be played as.

Webber: Amongst the most played characters, his arsenal is outclassed and unappreciated. He could really use an expansion akin to how Wurt expands the Mermfolk, with mechanics involving other spider types, Lunar and Cave spiders, riding spider queens and all the interesting stuff that they can give to him.

Maxwell: A strong resource gatherer with moderately large playerbase. An expansion to his codex umbra tab and a rework to his shadow duelists is what needs prioritization.

Wickerbottom: As told by others, her popularity and claim to queendom comes in her two books. She needs an expansion and tweaking to his library, alongside reworks to her downsides to be more balanced.

Winona: Often said to be a pick & change character but she is at least somewhat unique now and her tape replacing sewing kits and boat patches, alongside her unique fast crafting-hunger mechanic sets her apart in my opinion. It is now easy to see encounter her in servers which means that her rework was mostly successful in that regard. She could still use more abilities to be desirable to those with the aformentioned change mentality; through making her tape repair burned buildings, giving her spotlights more engaging mechanics and perhaps more expansion into batteries (like single device powering potato battery that'd use potato's spoilage time) etc.

Wendy: Almost too powerful now, the rework to this already immensely popular character was welcomed and made Abigail more omnipresent in her playstyle, while also giving graves a purpose after being dug, which is nice. I'd still like if her overly powerful strength was adressed, particularly I'd have liked if they made Abigail's mechanics a combination of the daytime and the Health mechanics they first introduced and later scrapped in the first form of the update.Aa 3x3 grid where Abigail would do least damage when it's day AND Wendy is full HP while she'd do most when it's night AND Wendy is in brink of death would have been a better mechanic and make her ectoherbology more used while also requiring risks for more rewards.

Wormwood: Effective downside for his unique abilities; it's just that he could use more crafts, his blooming could be more pronounced. and his poop craft needs buffing. Overal a solid character.

Wurt: It's being told that merms bring nothing to the table but I think she does a perfect job for a DLC character, greatly expanding upon a forgotten mob while not being necessary at the same time. Her vegetarian diet is fine but could really use some new recipes as she is being left out- I don't know why Leafy Meat recipes can't be the shared territory between her and wigfrid. And as said, Merms should be more attentive when employed, attacking your attackers. She could also use a tweaking where she can spot tentacles on winter aswell.

Wortox: Very powerful warlock addition with somewhat meaningful downsides through having the easiest time with HP and Support while struggling with Hunger and Sanity. He himself is the better "always hungry" character than Wolfgang. Perhaps his soul heling distribution can be nerfed a little bit for how strong it often is but he is a good addition to the team.

Willow: I too would have liked a little more pronounced pyromancy but she is perfectly fine where she is. Her rework made her the ultimate survivalist, outclassing Wilson at everything. She is now often played and her view as the Griefer character is diminsihing. She still has meaningful fire quirks through her immunity, effective firestarting and resistance to overheating. She doesn't have meaningful downsides but it doesn't hurt her character as she doesn't bring anything unbalanced to the table; if antyhing she's the ultimate vanilla character excelling at surviving herself.

Warly: His very different playstyle is a perfect touch alongside his kitchen skills and buffs. He's a very versatile and unique character despite being very limiting at certain aspects, very good character design in my opinion.

Wigfrid: She's OP in a much more balanced way than Wolfgang through her carnivore limitations and she brings a lot to the team through her unique crafts. She is a well designed character, whose rework should only expand on what she already adds to the world.

Woodie: While some disagree that his perks and downsides are anything meaningful, he is unique character with unique abilities in his own right with his transformations being strong and his starvation mechanic after transformation the only meaningful downside to him. His rework made a fine job making him played again in servers whereas he was forgotten behind Maxwell previously.

Walter: I placed him here because I didn't have the chance to play him much yet to judge his abilities and what he brings but I appreciated the Health-sanity nechanic and lied his slingshot, with especially how easy the core bullets of Gold, Marble and Poop are to amass. He appears to be good at the ranged support character that doesn't like getting hit himself but he also has many perks that aren't really necessary for him like fast cooking. Overall will have to play him more to see if he could use some tweaking in some certain aspects of his playstyle.

 

You know what's up.

[chirsg]

Willow is special in that she is one of the lucky few characters in the game that can solo ewecus and safely beat enraged dragonfly when you forget a pan flute. She is given too much flack and is a good enough character considering she outclasses wilson in 3/4 seasons.

after webber, wilson needs a rework. he not an average powered character. he is below average. the term for wilson's kit is standard. he is the "standard" character. but seeing as he has been one of the 3 characters shown to have sat on the nightmare throne, it's not unreasonable to draw inspiration from that.

Bottom line, wilson has been power crept on and he is just a stronger wes.

[Mike23Ua]

I don’t like the idea of Willow being a fire starter- whoever came up with that idea does not know how absurdly broken that would be in the game, Willow wouldn’t NEED a lighter, she wouldn’t NEED resources to fuel a campfire she could just hold a floating fireball in her hand for free infinite light, and can light fires with the power of her mind!

No resources ever needed.. and from her animated short- it’s clear to me that Willow is NOT a magical fire starter.. but rather- Immune to fires that are already started.. 
which is why she still needs her lighter to start the fires  

[SinancoTheBest]

On 8/11/2020 at 7:43 AM, Theukon-dos said:

through her animated short, revealed that Willow wasn't just a Pyromaniac, She was a Pyrokinetic. She can literally control fire with her mind

Hmm I'm not sure about that part. In my headcannon she just uses her symbolic lighter that she finds in the closet to set fire to the orphanage. Sure, she is immune to it but I don't think she casts it like a fire mage, the animation of fire is done that way dor dramatizetion.

After all, that's just how fire is: All consuming, especially the dry wooden buildings like the orphanage.

[IceTime]

Webber should be the next role to be adjusted
I don’t like spider man who goes offline after planting spiders

 

[DaZoul]

9 hours ago, IceTime said:

Webber should be the next role to be adjusted
I don’t like spider man who goes offline after planting spiders

 

pretty sure he will still be able to do that after the rework

[sirrNaDE]

from how i see willow, she is still missing the one attribute she is known for. which is fire damage.

it is really destructive, but not really that lethal, which really makes some willow mains abandon their fire perks that she is known for.

either giving a higher chance for mobs to catch on fire or making fire deal around 2x more damage could be good enough to either protect from hounds, hunt mobs, or at least destroy spiders without risking you taking too much damage or taking too much time.

it doesnt really have to benefit only willow. anyone who wants to use fire staff or fire darts in any way could do something else than to tickle the enemies.

PS: I don't want any more reworks for willow, just this small quality of life

[MondayNight]

On 8/13/2020 at 7:21 AM, Theukon-dos said:

How in high Hrothgar is that a downside? It's a well-deserved limitation and nerf to her, sure, but that's not a downside.

I haven't written that Wicker needs any additional downside aside what she already has. If anything, in a non-competitive but co-op medium, some strong character(s) can fairly well exist without problems partaking "all-over-the-board balance". Yet, also giving leeway to some of the experience player's minor voices out there (but constantly bearing in mind player-bulk game-base's average skill level), I proposed said limitation on reading On Tentacles or books in general - when she reaches 0 sanity is unable to further read. And I consider it a fair compromise.

Again if you are an "solo world & solo play-style" advanced player, for you atm such a Wicker limitation isn't something really punishable; you probably are one of a tiny minority of advanced players who would desire DST be a lot harder (proof to that being the fact you mention some heavy-on-global-nerfs mod) and a lot heavier-oriented on the hard-core Survival side (intrinsically minimizing the Sandbox farming and elaborate building side of DST - from what I've read in past on these forums, 2 of that Uncompromising mod's devs are quite against base-building in general and a lot for "purist only-kiting" fights bonanza leaning into Battle Arena territory with mobs and bosses constantly coming for player and their builds' demise), and ignoring/disregarding rest of bulk player-base. But for player-base at large (newbies/noobs/casuals and medium-level players) such con/nerf would have fair impact. KLei will decide in the end if they cater to a tiny "try-hard" hard-Survival-oriented minority or appeal player-base at large - a spectrum between mentioned Survival and Sandbox. As someone that plays almost always in pubs with players of all skill-and-experience levels and enjoys such diverse environment, I for one hope DST won't go into any of the extremes, but considers a general "all purposes, all skill levels" line.

 

As for that Willow rework example you gave, sadly is the exact concept I've pointed at as non-desirable from my pov: basically a devastating explosion-inducing character (and it seems to be more of a League of Legends Annie clone via Fire Bernie mechanics). While seemingly pretty fun, as stated, on the Survival side with chaos-inducing scorching elements, for general purpose (considering Sandbox and elaborate base-building aspects), such a character would be quite detrimental, more so in the hands of newbies and griefers (even with your fire-spreading limitation proposals). Not to mention actual efficient usefulness seems rather niche/circumstantial and quite weak. More so, as per Sinanco's post, Willow doesn't appear to actually be a pyrokinetic - in her trailer is more plausible she took the lighter from its shelf and burned some of the flammable liquids contained in all the bottles there (they look like alcohol and petrol containers).

 

And in the end, regarding all those retcons I've pointed at, although apparently small in scope, don't forget: all DS/T character lore/story is small and up for debate to begin with. My point remains: KLei can take DS/T franchise in any direction they please as they show willingness to disregard and/or modify past aspects, and what today is speculated to be canon, tomorrow is another revision in another (speculated as well) direction. And is ok. I also have my doubts regarding "Return of Them" and reworks. Time will tell.

[pedregales]

Well, for my Tier list:

S (Desperately)

• Wes. In a solo setting, he is a decent character (in concept). In a multi-player setting, he just doesn't work. He is just a weaker Wilson. He desperately needs some good perks, even if this good perks only benefit his teammates. I mean, he has all the potential to be a bard.
• WX-78. Like Wes (but in reverse), he is mostly a better Wilson. Give him some robot parts he can craft and attach that change how you play a bit instead of just increasing stats. He would have a "point system" (say 10 points), and he can equip or de-equip robot gear according to these points (some gear will cost 1 point, while other will cost 4 points, for example), just as a quick concept, I am sure there is a better way to do it. Also, having them equipped degrades their durability over time.
• Wilson. He is just... too Wilson. Joke aside. He does need a few more things going on. Personally, I think with giving him a Wilson-version of the halloween potion-table/station it would be enough. Although I am not sure if he really needs it desperately as he is a top-pick, most of the time.

A (Major tweaks)

• Wolfgang. His wimpy form should either be improved for mobility (more speed) or removed (no need to punish someone for avoiding something they are trying to avoid anyway), while his mighty form should be improved for tanking (more damage resistance, strong grip). Also make his mighty form more useful by making him equip/carry heavy objects with little to no penalty to speed (this includes piggy back, marble suit, sculptures, etc.). I also think his mighty form should not get any natural speed boost at all.
• Wigfrid. She is in a mostly good spot, but she needs to differentiate from Wolfgang (or the other way around, but since Wolfgang is "the strongman", and she is "the performance artist", I think it makes sense who to differentiate). And based on her title, something I have liked to think about is to give her different roles. At her core she is just a performer named Wigfrid that has life-leeching abilities, and when she uses a specific headgear, she plays the role of:
  • Wathgrithr, the valkryrie (by using battle helm). In this role she has a battle aura (which increases the damage of all surrounding allies and herself by a tiny amount), receives extra damage resistance (on top of the battle helm's damage resistance). While playing this role the battle spear also does more damage (on top of the damage modifier). She loses sanity when eating vegetables while playing this role. This would be a combat-support role
  • Wennyfer (placeholder name), the druid (by using the druid headgear, or druid garland). In this role she has a health and sanity aura around her (she is only affected by the health aura), does slightly less damage, and makes plants around her grow slightly faster. Wigfrid also gets a druid's staff that let's her do a bit of damage (slightly less than axe damage) from a distance (damage from the staff is unaffected by any damage modifications), while playing this role, the druid staff also deals some splash damage around the enemy hit. She loses sanity when eating meat while playing this role. This would be a heavy support role.
• Maxwell. I think he could use a few "dark spells" to enhance himself (for example, a spell that give him his shadow force in Forge: every X hits to the same enemy summons a bunch of shadows that deal a ton of damage to the enemy, lasts 8 minutes. Another example could be a shield that protects Maxwell from all forms of affliction or residual damage -the putrid cloud of toadstool no longer rots Maxwell's inventory, fire damage, being frozen by Deerclops or Klaus' deer, mind control, etc.-, lasts for 6 minutes). But I also think his shadows need a few tweaks:
  • A new "shadow worker" should replaces the shadow logger, miner, and digger, doing all of that depending on what is around them (they cost 4 nightmare fuel, and cost 30% max sanity).
  • And then he should have a set of fighting shadows: the shadow knight (current shadow duelist, but with a lot more health, some damage resistance and damage. Requires a dark sword and a dark suit, same max sanity cost as a shadow duelist) and the shadow mage (does little damage from a safe distance, but has very little health. Costs a telelocator staff and 3 nightmare fuel, same max sanity cost as a shadow duelist).

B (Some tweaks)

• Webber. One interesting concept I saw is to give Webber a leaping attack similar to a spider warrior.
• Warly. He is potentially the best character. But requires too much build-up for that. Plus remembering recipes (or trial and erroring every time) is annoying. Basically, I think he just needs to be slightly less picky, and we need a recipe book we can look for, which would make experimentation more fun.
• Winona. Overall, I think she needs to have more health or deal a bit more damage to properly represent she is a woman that has worked with heavy tools/machinery. I also have 2 suggestions for her depending if Wagstaff is ever added:
  • If Wagstaff is ever added, she needs a major tweak to further differentiate her from him, maybe even giving him her machines and she taking a completely different role altogether (mostly towards the handywoman archetype, as her title suggests).
  • If Wagstaff is never added, she mostly needs to differentiate her generators. She doesn't need 2 of them. I already suggested once that the generator should be the main generator and the GEMerator should be an upgrade to it that let's you change how the machines around it work. She also needs to be able to turn on/off her machines.
• Walter. I mostly think he is fine, the biggest thing he needs is that Woby's inventory should be exclusive to him (however he cannot store "one of a kind" items like chester's eyebone in there). Though I would have traded his "fearless, but fearful of being hurt" to "fearless, but has a ton of allergies that he has to be careful about", as it makes much more sense.

C (Minor tweaks)

• Wickerbottom. She is still a solid character to pick honestly. However, the changes I would like to see on her is to make her more frail (reduced health) so she depends a bit more on her books, and many more books with a combat/trap oriented focus (like on tentacles, but would also be nice if the end is nigh didn't hit you at all without having to wear an eyebrella or similar items).
• Wendy. Could use a change in how the ghostly elixirs work. The vast majority are pointless, and there is one (nightshade nostrum) that is nearly useless.
• Willow. I really think she is in the perfect spot right now. I really don't know what to add in general for her.
• Woodie. Like Willow, I can't really imagine many changes/improvements.

[Theukon-dos]

6 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

I haven't written that Wicker needs any additional downside aside what she already has. If anything, in a non-competitive but co-op medium, some strong character(s) can fairly well exist without problems partaking "all-over-the-board balance". Yet, also giving leeway to some of the experience player's minor voices out there (but constantly bearing in mind player-bulk game-base's average skill level), I proposed said limitation on reading On Tentacles or books in general - when she reaches 0 sanity is unable to further read. And I consider it a fair compromise.

Her downsides are non-existent. Both Sleeping and food spoilage tend to be largely ignorable.

Additionally, While balance isn't nearly as important in PvE games, I will admit. It is important to still have balance or you risk the game becomeing stale and boring. Also, but this logic, Underpowered characters should never have gotten buffed on the basis of it being a PvE game

6 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Again if you are an "solo world & solo play-style" advanced player, for you atm such a Wicker limitation isn't something really punishable; you probably are one of a tiny minority of advanced players who would desire DST be a lot harder (proof to that being the fact you mention some heavy-on-global-nerfs mod) and a lot heavier-oriented on the hard-core Survival side (intrinsically minimizing the Sandbox farming and elaborate building side of DST

This is true. However.

A. It is entirely irrelevant to the argument

B. Even if I was a more casual player, I'd still want more and better downsides because that's what truly separates the characters in terms of how they play. Wigfrid's upsides may be more suited for fighting, But it's her carnivores downside that makes her play truly distinctly.

6 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

- from what I've read in past on these forums, 2 of that Uncompromising mod's devs are quite against base-building in general and a lot for "purist only-kiting" fights bonanza leaning into Battle Arena territory with mobs and bosses constantly coming for player and their builds' demise), and ignoring/disregarding rest of bulk player-base. But for player-base at large (newbies/noobs/casuals and medium-level players) such con/nerf would have fair impact. KLei will decide in the end if they cater to a tiny "try-hard" hard-Survival-oriented minority or appeal player-base at large - a spectrum between mentioned Survival and Sandbox. As someone that plays almost always in pubs with players of all skill-and-experience levels and enjoys such diverse environment, I for one hope DST won't go into any of the extremes, but considers a general "all purposes, all skill levels" line.

This is a Strawman. I never mentioned uncompromising mode. Hell, I never mentioned the game's difficulty for that matter.

6 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

 

As for that Willow rework example you gave, sadly is the exact concept I've pointed at as non-desirable from my pov: basically a devastating explosion-inducing character (and it seems to be more of a League of Legends Annie clone via Fire Bernie mechanics). While seemingly pretty fun, as stated, on the Survival side with chaos-inducing scorching elements, for general purpose (considering Sandbox and elaborate base-building aspects), such a character would be quite detrimental, more so in the hands of newbies and griefers (even with your fire-spreading limitation proposals). Not to mention actual efficient usefulness seems rather niche/circumstantial and quite weak.

Newbies perhaps, though they'd probably learn pretty quickly not to use the massive ball of fire near base. As far as greifers go, As I said, Klei really don't seem to care about preventing them at all. So I'd consider this a mute point unless Klei takes more initiative.

6 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

More so, as per Sinanco's post, Willow doesn't appear to actually be a pyrokinetic - in her trailer is more plausible she took the lighter from its shelf and burned some of the flammable liquids contained in all the bottles there (they look like alcohol and petrol containers).

This is fair, Though the fact that that it cuts straight from Willow being lunged at by the terror beak to the explosions is a good sign that she's the source of said explosions.

Also, She's not dead. Again, The explosion was enough to, without exaggeration,  Blast the door to Smithereens

Spoiler

As a matter of fact, not only did she Survive the blast, but a few frames later she's right behind the door standing Menacingly in the doorframe

Spoiler

Even if she could survive the blast, She would have been blasted into the walls or doorframe, and would in no way be in shape to stand there like that. I can't think of any possible way for the events to unfold like they did unless Willow was the direct cause of the explosion

6 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

And in the end, regarding all those retcons I've pointed at, although apparently small in scope, don't forget: all DS/T character lore/story is small and up for debate to begin with. My point remains: KLei can take DS/T franchise in any direction they please as they show willingness to disregard and/or modify past aspects, and what today is speculated to be canon, tomorrow is another revision in another (speculated as well) direction. And is ok. I also have my doubts regarding "Return of Them" and reworks. Time will tell.

 Yep. Really it all comes down to what Klei wants to do. Weather we like it or not.

[MondayNight]

14 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Her downsides are non-existent. Both Sleeping and food spoilage tend to be largely ignorable.

Additionally, While balance isn't nearly as important in PvE games, I will admit. It is important to still have balance or you risk the game becomeing stale and boring. Also, but this logic, Underpowered characters should never have gotten buffed on the basis of it being a PvE game

Again you are dismissing majority of player-base and their (rather low) average level. For them (newbies/noobs/casuals and moderately experienced players) sleeping and food spoilage aren't "largely ignorable". Go into pubs, KLei vanilla Survival variety, and see first-hand how most players fair, more so the Wicker ones. Also balance is important in any game, but in this case we're slipping into strict-balance territory - and that can be reserved for competitive gaming where it matters; DST isn't (and shouldn't) be competitive as a default. And yes, by that logic "underpowered" characters shouldn't have been buffed as well - and I for one never was a proponent of re-balance to begin with: for example I liked old DST Woodie (was my past main till rework) as he was without considering him anything but ok for myself at that moment. Yet other people complained, character remodels came and here we are, discussing in the confinement of preset iffy situation.

 

14 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

This is true. However.

A. It is entirely irrelevant to the argument

B. Even if I was a more casual player, I'd still want more and better downsides because that's what truly separates the characters in terms of how they play. Wigfrid's upsides may be more suited for fighting, But it's her carnivores downside that makes her play truly distinctly.

It is relevant: it establishes how well-versed you are into understanding player-base as a whole to give substance to your view on character rebalance considering general average skill in said player-base. Else you can slip into overestimating such general skill value and propose too punishing downsides corresponding to your advanced solo player mindset (upper-level Dunning-Kruger error). Again if you don't believe what I'm writing, go into pubs to see for yourself that average skill level. And look at general character picks as well: if Wolfgang, Wicker and WX had such puny downsides for general populace at large, they would be top picks - yet they aren't.

And Wigfrid is a special case: she has excellent armor from get-go (accessible at any point for the modicum price of 2x Gold and 2x Stone) plus HP stealing and Sanity gain via fighting - thus such aspects can help player-base quite well, mitigating damage intake, insanity monsters' presence and lagging/rubberbanding likewise.

 

14 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

This is a Strawman. I never mentioned uncompromising mode. Hell, I never mentioned the game's difficulty for that matter.

Once more, looking at what you give as an "do it kinda like this" example - is about context; it establishes the basic angle from which one goes into solving the "character rebalance issue". Having a bias (solo advanced player, not familiar enough-or-at-all with pubs, disregard for low-to-mid skill range players' experiences, disdain for elaborate base-building and Sandbox farming, etc) will rhetorically play a lot into how the "character rebalance issue" is solved. Perhaps you haven't mentioned game difficulty directly, but asking for "more punishing downsides" is straightforwardly tied to it.

As for "I never mentioned uncompromising mode" (and is mod) - just look at this:

On 8/13/2020 at 7:21 AM, Theukon-dos said:

 @Ogrecakes did an Excellent Willow Re-work for UM mode, and with some minor changes to make it noob-friendly would be an excellent change in making Willow the Pyromancer she deserves to be

  Reveal hidden contents

 

You outright referenced one of its 2 mentioned lead modders, it's abbreviation and some technical notes from one of its updates. The line is pretty much clear.

 

14 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Though the fact that that it cuts straight from Willow being lunged at by the terror beak to the explosions is a good sign that she's the source of said explosions.

Also, She's not dead. Again, The explosion was enough to, without exaggeration,  Blast the door to Smithereens

  Reveal hidden contents

As a matter of fact, not only did she Survive the blast, but a few frames later she's right behind the door standing Menacingly in the doorframe

  Reveal hidden contents

Even if she could survive the blast, She would have been blasted into the walls or doorframe, and would in no way be in shape to stand there like that. I can't think of any possible way for the events to unfold like they did unless Willow was the direct cause of the explosion

Terror is blocking the door, while Willow sits at the opposite end of room:

It stands to reason she threw one of those flammable bottles lighten up with her future trademark Lighter (sitting on those shelves). Because at no point in rest of DS/T materials was Willow pictured as having mental fire powers (pyrokinesis). And don't forget: in the end is a cartoon - like other entertainment media animated characters, for example: taking by mistake a dynamite bar to smoke like some cigar, only to have it blown into their faces and merely making it black from soot; while realistically that would've blown their head off in a messy pulp. So of course Willow dramatically exited the fire in triumph over that Shadow as opposite to.. being a charred splatter on the walls. Realism in cartoons is not really an argument, more so if kids/teens are target-audience.

[Superlucas1231]

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Again you are dismissing majority of player-base and their (rather low) average level. For them (newbies/noobs/casuals and moderately experienced players) sleeping and food spoilage aren't "largely ignorable". Go into pubs, KLei vanilla Survival variety, and see first-hand how most players fair, more so the Wicker ones. Also balance is important in any game, but in this case we're slipping into strict-balance territory - and that can be reserved for competitive gaming where it matters; DST isn't (and shouldn't) be competitive as a default. And yes, by that logic "underpowered" characters shouldn't have been buffed as well - and I for one never was a proponent of re-balance to begin with: for example I liked old DST Woodie (was my past main till rework) as he was without considering him anything but ok for myself at that moment. Yet other people complained, character remodels came and here we are, discussing in the confinement of preset iffy situation.

Pubs, regardless what game you play, are always going to be filled with people who are either new, playing casually, or in-experience with the game. You shouldn't base every aspect of game balance on pubs alone because their is going to be many people who want a harder game experience. By your argument, Warly, Wormwood, Max, Wurt, Wes, literally anything that isn't in autumn-winter, and any hard content in the game is automatically bad because pubs can't access them; and easy content and characters (Wendy, Wilson, Winona, etc.) are objectively good because everyone can do them. Just because a character has a high player count, doesn't mean that the whole community is going to like them, it means that pubs are going to like them. Why do you think Wilson and Wendy are the higher picks than the rest? They're both the most easy-to-digest characters in the game, ofc pubs are going to pick them over harder characters. . 

And if a character is too hard for someone, what's exactly stopping them for picking someone else? Not like every character has to be like Wendy and watch the game literally play itself for you. What would be the point of playing as other characters if they are all easy to play but they have one gimmick that makes the game easier in one way or another? You said it yourself the Wicker was a hard character because of her insanity, Klei themselves know that Wicker is, supposedly, a hard character (She's is labeled as a grim character after all). So, why should she be made easier/not changed just for pubs when plenty of Wicker mains and forum users are asking her to be chaged to be made harder? Why should one group of people be ignored just because pubs don't play that character enough?

Sorry if I come off frustrated in this post but it the way I see it, this just comes off as asking someone who literally just got the game what Klei should do to fix Wicker in stead of asking someone who mains her. Trying to put this logic into characters like Wes and other challenge characters is just going to alienate the people who are already playing as them. 

[MondayNight]

1 hour ago, Superlucas1231 said:

Pubs, regardless what game you play, are always going to be filled with people who are either new, playing casually, or in-experience with the game. You shouldn't base every aspect of game balance on pubs alone because their is going to be many people who want a harder game experience. By your argument, Warly, Wormwood, Max, Wurt, Wes, literally anything that isn't in autumn-winter, and any hard content in the game is automatically bad because pubs can't access them; and easy content and characters (Wendy, Wilson, Winona, etc.) are objectively good because everyone can do them. Just because a character has a high player count, doesn't mean that the whole community is going to like them, it means that pubs are going to like them. Why do you think Wilson and Wendy are the higher picks than the rest? They're both the most easy-to-digest characters in the game, ofc pubs are going to pick them over harder characters. . 

And if a character is too hard for someone, what's exactly stopping them for picking someone else? Not like every character has to be like Wendy and watch the game literally play itself for you. What would be the point of playing as other characters if they are all easy to play but they have one gimmick that makes the game easier in one way or another? You said it yourself the Wicker was a hard character because of her insanity, Klei themselves know that Wicker is, supposedly, a hard character (She's is labeled as a grim character after all). So, why should she be made easier/not changed just for pubs when plenty of Wicker mains and forum users are asking her to be chaged to be made harder? Why should one group of people be ignored just because pubs don't play that character enough?

Sorry if I come off frustrated in this post but it the way I see it, this just comes off as asking someone who literally just got the game what Klei should do to fix Wicker in stead of asking someone who mains her. Trying to put this logic into characters like Wes and other challenge characters is just going to alienate the people who are already playing as them. 

I think you are mistaking my main point: is not to make anything easier, characters included. Is to not make them harder because, as stated, vast majority of player-base is having it already hard with game/characters in current iteration. I've wrote: "you are dismissing majority of player-base" - and that's my other point: for solo experienced players to not dismiss bulk player-base input at large even if they are newbies/noobs/casuals/mid experienced. Game and characters don't need to be hard on the "character-main experienced players" so that it's hard as a character "in general" - because if so, will hypothetical be proverbial hell for rest player-base.

And there are a lot of pubs out there, not just vanilla Survival akin KLei's official ones. There are loads of communities out there with their own dedicated servers freely opened to public where one can experience all game content; and you'll find in those servers people of all skill levels - and I counted them as well in my "pubs" assertion. Indeed most of players there are - once more - newbies/noobs/casuals/mid experienced. For their sake and as a compromise with the vocal tiny minority of advanced players demanding harder settings in general (world and characters alike) I for one proposed that limitation on Wicker's book readings - can't go further after reaching 0 sanity.

Plus, if we're going into "asking someone who mains her", regarding Willow as a Willow-main for a long time, even before her rework, I stress once again: I don't want her to become a walking bomb - even now am being kicked from servers from time-to-time when spawning; with the K-BOOMY proposal in this thread I fear I would either need to play only on my server, with friends, or quit her in future. "Be careful what you wish for".. and I for one am being very careful - of what others wish for me it seems.

[Mike23Ua]

For me the two characters in largest need of a rework are Wes & Wilson.. and I honestly can’t pick which needs it worse.

Keep in mind the following: Each rework so far has brought brand new content into the game, by the means of new gameplay elements exclusive to the character your playing.. This could range from Craftable structures, Craftable potions, Character Specific “Kit” Items and more.

I will not go into great detail on every single character who has been reworked- I will just state the obvious- They ALL have a Minimum of 3 new items they will constantly be lugging around inside their inventories.

This trend even extends to Wurt & Walter the two Newest DLC characters.

Which means the current characters heaviest in line for a rework are Wes, Wilson, Wolfgang, Webber

(and yes in that order)

Wilson- Has traveled through 5 randomly generated worlds, rescued Maxwell from the Shadow Throne, and becomes it’s new captive before being rescued and replaced by Charlie (I didn’t spoiler tag this because it’s literally the first few seconds of the starting animation to DST)

Wes- There are better ways to make characters challenging, without those characters directly impacting other players. The reason people DONT Want a Wes in their team isn’t because they hate your hardcore flexing skills- It’s the fact that he is 125% pointless to pick over literally ANYONE Else.

For me Wormwood and Warly are a hundred times more challenging to play then plain old boring Wes, but what THEY do that WES does NOT do is they can provide buffs, armors, good etc to their team mates where as Wes is an overall drag down for all people playing the game.

The TL:DR- Picking Wes in his current form is the biggest way of trolling, it doesn’t matter how good you are at playing him, what matters is that he offers absolutely nothing to help others around him.. who did not also pick to suffer through the “Challenge” of playing as him.

Wormwood is my favorite “challenge” character because he can provide food for days in the simplest of ways, free armor, free base protection, free living logs, and the only thing that is challenging about him is he can’t heal by eating food.. I mean- Theres a dedicated medical tab in the game... Why can we even heal by shoving Tacos in our mouths at all?

[TemporarySolutn]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

For me the two characters in largest need of a rework are Wes & Wilson.. and I honestly can’t pick which needs it worse.

Keep in mind the following: Each rework so far has brought brand new content into the game, by the means of new gameplay elements exclusive to the character your playing.. This could range from Craftable structures, Craftable potions, Character Specific “Kit” Items and more.

I will not go into great detail on every single character who has been reworked- I will just state the obvious- They ALL have a Minimum of 3 new items they will constantly be lugging around inside their inventories.

This trend even extends to Wurt & Walter the two Newest DLC characters.

Which means the current characters heaviest in line for a rework are Wes, Wilson, Wolfgang, Webber

(and yes in that order)

Wilson- Has traveled through 5 randomly generated worlds, rescued Maxwell from the Shadow Throne, and becomes it’s new captive before being rescued and replaced by Charlie (I didn’t spoiler tag this because it’s literally the first few seconds of the starting animation to DST)

Wes- There are better ways to make characters challenging, without those characters directly impacting other players. The reason people DONT Want a Wes in their team isn’t because they hate your hardcore flexing skills- It’s the fact that he is 125% pointless to pick over literally ANYONE Else.

For me Wormwood and Warly are a hundred times more challenging to play then plain old boring Wes, but what THEY do that WES does NOT do is they can provide buffs, armors, good etc to their team mates where as Wes is an overall drag down for all people playing the game.

The TL:DR- Picking Wes in his current form is the biggest way of trolling, it doesn’t matter how good you are at playing him, what matters is that he offers absolutely nothing to help others around him.. who did not also pick to suffer through the “Challenge” of playing as him.

Wormwood is my favorite “challenge” character because he can provide food for days in the simplest of ways, free armor, free base protection, free living logs, and the only thing that is challenging about him is he can’t heal by eating food.. I mean- Theres a dedicated medical tab in the game... Why can we even heal by shoving Tacos in our mouths at all?

Your opinions are so bad they are somehow completely wrong despite being an opinion. Wes is SUPPOSED TO BE BAD and Wilson is SUPPOSED TO BE NEUTRAL, NEW PLAYER FRIENDLY, D E F A U L T?

[Theukon-dos]

7 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Again you are dismissing majority of player-base and their (rather low) average level. For them (newbies/noobs/casuals and moderately experienced players) sleeping and food spoilage aren't "largely ignorable". Go into pubs, KLei vanilla Survival variety, and see first-hand how most players fair, more so the Wicker ones. Also balance is important in any game, but in this case we're slipping into strict-balance territory - and that can be reserved for competitive gaming where it matters; DST isn't (and shouldn't) be competitive as a default.

As has been said, DST isn't just pubs. and thus shouldn't be balanced purely around pubs. Additionally, Wicker's One of the most powerful characters in the game, so if any character where to get an impactful downside it should be her.

7 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

And yes, by that logic "underpowered" characters shouldn't have been buffed as well - and I for one never was a proponent of re-balance to begin with: for example I liked old DST Woodie (was my past main till rework) as he was without considering him anything but ok for myself at that moment. Yet other people complained, character remodels came and here we are, discussing in the confinement of preset iffy situation.

Kudos for not slipping into double standards territory. You have my respect for that.

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It is relevant: it establishes how well-versed you are into understanding player-base as a whole to give substance to your view on character rebalance considering general average skill in said player-base. Else you can slip into overestimating such general skill value and propose too punishing downsides corresponding to your advanced solo player mindset (upper-level Dunning-Kruger error). Again if you don't believe what I'm writing, go into pubs to see for yourself that average skill level. And look at general character picks as well: if Wolfgang, Wicker and WX had such puny downsides for general populace at large, they would be top picks - yet they aren't.

Here's an idea, Maybe instead of balancing around the lowest level of play, We should assume that players are able to Improve and get better at the game. While DST may not be the uncompromising wilderness survival game that DS was, but It is still, at it's heart, a Rouge-like. A game where the fail state is simply how the player improves and get better. While again, DST isn't meant to be uncompromising like it's predicessor. Balancing the game to minimize this aspect would not be a good direction to take the game in.

 

Additionally, Just because the big 3 are so broken doesn't mean they're particularly fun or interesting. There's a lot more nuance to analyzing lists like these than you give credit for.

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And Wigfrid is a special case: she has excellent armor from get-go (accessible at any point for the modicum price of 2x Gold and 2x Stone) plus HP stealing and Sanity gain via fighting - thus such aspects can help player-base quite well, mitigating damage intake, insanity monsters' presence and lagging/rubberbanding likewise.

I wasn't talking about how popular or played Wigfrid is (though this did influence my choice to use her as an example) I was talking about how It was her downsides that made her play differently and uniquely from the rest of the cast.

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Once more, looking at what you give as an "do it kinda like this" example - is about context; it establishes the basic angle from which one goes into solving the "character rebalance issue". Having a bias (solo advanced player, not familiar enough-or-at-all with pubs, disregard for low-to-mid skill range players' experiences, disdain for elaborate base-building and Sandbox farming, etc) will rhetorically play a lot into how the "character rebalance issue" is solved. Perhaps you haven't mentioned game difficulty directly, but asking for "more punishing downsides" is straightforwardly tied to it.

I'd consider myself a mid-range skill player. I don't do raid bosses or ruins runs (Mostly because I don't see the point.) Even if I do want the game to be harder, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about character design and who needs updated. I've Also explained why I want more prominent downsides. It's not because it makes the game harder. It's because downsides are what Define a character and make them play uniquely from everyone else. (atleast I think I mentioned that. you can stab me if I didn't)

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As for "I never mentioned uncompromising mode" (and is mod) - just look at this:

You outright referenced one of its 2 mentioned lead modders, it's abbreviation and some technical notes from one of its updates. The line is pretty much clear.

alright, you got me there.

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Terror is blocking the door, while Willow sits at the opposite end of room:

It stands to reason she threw one of those flammable bottles lighten up with her future trademark Lighter (sitting on those shelves). Because at no point in rest of DS/T materials was Willow pictured as having mental fire powers (pyrokinesis). And don't forget: in the end is a cartoon - like other entertainment media animated characters, for example: taking by mistake a dynamite bar to smoke like some cigar, only to have it blown into their faces and merely making it black from soot; while realistically that would've blown their head off in a messy pulp. So of course Willow dramatically exited the fire in triumph over that Shadow as opposite to.. being a charred splatter on the walls. Realism in cartoons is not really an argument, more so if kids/teens are target-audience.

First of all, The Terrorbeak lunged her, meaning it was also likely between her and the shelf aswell. Secondly, you can't just use Cartoon physics as a cop out. That's like saying "it's all a dream". It's boring and could solve basically any problem depending on how you look at it.

3 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

I think you are mistaking my main point: is not to make anything easier, characters included. Is to not make them harder because, as stated, vast majority of player-base is having it already hard with game/characters in current iteration. I've wrote: "you are dismissing majority of player-base" - and that's my other point: for solo experienced players to not dismiss bulk player-base input at large even if they are newbies/noobs/casuals/mid experienced. Game and characters don't need to be hard on the "character-main experienced players" so that it's hard as a character "in general" - because if so, will hypothetical be proverbial hell for rest player-base.

See my third point.

3 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

And there are a lot of pubs out there, not just vanilla Survival akin KLei's official ones. There are loads of communities out there with their own dedicated servers freely opened to public where one can experience all game content; and you'll find in those servers people of all skill levels - and I counted them as well in my "pubs" assertion. Indeed most of players there are - once more - newbies/noobs/casuals/mid experienced. For their sake and as a compromise with the vocal tiny minority of advanced players demanding harder settings in general (world and characters alike) I for one proposed that limitation on Wicker's book readings - can't go further after reaching 0 sanity.

Yes, There is a mix of player skill and experience. As with what happens in all pubs. But from everything I've gathered, You want the game, or at the very least the characters, To be balanced around the lowest common denominator in the skill bracket. A way which would not be a good way to go.

3 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Plus, if we're going into "asking someone who mains her", regarding Willow as a Willow-main for a long time, even before her rework, I stress once again: I don't want her to become a walking bomb - even now am being kicked from servers from time-to-time when spawning; with the K-BOOMY proposal in this thread I fear I would either need to play only on my server, with friends, or quit her in future. "Be careful what you wish for".. and I for one am being very careful - of what others wish for me it seems.

I don't want Willow to be a greif machine. I want willow to be the pyromaniac she was designed to be.