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Infinite Heat by Freezing


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That looks like copper tho.

Gold and copper are different in that, even w/o the heat deletion bug, you can tame them with one and two selfcooling turbines respectively. Gold is quite compact, copper is still acceptable. So the builds I showed before basicly work, if you double the turbine for copper.

They fail for iron volcanoes. Minumum is 3 selfcooling turbines, which makes the build a bit bulky for a tamer. 

Active cooling, with a single turbine, works for all kind of metal volcanoes, but it struggles a bit with strong iron ones. For example I'd put a mech door with a atmosensor to seal off the water basin, just in case something flashes to steam. Iron has higher SHC than gold/copper. Conductivity might be enough but I wouldn't bet on it. Once the AT manages to condense everything back to water, the door opens again.

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That one is copper, i've got a gold one with a the same design just off screen(and with the thermo sensor in an older spot which is why I used this one for the image).  I've made the same thing for iron on another map and it was fine as well.  Now I would have to go back and verify.  I may have had cooling externally on a few of them since they were in close enough proximity to other things but I've been using this sort of design for all the metal geysers.  It bleeds off heat very quickly with a steel door and gold metal tiles.

Spoiler

20200725111621_1.thumb.jpg.7c465c600258d0f9daa21258b5182504.jpg

It does look like I moved the tuner out, thought It could be that I didn't have the design for not having it run during an eruption back then.

Watching it erupt did show me that it is probably using the liquid dropping on a debris heat deletion bug since mass is being added but it looked like the temp was only dropping.  It did cool down enough to drop the ore way before another eruption.

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1 hour ago, 0xFADE said:

Watching it erupt did show me that it is probably using the liquid dropping on a debris heat deletion bug since mass is being added but it looked like the temp was only dropping.  It did cool down enough to drop the ore way before another eruption.

I use a very similar metal volcano tamer (also based on Brothgar's version with some tweaks).  Thinking about it I bet that all designs like this use that bug and if it is fixed I'll have to carefully study my volcano tamers to make sure they don't fail.

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1 minute ago, mathturtle said:

I use a very similar metal volcano tamer (also based on Brothgar's version with some tweaks).  Thinking about it I bet that all designs like this use that bug and if it is fixed I'll have to carefully study my volcano tamers to make sure they don't fail.

Yeah.  It might break them but it will also make them produce more power.  I had a pretty high steam pressure in that room.  So there are a lot of ways of sinking the heat.

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I think, some SG boiler designs are affected too, especially the ones derived form the OSHA Hater. I changed today my metal tile configuration in my 240kg boiler to this:

PhaseChangeAffectedBoiler.png.df9d97f27ed929ff6170179463c8fbce.png

to circumvent, that phase changes draw heat from two tiles... Now the beast spits me into the face, as it is now massively heat positive up to the point, that it don't need any extra heat at all and that crude oil is converted to petroleum on the drop off point of crude oil here:

StableBead240kg.thumb.png.745627a1abc0f831e8e236bd671d0c6d.png

The pic is an older one... but with the new configuration, some of the crude is already converted to petrol here.

Don't get me wrong, i was expecting that it would be heat positive, as SHC of sour gas is higher than that of crude oil, but it wasn't showing it until the recent change of the metal tile distribution.

Btw. my current favorite metal volcano tamer derived from this:

https://github.com/oni-guides/oni-guides/blob/master/self-powered-metal-volcano-tamer/self-powered-metal-volcano-tamer.png

modified automation:

MetalVolcanoTamer.png.7e4e944a2811f961ea8c2776b0ad538f.png

The filter is there to let packages through, which wont change within given time frame... one could work with more filters for longer time frames. Everything else is quite simple... only let packets through, if there are packets after the loader... This works stable also after the temp swap patch for, as you see, even iron volcanos.

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On 7/24/2020 at 2:17 PM, mathmanican said:

You can also do this with water, 

I remember building a steam condenser that cooled the water to about room temperature.  My later optimizations never got the performance of my first 'dirty' build, so I assumed the problem had been fixed.  Perhaps it was simply a change in my design that eliminated the multiplication of the effect.  If I mange to get a day off, I might play around with it again using what I've seen in these recent threads.

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On 7/24/2020 at 9:54 PM, mathmanican said:

Have you played with a liquefying and reheating, all in one tile?  Similar to what I posted on page 2 and 3 of the molten lead for the win post. 

image.png.4ccac26239dbe0cea14260ad796028cf.png 

I tried this, but as the molten debris is mixing with the liquid aluminium, the resulting liquid is getting too hot, so it wastes energy. When i use 75kg liquid lead to heat 100kg of aluminium, both constantly swap places as heating liquid and heated debris. :cry:

I tried another approach though to aluminiumfall :livid:, so i did this small modification to the freezer furnace:

FreezerFurnaceModification.thumb.png.3911e95c8daefd7c7092f79d966665e7.png

And i changed the temperature gauge of the cooling chamber to 427°C to minimize the heat transfered to the ignious rock, while sustaining full speed.

Edit: this has some cold start problems though, cause too much liquid buildup on top of the door.

Next try:

FreezerFurnaceMod2.thumb.png.12ed6257db6e75edb8790d2740f04f51.png

75kg lead for the fall.

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4 hours ago, TripleM999 said:

Edit: this has some cold start problems though, cause too much liquid buildup on top of the door.

I found the trick, but hadn't posted it yet. Putting a small blob of molten aluminum on top of the lead should fix the cold start problem.

Edit: Then you shouldn't need the door.

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36 minutes ago, ghkbrew said:

I found the trick, but hadn't posted it yet. Putting a small blob of molten aluminum on top of the lead should fix the cold start problem.

Edit: Then you shouldn't need the door.

Yeah, i want the door for turning it on and off... did again some slight modification.

FreezerFurnaceMod3.png.100d949671869fadda803b20b7993da8.png

2 Blobs of 75kg lead. Btw. i tried your furnace with lead only. Can and will work, but not that impressive, probably cause of low SHC. :twisted: Maybe salt could be another candidate, though TC is quite low, but quite high SHC.

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1 hour ago, TripleM999 said:

i tried your furnace with lead only. Can and will work, but not that impressive, probably cause of low SHC

Yeah, the lower Tc is an issue too. The max heat extracted is flow rate * SHC * ( Tc - 125C).

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6 hours ago, TripleM999 said:

the resulting liquid is getting too hot, so it wastes energy.

When I played with this last year, I used liquid to transfer heat, because I wanted the x625 multiplier. I wonder if conveyor bridges are sufficient to keep things cycling, and control the heat flow.

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2 hours ago, mathmanican said:

I wonder if conveyor bridges are sufficient to keep things cycling, and control the heat flow.

I think, the bridges don't conduct that good with debris. And as soon, as the debris melts, you are at the same point, where the liquids gets too hot.

Btw. doubled the fun:

FreezerFurnaceDouble.thumb.png.689c7308396c4ce62c0aadde5622aec2.png

FreezerFurnaceDouble.sav

Two Aquatuners are probably not enough for cooling.

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1 hour ago, TripleM999 said:

doubled the fun:

Awesome! I tore out the second side of my prototype, because I could figure out how to get the aluminum debris back to the top.

 

Have you benchmarked the output? I bet you could improve the production by increasing conduction with the producing tiles. Right now it's all going through one metal tile - metal tile contact. You could extend the temp shifts one tile close to the middle. And maybe add horizontal conveyor bridges behind the producing tiles.

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8 hours ago, ghkbrew said:

And maybe add horizontal conveyor bridges behind the producing tiles.

Already did.

FreezerFurnaceDoubleMod1.png.accb185be6a289587087dfe06a63f8df.png

But i think, adding a second wont hurt. :biggrin-new:

FreezerFurnaceDoubleMod2.png.519415917368a3c358ade5b9efd83a51.png

Next trick from the magic box, filling the distributor with super coolant. Had to replace the liquid lead though, as it had a hard time to become liquid at the start and will clog the sweeper.

FreezerFurnaceDoubleMod3.png.2ec7bfdf3c8436d6f70b2a0ba2aad105.png

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On 7/24/2020 at 12:02 PM, Lifegrow said:

Maybe i'm way off here, but wouldn't it be best to keep these sort of discoveries primarily in the bug tracker section? Let's face it, this thread is a humble-brag of achievement more than a discussion topic of the initial issue.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

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7 minutes ago, thewreckedangle said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Spoiler

Hadn't replied to all the other posts as I didn't want to derail the thread - however as you specifically targeted me I thought i'd highlight why you're a clown. 

First topic on oil wells was an initial post opening up for discussion - as it hadn't been posted before on the forums/reddit as far as I was aware. It was highlighted to me that there was an existing bug report (within which there were many other existing bug reports also listed) for various odd behaviours with oil wells/broken piping/back pressure, but it was nothing to do with free water usage - so I posted it to the community. It wasn't a flex, nor "a complete build for your base", nor "l3370rz named build 2.0" - they were information for the community, directed at the community - the devs are already aware of the issues, or should be if they follow the bug tracker section.

Second topic is a PSA in case people were having troubles with gasses leaking - it was linked to a pre-existing bug report from 2018, as well as a fresh bug report submitted today. I prefixed it with PSA so that intelligent people would understand it was an announcement to be aware of, a behaviour that might be tripping people up - just like the plethora of threads we have on this forum of "Where's this water coming from?!" or "Where'd my gas go!?".

Why you've quoted those two topics is beyond me, but i'm fairly certain you're a classic spommer.

You should know what that means since you've been around here for a while. Nice contribution ore scrubber.

 

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On 7/27/2020 at 12:07 AM, ghkbrew said:

Have you benchmarked the output? I bet you could improve the production by increasing conduction with the producing tiles. Right now it's all going through one metal tile - metal tile contact. You could extend the temp shifts one tile close to the middle. And maybe add horizontal conveyor bridges behind the producing tiles.

9122.6KJ over a Cycle, or 15.2KW... and still rising. Minus the 1.7KW from the Top Turbines, so 13.5KW power provided by one aquatuner.

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On 7/24/2020 at 2:36 PM, TheMule said:

...

A suspicious build would be this one:

https://youtu.be/O-YYEVvHriw

expecially for the iron volcano. That build failed me when I modified it as per @Tonyroid's suggestion back in the days. 3 STs turned out to be barely enough. Actually 1ST actively cooled struggles keeping the temp below 200C even with a lot of steam. My to go build for strong iron volcanos now is 2STs, actively cooled.

This is a nice example of a totally unintended use of a bug.

I'd thought Francis' thing on metal volcanoes seemed too good to be true! It just didn't seem right that he could beat Brothgar's insane designs with self-cooling steam turbines with copper pipes not even ran thru metal tiles (something he has started doing more recently, but not in those old tutorials of course).
I really am glad to here that a bugfix has brought some sanity and there's actual reason to have proper cooling.

As to all the discussion on whether to even have threads like these, the way I see it, either the devs are fine with this stuff, and people get new cool toys to play with, or the devs aren't so fine with this stuff, and will fix it and thus bring a little bit more sanity/predictability to common base builds by fixing it.

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7 hours ago, Nebbie said:

I'd thought Francis' thing on metal volcanoes seemed too good to be true! It just didn't seem right that he could beat Brothgar's insane designs with self-cooling steam turbines with copper pipes not even ran thru metal tiles (something he has started doing more recently, but not in those old tutorials of course).
I really am glad to here that a bugfix has brought some sanity and there's actual reason to have proper cooling.

As to all the discussion on whether to even have threads like these, the way I see it, either the devs are fine with this stuff, and people get new cool toys to play with, or the devs aren't so fine with this stuff, and will fix it and thus bring a little bit more sanity/predictability to common base builds by fixing it.

There's nothing wrong with selfcooling turbines. It's just that the heat deletion bug reduced the power generated by iron volcanoes, making 2 turbines builds feasable, while now you need 3.

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For those that are still paying attention at the bottom of page 2 of this post:

I present the Freezer Furnace Mini.1698025596_FreezerFurnaceMini.thumb.png.f4c9005a6c2e9696ecfda007275e10cb.png

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557022346_FreezerFurnaceMini-Power.thumb.png.7d63c8492d6d95b5e255467556c745b5.png71401182_FreezerFurnaceMini-Pipes.thumb.png.320c737de2111b8266b90adb5901b75c.png

 

@mathmanican, I've improved on your single tile cooler.

727446961_FreezerFurnaceMini-Detail.thumb.png.7fd412a17d654c25b1fb4c46122216bd.png

The trick is to have a tiny amount of molten aluminum stacked on a tiny amount of molten lead.  When the aluminum debris melts it will be added to the existing molten aluminum above it.  If there's no aluminum above it, it will displace the lead upwards then take a few ticks for the two liquids to switch places (because lead's heavier). If there's too little lead (like in this build) the small amount of lead will be deleted rather than swap places.

The reason the I'm keeping the amount of lead so low is because I don't actually want it to exchange any heat.  With 15g of lead below it, the molten aluminum will stay 933.5K the entire time it's sending 100kg packets left to be re-frozen.

The left mesh tile is a standard solid bypass cooler.  Freezing 100kg molten aluminum per tick and immediately forcing it back to the melting chamber.

Freezer Furnace 004.sav

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2 minutes ago, ghkbrew said:

improved on your single tile cooler.

Awesome work. Haven't had time to properly play for over a week. My first plan was to perfect the one tile stuff, but you nailed it already.  Nice job.

5 minutes ago, ghkbrew said:

Freezer Furnace Mini.

Can't wait for the Regular or oversized version.

:yaypigs:

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Nevermind, this one is definitely the Mini version

1763683699_FreezerFurnaceMiniv2.thumb.png.74a876f8eb5fdef63a00fa8c38c00b57.png

Note to self, convection > conduction.  A solid 8.5MW from running 1 aqua tuner full time, +/- active cooling.  The steam settles out at about 207C, so the turbines are wasting just a little power.  But 10 is a sweet spot. Adding more turbines definitely gets diminishing returns.  I tried a second row of 10 above the first, it dropped the steam temperature enough that I only got about 15% more power (for 2x the turbines).

Freezer Furnace 006.sav

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30 minutes ago, ghkbrew said:

Nevermind, this one is definitely the Mini version

 

Spoiler

1763683699_FreezerFurnaceMiniv2.thumb.png.74a876f8eb5fdef63a00fa8c38c00b57.png

 

Note to self, convection > conduction.  A solid 8.5MW from running 1 aqua tuner full time, +/- active cooling.  The steam settles out at about 207C, so the turbines are wasting just a little power.  But 10 is a sweet spot. Adding more turbines definitely gets diminishing returns.  I tried a second row of 10 above the first, it dropped the steam temperature enough that I only got about 15% more power (for 2x the turbines).

Freezer Furnace 006.sav 378.78 kB · 0 downloads

Oooh, that is looking like something to actually build in survival; I wonder how long before we start seeing it pop up in bases in ONI Let's Play series.

Ah yes, conduction is indeed pretty terrible. It's always better to physically transpose heat so that distance is nearly effectively directly adjacent; conveyor rail loops holding something with a high SHC and thermal conductivity* are the best single thing you can add on top, in case you want even more heat transfer.
It doesn't help either that ONI has unrealistically low thermal conductivities for many higher-end materials; realistic copper and diamond make thermium look like a joke.

*Dirt maybe? SHC matters more to my understanding (the limiting factor is usually how much heat the medium holds), so if it doesn't get too hot and turn to sand, it should probably beat diamond, and be a lot more practical if wanting to build this in survival.

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