Infinite Heat by Freezing

[Nebbie]

On 8/6/2020 at 10:10 PM, Neutronium said:

@mathmanican  Why not try the condensation process XD

Spoiler

The design here is obvious in retrospect, but it's one of those things where you'd think there'd be some gotcha. So, what is the AT duty cycle like, one tenth? Can it support more than 2 turbines?

I'm also curious about the phosphorus version (pre-space materials). Could it even keep one turbine at full?

[Neutronium]

23 hours ago, Nebbie said:

The design here is obvious in retrospect, but it's one of those things where you'd think there'd be some gotcha. So, what is the AT duty cycle like, one tenth? Can it support more than 2 turbines?

I'm also curious about the phosphorus version (pre-space materials). Could it even keep one turbine at full?

It's more like a feasibility study, i just wanna prove the same bug happens in the condensation process. I'm not sure how many turbines it can support. You can amplify this effect as you want.

I tried some other materials, but only super coolant can let the power generation cover the electricity used.

[mathmanican]

21 minutes ago, Neutronium said:

only super coolant

Which returns us to post space construction for real exploitation (so probably not game breaking). Thanks for checking them all.

[redxaxder]

The phosphorus that condenses off the steam turbine is cold enough to condense other phosphorous. Maybe there's a way to chain these together to gain more energy.

[StoneToad]

So I've got a power positive pre-space, no aluminium build mostly working, not optimized much at all though I did try to keep in mind the tricks from the steam turbine power loss thread.

• When I changed to pwater the single aquatuner isn't quite able to keep up with all the cooling. (should be enough power to run the 2nd one though)
• The really tall condensation tower is I think overkill.  Ended up putting in over 5t of phosphorous.  The aim is to stabilize the pressure in the condensing tile, atm it's ~5kg when it's going best

 

Oh and I didn't make the giant contraption off the bottom right of the screenshot in the save

FreezerFurnacePhos.sav

[Nebbie]

41 minutes ago, StoneToad said:

So I've got a power positive pre-space, no aluminium build mostly working, not optimized much at all though I did try to keep in mind the tricks from the steam turbine power loss thread.

• When I changed to pwater the single aquatuner isn't quite able to keep up with all the cooling. (should be enough power to run the 2nd one though)
• The really tall condensation tower is I think overkill.  Ended up putting in over 5t of phosphorous.  The aim is to stabilize the pressure in the condensing tile, atm it's ~5kg when it's going best

 

Oh and I didn't make the giant contraption off the bottom right of the screenshot in the save

Spoiler

FreezerFurnacePhos.sav 439.67 kB · 0 downloads

A bit bulky, but exciting nonetheless. Wouldn't it be better to have the liquid vent down bottom to reduce heat loss from the very bug this is exploiting?

[StoneToad]

I just placed it up on top just for convenience based on this comment that there seemed to be no impact from vent height above the boiling plate.

'

[Nebbie]

1 hour ago, StoneToad said:

I just placed it up on top just for convenience based on this comment that there seemed to be no impact from vent height above the boiling plate.

'

I don't mean down for height, but so that the heat exchange as the liquid flashes to gas is with 3 insulated tiles and 1 tile of steam, rather than 2 and 2, so that only 1 tile of steam loses heat.

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, Nebbie said:

I don't mean down for height, but so that the heat exchange as the liquid flashes to gas

The liquid flashed to gas at the bottom of the fall.  The height of the vent is irrelevant, provided there is no mesh tile under it, as the liquid enters the world dripping (not beading) until it hits the bottom. 

[StoneToad]

Actually turns out that you can have the vent too high off the bottom but I guess a 7 tile drop was a bit ridiculous!

Anyway, here's the optimised version! Does about a net of a little over 715kJ per cycle most of the time based on the reports and using ultra speed.  The right aquatuner I'm running gold amalgam and it's been ok so far.  This build does use a decent amount of steel, but might as well try to save where possible.  interestingly, changing to copper tiles and tempshift plates performed better.  Of course aluminium would be even better but the idea for this was pre-space terra mats only.  Uses about 400kg of phosphorous this time, so very manageable.

 

FreezerFurnacePhos02.sav

[Nebbie]

On 8/10/2020 at 6:08 PM, StoneToad said:

...

...  interestingly, changing to copper tiles and tempshift plates performed better. Of course aluminium would be even better but the idea for this was pre-space terra mats only. ...

...

Huh? It sounds like you're mistakenly thinking copper has a higher TC than gold (which is true IRL, but not in ONI). Aluminum's high TC probably is better, but this bit of information doesn't suggest such, and instead suggests that possibly, SHC is desirable to be higher. It doesn't make sense for things like the tempshift plates, so maybe this is an effect of what happens at the point of compensation (what happens if you leave only those copper, the rest gold?) If the tempshift plates do work better as a higher SHC material, then what about iron (nearly the same TC but significantly more SHC)?

It certainly does seem to work better with aluminum from a bit of testing, and with much more even turbine loads.

[StoneToad]

Ah no, I know that gold and copper have the same TC in oni.  In general I consider gold a "cheaper" material then copper in some early gameness sense. The improvement was because the gold was having problems with massive temperature drops causing intermittent steam production.  Mind you I worked on that bit first when the heat output itself from freezer furnace was a bit less even as I think about it now.

Are you saying the SHC of the tempshift plate has no effect?  That seems to be at odds with what I thought I'd observed in an experiment with an escher stairs petrol boiler heat exchanger (crude goes up escher waterfall "stairs", petrol flows down over the top, trying to (ab)use the 625x liquid-liquid transfer bonus) and changing from gold to copper tempshift plates gave me slight improvement in degrees per step.  Iron was worse there though it's an interesting idea to see if it helps even out the steam side.  I didn't go back and recheck that after finishing the furnace side.

[Nebbie]

6 hours ago, StoneToad said:

... The improvement was because the gold was having problems with massive temperature drops causing intermittent steam production.  ...

Are you saying the SHC of the tempshift plate has no effect?  That seems to be at odds with what I thought I'd observed in an experiment with an escher stairs petrol boiler heat exchanger (crude goes up escher waterfall "stairs", petrol flows down over the top, trying to (ab)use the 625x liquid-liquid transfer bonus) and changing from gold to copper tempshift plates gave me slight improvement in degrees per step.  Iron was worse there though it's an interesting idea to see if it helps even out the steam side.  I didn't go back and recheck that after finishing the furnace side.

Ah, so steam turbine mechanics are messing with it, necessitating some thermal inertia? That would explain a lot, normally you want lower SHC in things, especially tempshift plates, to reduce thermal inertia. As for iron, I wouldn't bother testing it, cause of diamond (I guess I'm too used to forest starts where aluminum is just nuts and diamond is reserved for high temperatures or cheaper builds).

[StoneToad]

4 hours ago, Nebbie said:

Ah, so steam turbine mechanics are messing with it, necessitating some thermal inertia? That would explain a lot, normally you want lower SHC in things, especially tempshift plates, to reduce thermal inertia. As for iron, I wouldn't bother testing it, cause of diamond (I guess I'm too used to forest starts where aluminum is just nuts and diamond is reserved for high temperatures or cheaper builds).

Lol @ diamonds being "cheaper" option. then again, I've used up almost all my dug diamond on the heat sync for my magma volcano so I've gotten in the habit of skimping on it   Well that build is working atm still, so it will be a while before I can recover them.  I don't think I really needed to plaster the *entire* back wall in them in retrospect....  And my next survival base (probably after dlc, lol) I will roll an asteroid with aluminium!

Odd thing re SHC is I was just working on a different build where I had to change to copper for thermal stability as well.  I guess steam is just a pain to heat up, makes sense due to water's high SHC.  This maybe suggests that the plates serving the vent area and the bottom few metal tiles might be worth changing to diamond.

Also totally forgot to test if that diamond tile in the corner actually gave any free power from that other bug or if it got fixed yet.  Might as well go for *all* the 'features' right?