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3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I like Wurt the way she is.. she’s a perfect character for consoles, especially people who only ever play the game with 2-3 other people.. (a Max of 6 is just chaos waiting to happen.) 
 

The ONLY thing I dislike about Wurt is I personally feel she’s way too easy to play, She has all these good upsides and her only downsides are “Is a Vegetarian, Pigs Hate Her.”

... thats it? 
A Wurt with a Merm Army is an extremely powerful thing.. and it doesn’t take much of nothing to set up your own Merm Army, Without building that dumb Tapestry (Which I choose to completely Ignore) ALL your Merms are Always Hostile towards anything entering their swamp and when you have a Swamp Kingdom with no elected king... Woe Will be to any fool who dares step foot in your Swamp without a Clever Disguise.

Why u are like this?

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1 minute ago, MewUra said:

Why u are like this?

Why do you ask questions and don’t clarify any further so people know how to respond?

A big enough Merm Army will kill easily Hound Waves, Deerclops, Bearger, Spider Queens, Moose Goose, I mean... A Wurt WITHOUT A Merm Army is a boring character.

And to top that off you can keep base grievers at Bay while giving the Clever Disguises to the people you trust with letting into your Kingdom.

Its something Wurt has full control over deciding who CAN and Who CAN NOT safely enter her Swamp Kingdom.

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5 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

I will never stopped being baffled when you say that

Runs faster on swamp turf, Sees Tentacles ahead of running into them, Weapons never slip out of her hands when Wet, can build her own Kingdom, can expand the size of her Kingdom, Can carry a Pet fish + wear a Garland to completely ignore Sanity Drain.
Can give her Merms Carrot, Seed or their own Pet fish to have them Follow her, Can Equip her Merms in Head Armor, And can hit a Tree or Rock ONCE with her Axe/Pickaxe and have her Merms finish the job of mining those resources FOR Her, saving Wurt Tool Durability.

And her only real downside is can’t eat meat.

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10 hours ago, HeilerderWelten said:

Greetings fellow merms

We are all in love with our little florp girl...except if you are a pig!

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(the Artist is called LadyAmalthea 일각수 게이머)

But there are a few things that arn't optimal yet.

Perks

Wetness

- she has a strong grip, tools don't become slippery and won't fall to the ground [implemented]

- she should be immune to sanity loss because of wet items in her inventory, she is a merm afterall [not implemented yet]

- she shouldn't freeze because of wetness, except in winter and cold spring nights, merms live in the swamp and thrive in that wet biom without a problem [not implemented yet]

Fish

- Wurt uses fish to create items, structures and to trade with the King of the Merms, the problem is the fish must be alive for all of those actions and you can't stack living fish, Wurt should be able to stack living freshwater fish, eel and freshwater fishes of the same kind to a number of 10 [not implemented yet]

- when Wurt has 100% wetness, living fish of any kind doesn't perish at all (but other food items, animals like rabbits, bees and items like the Ham Bat will rot faster) [not implemented yet]

- the King of the Merms trades 3 gold for 1 eel, this makes gold renewable for Wurt, but working with other survivors that can trade with the King of the Pigs will yield you 5 gold, so its better to trade your eels with your none merm friends [not implemented yet]

Merms

- the Craftmerms are good boys [implemented]

- the Loyal Merm Guard should attack Hounds, Giants, MacTusk, Vargs, etc on sight [not implemented yet]

- the Fishermerm should be added [not implemented yet]

Structures

- Craftsmerm House [implemented]

- Merm Flort-ification [implemented]

- Royal Tapestry [implemented]

- Fischermerm's Hut should be added, it is build with: 4 Boards, 4 Kelp Fronds, 4 Barnacles [not implemented yet]

- it spawns a Fishermerm that is absolutly passive...I mean he is a big coward, he fears frogs, mosquitos, etc. and only fishes if nothing that bothers him is around.

- he can fish the whole day, even at night, but can't catch more than 3 fish a day at best, the fish around him will spoil fast so be quick picking it up or collect the rot for marsh turf and farms

- he can catch eel aswell when his house is placed in range of cave ponds and if you have a King of the Merms in the caves you can get a lot of gold this way

- you can also place the Fishermerm's Hut near a shoal or place it on your boat and than ride the boat from shoal to shoal and let the Fishermerm catch coastal fish like Spittlefish, Mudfish, Dandy Lionfish, etc. for big fish meat

- Fishermerms try also to "catch" Rockjaws (sharks) and fail miserably *laugh*

The King of the Merms

- Wurt players let the King starve constantly and just create a new one after 4 days, so the big guy needs some tweeks

- Raise his stomach from 200 up to 500 hunger

- he will starve in 10 days (so he consumes 50 points of hunger value a day) but his perks get weaker over time, so that you want to feed him

- if he has between 250-500 hunger he gives you all his benefits (after 5 days without feeding him)

- if he has between 200-250 hunger, your boosted stats (health/hunger/sanity) get lowered from 250/250/200 to 200/220/170 (after 6 days)

- if he has between 150-200 hunger, your stat boosts vanish completly and you only have your base stats again 150/200/150 (after 7 days)

- if he has between 100-150 hunger, the Merm stats get lowered from 560 health/40 damage to 500 health/30 damage (after 8 days)

- if he has between 50-100 hunger, the Loyal Merm Guards stats get lowered from 660 health/60 damage to 200 health /20 damage (after 9 days)

- if he has under 50 hunger, he starts to loose health (and dies at 0 hunger) and he wont trade fish with you anymore (he has other problems right now) (after 10 days)

- if you attack the King of the Merms and kill him you have to wait 2 days until a new King can be crowned

- so you might want to feed that big boy

 

Thank you Klei for all your amazing work over the years.

I played DS and DST on PC and PS4 for more than 1500 hours and got my girlfriend into DST aswell, she loves all those Wendy and Wormwood skins *laugh*

Thanks for the read and maybe my fellow community members have some cool ideas aswell.

 

 

 

Honestly I really like the ideas presented here but mostly the 100 percent wetness perk it would give water balloons another use while further giving wurt more bonuses for swamp and the stacking fish but I don't really agree with the not freezing thing there are plenty of solutions to freezing a near perm one available specifically to wurt so I feel dealing cold is a good trade off.

I will say i doubt we'll go back to stackable fish but I atleast wish could use the ocean fish in the recipes.

The big things that feel leads to wurt's unpopularity tho is her teamplay selling point is mobs who are naturally hostile to other players while yes you could make a king this is only a solution so long as he's fed it further complicates this  by the fact that the only way for a non wurt to feed him is the mask which can't be renewed without wurt making anything she crafts a team hazard when she goes on long trips. This is compounded by the fact most pub players don't care much about followers which is unavoidable.

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My main problem with Wurt is how long it takes for her to be useful. A majority of her perks, while making her a better character, are reliant on the swamp and thus provide no interaction with the rest of the game and often have other alternatives that all characters can take advantage of. For example, her ability to run faster on marsh turf makes sense in context that she has lived in the swamp her whole life, but it is useless if you are playing with other people and/or want to swap to another character, and is often usually replaced with road turf because then at least everyone can have a equal chance to use it. However, what really rustles my jimmy's is that she entirely reliant on her merm companions for her power. When looking at the two other "faction" characters, Webber and Wilba, we can see how they have more perks then just being able to interact with their respective species care free. Webber has a lot of utility in the ruins and atrium due to their ability to freely eat monster meat, the main meat source in the ruins via Depthworms, and the ability to just run through the labyrinths without being slowed or threatened. Their is also the point that the items that Webber gathers can be used for some easy and frequent solutions to things like clothing durability and spoiling health. Wilba has her Werepig form which, besides making Woodie almost entirely out shined, has a ton of utility of providing of exploring and fighting (and to a less extent harvesting) which makes her pigs secondary but adds a "unique" method of play besides her linage. Now if we go back to Wurt, we can see just how little utility see has outside of her tribe. Her vegetarian hunger boost may make so dishes a bit better but beyond that, there isn't much. Her lineage doesn't provide any benefit out of the swamp, and while her merms due haves lot utility in terms of how much they can help with tasks, that can be said about any follower. Yes, in a straight battle, merms due win out in the most versatility, but that is also devalued by the fact that by simply adding more numbers, you can achieve the same result that another can do. If she were ever reworked, I would like for her to actually stray away a bit from her ancestory so that she isn't, metaphorically, attached to the hip of them and actually isn't just another Wilson Clone when not surrounded by merms.

I would also like to add that companion reliant characters aren't really that good in the first place. Webber scrapes by with his extra utility in other places and items he can farm, but his actual main perks of befriending spiders is very bad and doesn't really help at all in fighting, where most companion based characters are focused on, getting your companions to do the work for you. Wurt's power to me is like a bolder. Getting that bolder up the hill is the most difficult part, but after you get that bolder over is then were the power becomes overly powerful because the numbers just get too much for most opponents to properly handle and then becomes "no aoe=dead, aoe=can barely put a dent into". I do agree that Wurt needs a rework, but it is really hard to balance something that is powerful enough to last more then 5 seconds on it own but doesn't just decimate anything one the posse is built up.

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

her only downsides are “Is a Vegetarian, Pigs Hate Her.”

I mean yeah, hating pigs nothing new. But the vegetarian actually does make the player reconsider what food choices they make. No longer can you just consume Pierogies and Surf n' Turf for healing but instead focus of unconventional ones like Butter Muffins and Blue Caps. It is nothing revolutionary, but it does make people take a serious consideration into if they want to play the character or not since it could affect a entire play style.

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

... thats it?

I mean yeah, any characters downside can be trivalized if you take the proper steps to counter act it. Willows is to wear winter clothing, Maxwell/Walters is to "git gud" at kiting, Wormwood just needs a honey/spider farm and he is rarin to go, Wolfgang can be fed to the point where the overall sanity loss is less then a normal characters, Woodies can be negated by basing in the caves, etc etc. The point of downsides is to have a serious deviation in playstyle that requires the players attention to properly counteract, that is what downsides have been and will continue to be. Even if they are getting less severe, they still do require the players to take careful consideration how they take actions instead of just having the same character copy and pasted over and over. Just because it doesn't challenge You doesn't mean it can't be challenging to others.

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Woe Will be to any fool who dares step foot in your Swamp without a Clever Disguise

I mean except other Wurts, which might be a worse Willow since all your defences for your base will be entirely negated by your character choice. Funny how what you deem your protector could to be your hubris.

 

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The thing is webber's perks are the same as wurts but lesser aside from the fact his minions actually have good drops yes he can eat monster meat in the ruins but wurt can eat kelp at sea.

As for wilba she's more so a comparison to woodie than to wurt she doesn't have a follower system exclusive to her and she doesn't use pigs any better as far as I know aside from getting tributes her character mostly begins and ends with her were form

I do agree follower characters are kinda in a bad spot due to their limited utility 

Merms are the fastest resource gatherers but maxwell can gather them earlier on than her with no real labor costs.

Merm guards are great fighters but when It comes to hordes abi will always be better than the army of merms, when it comes to bosses Winona will always have the leg up due to catapults generally being out of attack range.

When it comes to spider farming Abigail will have the leg up again due to mobbing with the only real addition webber can muster is speeding up relocation with silk as again abi has no cost, has clearly visible hp and is commandable at a click.

 

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i had thought of something that could put a damper on the whole "wishy-washy throw a new king on the mat whenever they die" thing.

namely something to show the culture of merms. during the cooldown between kings, the entire merm kingdom goes through a "mourning process." during this mourning process, random merms will be unable to be recruited, as they'd be to busy being sad to go and chop your small forest you'd set up.

as another part that would make king deaths have a lasting impact, wurt herself would become mournful. this could manifest itself in numerous ways. spitballing here, it could cause

  • Loss of maximum stats for a period of time
  • Weakened attack ability (i.e. lower damage)
  • Massive sanity loss, equivalent to multiple ghosts.

This would add some depth to the merms and be a downside that can persist far into the end game, as less damage and lower max stats are almost always going to be a problem that you'd have to contend with if you keep up the "going through kings like toilet paper in a stadium bathroom".

a moment for flompius the 53rd, the conqueror of that one pig house in that random forest. truly, he will be missed.

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3 minutes ago, Wumpus the 19th said:

i had thought of something that could put a damper on the whole "wishy-washy throw a new king on the mat whenever they die" thing.

namely something to show the culture of merms. during the cooldown between kings, the entire merm kingdom goes through a "mourning process." during this mourning process, random merms will be unable to be recruited, as they'd be to busy being sad to go and chop your small forest you'd set up.

as another part that would make king deaths have a lasting impact, wurt herself would become mournful. this could manifest itself in numerous ways. spitballing here, it could cause

  • Loss of maximum stats for a period of time
  • Weakened attack ability (i.e. lower damage)
  • Massive sanity loss, equivalent to multiple ghosts.

This would add some depth to the merms and be a downside that can persist far into the end game, as less damage and lower max stats are almost always going to be a problem that you'd have to contend with if you keep up the "going through kings like toilet paper in a stadium bathroom".

a moment for flompius the 53rd, the conqueror of that one pig house in that random forest. truly, he will be missed.

This would push people further away from ever wanting to build a king then.

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2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This would push people further away from ever wanting to build a king then.

fair enough. mostly just was trying to spitball ideas that would be downsides to wurt considering some people don't like her minimal downsides when closing in onto the endgame.

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1 minute ago, Wumpus the 19th said:

fair enough. mostly just was trying to spitball ideas that would be downsides to wurt considering some people don't like her minimal downsides when closing in onto the endgame.

If she had a wetness mechanic, she could suffer from being dry (sanity/movement speed loss). This would make her suffer in Summer.

Also, everytime i checked on a merm they are wet, so should be Wurt. Honestly sometimes she seems so different from merms it kind of confuses me

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1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

I really don't get why people say she needs more downsides honestly her downside is much higher on the list of downsides than even most of the reworked characters like Woodie, Willow, Winona, and Wendy

i don't fully know as i only recently unlocked her and haven't made it past autumn, namely due to my playing habits and trying uncompromising mode. what i do know is that some people are complaining and i'm just trying to fill a need. you have to admit, the vegan thing is a bit easy to pave over once you get past the first winter and pig king not giving the easiest source of gold is somewhat negatable since by the time you'd need more gold that didn't already spawn in is likely to be later in the game, when you can possibly change character.

downsides can make the characters feel more unique and less mary sue-esque. but this isn't the thread for it.

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I'm not going to say that isn't something easy to get past but what I am saying is if wurt's downside is too minimal there are bunch of character who should have that addressed first.

Willow's downside is only a issue or you haven't learned about seasonal clothing which more than likely means you'll die regardless of being willow.

Wendy's downside is not hitting as hard but fighting alongside abi negates this and exceeds it as she also can fight without you.

Woodie's downside is he spawns more tree guards but you can 1. Use beaver to harvest wood 2. Run to something that pull aggro or kill it. Or 3. Plant tree seeds to appease it.

Winona's downside is depleting your hunger if you don't plan out your crafting sessions.

Wurt's downside is being excluded from from the most available food type year round with the majority of the easiest and most filling crock dishes and being excluded from the pig king.

I know Wormwood, Warly, and Walter have harsher penalties and there are non reworked characters with lesser ones but atleast looking at those ones it should be clear that wurt's downside isn't too light in comparsion.

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15 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I really don't get why people say she needs more downsides honestly her downside is much higher on the list of downsides than even most of the reworked characters like Woodie, Willow, Winona, and Wendy

Exactly she has a greater downside than Wigfrid.

 

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1 hour ago, HeilerderWelten said:

Exactly she has a greater downside than Wigfrid.

 

Wurt can eat straight ICE... it may not be the most filling food to feed her but just like seeds that birds drop it will stop starvation in a pinch.. If your ONLY ever used to making Meatballs or Perogi and eating those because #Meta then yes I Suppose you DEFIANTLY are going to struggle while playing as Wurt.

However- If your used to a Nomadic playstyle of just eating food directly from it’s source WHEN you actually need it, Then there are a multitude of ways to stay alive as Wurt, Berry Bushes, Juicy Berry Bushes, Carrots, Seeds, Mushrooms, Honey & ICE, And if you rely heavily upon eating food to Heal You wouldn’t last a day in an Uncompromising Mode.

And do keep in mind that I’m not talking about a MOD... I’m talking about a (currently non-existent) game mode created by Klei developers where your only methods of healing are directly from that Crafting tab for Medical Items.

I suppose in the end though that if a character doesn’t fit into your playstyle your going to completely suck as them no matter how good they actually are, I SUCK as Warly... by far my least favorite character in the entire game, his cooking gimmick is boring, and he does nothing outside of cooking.. but that’s just an example of how a character perceived as OP by this Community.. can in fact suck to a particular individual.

The same case applies to Wurt, I see her as an Overpowered god With all these good perks who can live off straight Ice if it’s her last resort, but the trade off is she can build her very own kingdom of hundreds of Merms to do all the work for her.

You never have to worry about Sanity because your already in a Swamp where Spider Nests should be, you never need to worry about healing because you have mosquito and spider glands in your swamp, you have infinite amounts of silk and pet fish to build top hats and recruit Merms by giving them their own pet fish.

Pet fish can be acquired by fishing in those small ponds in your swamp or by letting your Merms die in glorious battle to spiders and tentacles then picking the one they ALWAYS drop upon death up.

Coincidentally.. you also have an infinite supply of Monster Meat and Frog Legs to feed to your Non-Wurt friends. Or to let Rot, Which will be used to fertilize your plant crops while playing as Wurt.

 

The TL:DR- Depending on how you play this open world Sandbox game, and what you prefer doing... will determine rather or not a character is good or Awful, if you like to fight bosses I’m sure Wurt isn’t the best choice, if you like to simply live off the land exploring the surface and caves then Wurt is simply the Opposite of Wigfrid, Remember that you can eat anything that doesn’t contain meat and your good to go.

To top that off, Wurts tools won’t slip out of her hand when wet which makes combat in spring as her without the Eyebrella a #Meta choice. 

AND if you have a Top Hat + Pet Fish you’ll never lose sanity even while spending your life down in creepy dark caves.

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16 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Woodie's downside is he spawns more tree guards but you can 1. Use beaver to harvest wood 2. Run to something that pull aggro or kill it. Or 3. Plant tree seeds to appease it.

Woodie also has other cons more than that, just saying that he has one con is an understatement which generally causes confusion about the character and turns Woodie into a death trap to many players.
 

Spoiler
  1. Needs to be mindful of the date at all times, and plan accordingly, otherwise you get randomly transformed during full moons (which can be mid fight or in other dangerous situation) and leaves you starving. 
  2. If you don't time your transformations you waste a ton of food, even more than Wolfgang. Transformations can be both cheap, or super expensive, depending on your planning and timings.
  3. He gains less summer insulation from summer insulation clothing (His beard negates some of the summer insulation). He can't go below 0 insulation though, so having no insulation has no impact, but having poor insulation does as you will see no benefit unless you go over a certain threshold. He will start overheating sooner than any other average character with an eyebrella.
  4. Werebeaver can be a death sentence during hound waves, or if you go insane, being the weakest form to fight or escape.
  5. All beast forms have no way to heal when already very wounded, paired with their high sanity drain it's not uncommon to die of starvation damage before you manage to heal as Woodie, or get one shot by a terrobeak as soon as you become human. Freezing or overheating in beast form has a very delayed solution (waiting for it to end not doing anything) which also usually ends up in death.


All of these have workarounds, sure, but it's not like you can just outright ignore them like Wickerbottom does. I think Woodie and Willow have okay cons for people who does not want to go as deep as Warly or Wormwood in permanent unavoidable cons.
I see many players switching to Woodie thinking its going to be an "unlimited axe wilson" ride, only to find them dying of starvation or shadows constantly.

Back on main topic, Wurt does not need stronger penalties, I think they are all there, she needs more consistent upsides (not necesarily buffs, just more consistent) OP @HeilerderWelten pointed some very good changes except the no-freezing when wet which, I disagree with. The others are pretty well thought.

I think the changes made in this mod by @Electroely scratch most of the main itches most of us have about Wurt: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2088617774 I'd recommend everyone to at least read the changes described there.
I believe just adding these changes in a patch would be a good starting point for a Wurt rework.


PS: Please, yes to fishermerms
 

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16 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I think the changes made in this mod by @Electroely scratch most of the main itches most of us have about Wurt: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2088617774 I'd recommend everyone to at least read the changes described there.
I believe just adding these changes in a patch would be a good starting point for a Wurt rework.


 

I like those changes but i see them more of QoL arrangements. Im all in with a new wetness mechanic added: beneficial when at certain levels but not good at both extremes (less than 20, more than 80)

Not so in love with fishermerms, i would rather fish myself

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I still feel like Wurt should get fish stacking back making merm huts and interacting with the king was alot more fun before fish had the weight system and killed a fair amount of good will towards the character.

Before that update Wurt didn't have to go out of her way to gather fish as she would gain them from followers deaths and from mass fishing both of which have been killed by the fact now each fish takes up a full slot which generally just ends up eliminating any reason for Wurt to ever base away from the swamp and worse yet makes the kings tributes feel exceeding underwhelming compared to the effort required as before you would get a large amount of seeds, rot, and spots which I used to consider a big upside.

Figured I'd voice my final thoughts on this before this thread goes dead.

Edit:it feels like the anti social playstyle of wurt was also born from that change.

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4 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I still feel like Wurt should get fish stacking back making merm huts and interacting with the king was alot more fun before fish had the weight system and killed a fair amount of good will towards the character.

Before that update Wurt didn't have to go out of her way to gather fish as she would gain them from followers deaths and from mass fishing both of which have been killed by the fact now each fish takes up a full slot which generally just ends up eliminating any reason for Wurt to ever base away from the swamp and worse yet makes the kings tributes feel exceeding underwhelming compared to the effort required as before you would get a large amount of seeds, rot, and spots which I used to consider a big upside.

Figured I'd voice my final thoughts on this before this thread goes dead.

Edit:it feels like the anti social playstyle of wurt was also born from that change.

Yes that makes her way less tedious.

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