Klei shouldn't nerf

[DJO7000]

Nerfing any character is completely uneeded this isn't a competitive game, no character is so powerful that they cause you to be at a severe disadvantage if you play a less powerful character

Nerfing Wolfgang, Wickerbottom, or WX78 will simply make the game less fun for a lot of players, if any changes for these characters occurred they should make the characters have more enjoyable abilities rather than straight up redmoving what makes them fun

Klei's focus when making refreshes is mainly the make the game more fun with interesting new abilities and to make weaker character be able to do better in fun ways

This is why I don't think Klei will nerf any character

[ArubaroBeefalo]

But reworking these characters will make the game fun for others because i cant play wx without being bored when i actually love the character (i have a lot of skins with him) 

Isnt a competitive game but a survival, if you are not surviving but living then there is no fun

I think klei will found the key to rework these characters without killing their core.

 

Also i think is healthy to have strong characters, like wigfrid or wendy, but not totally imb4, like wx or wolfg, and "weaker" characters, like wormwood, maxwell or wes

[Duck986]

21 minutes ago, DJO7000 said:

Nerfing any character is completely uneeded this isn't a competitive game, no character is so powerful that they cause you to be at a severe disadvantage if you play a less powerful character

Nerfing Wolfgang, Wickerbottom, or WX78 will simply make the game less fun for a lot of players, if any changes for these characters occurred they should make the characters have more enjoyable abilities rather than straight up redmoving what makes them fun

You're right, this isn't a competitive game, but a) it's a multiplayer, where everything should be fair and balanced (even disease, which is hated by everyone lol) and b) it is not very interesting to run with 400 hp and tank everything you see without an armor with just some jellybeans in your pocket, or to grow over9000 dragonfruits during the first autumn.

[DJO7000]

17 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

But reworking these characters will make the game fun for others because i cant play wx without being bored when i actually love the character (i have a lot of skins with him) 

I agree, like is said any changes to them should make them more fun not just nerfing them

9 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

You're right, this isn't a competitive game, but a) it's a multiplayer, where everything should be fair and balanced (even disease, which is hated by everyone lol) and b) it is not very interesting to run with 400 hp and tank everything you see without an armor with just some jellybeans in your pocket, or to grow over9000 dragonfruits during the first autumn.

No character is completely unbalanced and EVERY character can use jellybeans amazing healing and what's with that dragon fruit comment? Wormwood isn't OP and Wicker can't do that

Also I'm not saying these characters shouldn't be changed I'm saying they shouldn't be nerfed, I would LOVE if they got refreshes every refresh so far has made their character so much more fun!

[Brubs]

Character balancing is key so that you can play the character you like without the feeling you are useless or should play someone else.

Also... people sometimes forget pvp mode  exists ...where balancing is again, extremely important

[Duck986]

6 minutes ago, DJO7000 said:

what's with that dragon fruit comment?

Acquire dragon fruit > turn it into seeds > plant them > use Applied Horticulture book > repeat. Voila, many dragonfruits in just a few minutes.

 

7 minutes ago, DJO7000 said:

I'm saying they shouldn't be nerfed

Imo Wolfgang should, because he have a massive damage buff if he is full and such a minor and only negative side - only 1.1x sanity lost multiplier.

We have already discussed it here, and at present time i'm totally agree with Toros.

 

14 minutes ago, DJO7000 said:

and EVERY character can use jellybeans amazing healing

I meant, sometimes it's a bit harder to make 10 pierogies then use 2-3 jellybeans (at least for me).

[DJO7000]

2 minutes ago, Brubs said:

Character balancing is key so that you can play the character you like without the feeling you are useless or should play someone else.

Also... people sometimes forgets pvp mode  exists ...where balancing is again, extremely important

I agree but they should achieve this through refreshing the less powerful characters

And PVP mode is irrelevant since none of the best characters are particularly good in PVP Wigfrid Wortox Webber and the panflute shouldn't be nerfed just because of PVP

[Duck986]

5 minutes ago, DJO7000 said:

I agree but they should achieve this through refreshing the less powerful characters

I'm sorry, but how you will make WX-78 and Wolfgang more balanced by refreshing Wes (i remind you that it is a challenge character) or smth like that?

[DJO7000]

19 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

I'm sorry, but how you will make WX-78 and Wolfgang more balanced by nerfing Wes or smth like that

I'm saying the character should be refreshes in a POSITIVE WAY THAT MAKES THEM MORE FUN

It's not even like people play the most powerful characters the most

the reason people don't play Wolfgang a lot isn't because they find him so powerful he's boring he just has no interesting abilities that make him fun to play, he's only fun BECAUSE his damage is so high he's the main character for doing bosses solo he's not some character everyone exclusively plays I get bored quite easily in long term worlds when I play him but if he was nerfed then Wigfrid would be the "OP" character doing all the rushes

[SuperMeatGoy]

51 minutes ago, DJO7000 said:

I agree but they should achieve this through refreshing the less powerful characters

Reworking every character to be on par with wickerbottom would make the game crucially easier and would probably end up diverging from your motive by making the game boring. Fixing the problem of a powerful character by buffing everyone else would technically work in a PvP game because the players are primarily fighting eachother but it doesnt work in a PvE game quite well because it would end up decreasing the power of the "E" too much.

 

51 minutes ago, DJO7000 said:

the reason people don't play Wolfgang a lot isn't because they find him so powerful he's boring he just has no interesting abilities that make him fun to play, he's only fun BECAUSE his damage is so high he's the main character for doing bosses solo he's not some character everyone exclusively plays I get bored quite easily in long term worlds when I play him but if he was nerfed then Wigfrid would be the "OP" character doing all the rushes

Why would wigfrid be good at speedrunning? You see theres a crucial difference between Wigfrid and Wolfgang, Wigfrid is a character with a meaningful downside that has items & actual synergy whereas Wolfgang is just tuned stats. While Wolfgang can simply pick carrots while he's getting twigs the Wigfrid actually has to go out of her way specifically to get food which mitigates the slight time boost you'd get from killing the boss faster due to your attack boost.

[Harrowick]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

But reworking these characters will make the game fun for others because i cant play wx without being bored when i actually love the character (i have a lot of skins with him) 

Aye, I feel that. (WX-78's beautiful Roseate!) I'm just hoping the "big three" reworks focus on makin' em actually fun to play. Wolfgang and WX-78 at the moment are some of the most simple characters in their design, Wolfgang eats stuff and shreds, WX-78 eats a rare resource in multiplayer and gains a boost to all stats, and both characters don't even have a noticeable downside. 

(yeah, I know the ruins exists for gears, but I don't want to ruins rush on day 4 to get the most enjoyability out of a character.)

[BaronSamedi]

A true survival game is the game where surviving is barely impossible. And so, by asking someone to make the game easier, you break the very meaning of this game.

[DJO7000]

I'm not saying every character needs to be very good I'm saying every characters should be fun and have meaningful abilities

Nerfing characters will make the game less fun for those who play them

The good characters should get refreshes to make them more fun

Pure nerfs = bad 

Fun refreshes = good

Can someone please explain why they would rather a nerf than a refresh?????

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, DJO7000 said:

I'm not saying every character needs to be very good I'm saying every characters should be fun and have meaningful abilities

Nerfing characters will make the game less fun for those who play them

The good characters should get refreshes to make them more fun

Pure nerfs = bad 

Fun refreshes = good

Can someone please explain why they would rather a nerf than a refresh?????

but nobody wants just a nerf on wolfgang or wx, they will still being boring (a lot less because they will not be inmortal) but the mechanic will stay the same. People as for a rework that makes them less strong but more fun

[Mike23Ua]

Only balance changes I want from them is for Wickers spells to require some rarer harder to get items like frog leg, lightbulb, batwing, mushroom etc..

Wolfgang to require working out to maintain mighty form instead of just eating the entire fridge.. 

WX78 to no longer be upgradeable by eating all the gears on the map, but rather.. he can do like Wormwood and for portions of his own health reach in his chest compartment and pull out useful stuffs for his team like free gears and electrical doodads.

Give them each some more TEAM based functionality like Wicker being able to read the Codex Umbra and help Maxwell unlock higher potentials (same as she did Woodie and his curse) 

Wolfgang being able to throw his team mates in might form.

WX78 Free Stuffs at cost of own health & functionality.

Thats it.. they don’t need to be nerfed to the ground.. just tweaked to benefit Multiplayer.

[me real life]

4 hours ago, Brubs said:

Also... people sometimes forget pvp mode  exists ...where balancing is again, extremely important

PVP is not at all something that needs to be considered for balancing the rest of the game. The appeal of PVP is and always has been that you aren't really supposed to do it, you're using the game's mechanics in a way that it was never designed for. Klei added PVP as an option, did very mild balancing, and some of the early infamous character nerfs like Willow's lack of fire immunity were because of it, but otherwise since then they've always just left PVP to develop as its own thing. And that's why it was fun, and why it's still pretty fun with the right group.

It's like how new content shouldn't necessarily be designed around accommodating megabasing, as a big part of the appeal of megabasing comes from doing something you aren't intended to with the game's mechanics. New content shouldn't tear megabasing as a concept in half, but it's never going to, we're just going to deal with a few Antlions sometimes. In the same vein, character reworks aren't ever going to tear PVP in half for its remaining players.

 

About the original post itself, I 100% agree. People really seem to be reading "this isn't a competitive game" and immediately trying to figure out how to argue about DST in a competitive context while using wording that makes it seem like they're not. This isn't a game where you should "feel useless" because you're playing a character that isn't in some kind of meta or at the top of people's tier list. Because if the character you like to play is worse than others, what is stopping you from playing them except for the competitive mindset of needing a more "useful" character?

Really, this is a game where you can play whoever you like, and if you genuinely don't enjoy playing a character because they're too powerful then you can either A. limit yourself so as to make them more difficult or B. simply play someone else. Every WX player shouldn't have to suffer because WX is too powerful for you to have fun with, for example.

[GetNerfedOn]

Tbh I'm not really concerned with whether a character has or doesnt have superior stats, or whether said stats should be nerfed or buffed (counter to what my username implies). As a casual, I just wanna have fun. What I'm concerned about is if changes to characters (whether buff or nerf) make the said characters that I play unfun.

[ShadowDuelist]

2 hours ago, Sunset Skye said:

PVP is not at all something that needs to be considered for balancing the rest of the game. The appeal of PVP is and always has been that you aren't really supposed to do it, you're using the game's mechanics in a way that it was never designed for. Klei added PVP as an option, did very mild balancing, and some of the early infamous character nerfs like Willow's lack of fire immunity were because of it, but otherwise since then they've always just left PVP to develop as its own thing. And that's why it was fun, and why it's still pretty fun with the right group.

It's like how new content shouldn't necessarily be designed around accommodating megabasing, as a big part of the appeal of megabasing comes from doing something you aren't intended to with the game's mechanics. New content shouldn't tear megabasing as a concept in half, but it's never going to, we're just going to deal with a few Antlions sometimes. In the same vein, character reworks aren't ever going to tear PVP in half for its remaining players.

This.

Also I still think that should they ever decide to give PVP an update, it should have its own balance, so as soon as you start a game in PVP mode, all the stats will be different and not affect the non-pvp mode in any way.

Sort of like how it was at the forge, where all the characters and items had their own unique balance oriented to the forge only, and the regular game was not changed by this.

[Sub-Maxwell]

I think most people confuse the addition of better downsides with nerfs. As a lot of people have said, the overpowered characters don’t have downsides that even come close to meaningful. Wolfgang’s sanity drain isn’t drastic enough to be that noticeable. For Wickerbottom, sleeping isn’t really a commonplace thing for most players, and spoiled food is usually allowed to either rot, gets cooked, or is thrown in a crockpot to make better foods with renewed spoilage. WX-78 has low beginning stats, but a few gears solves that problem immediately and can even be obtained in the first autumn. Spring is the only real threat when it comes to rain damage, but by that point you can get an eyebrella from Deerclops.

To me, a character’s downside needs to fit their upside. Wendy has a fighting ghost, but she herself does less damage. Walter has ranged combat, but has low stats to counter it. Warly has great recipes and spice buffs, but takes a lot of crockpot knowledge and food to handle his gameplay early game. Wigfrid is great at combat, but needs to use that ability to get food. The Big 3 don’t need to be nerfed, they just need a downside to balance out their upsides.

[Mike23Ua]

Are we forgetting that downsides are seemingly disappearing completely with these characters reworks? Look at my Main Wendy.. her one and only downside was her attacks dealing less damage, now the petal bestowment buff actually makes her good to use. 

Willows Downside- Getting too cold in Winter is now made Less Harsh by gaining Warmth from holding Bernie in her hands, Bernie also doubles as a protector from Nightmare creatures.

But that’s the thing I don’t think anyone else is catching onto- Klei is making these characters easier to play without being so punishing.... exactly as things SHOULD be, the Characters themselves should be easier to pick up, have fun with and enjoy- Meanwhile the game world, it’s mobs, and the places you can go, explore & do.. THAT Should be the stuff trying to Kill You- 
Wurt has no real downside at all, she has all good perks and nothing bad, Walters “Deathly Allergic to Bee’s” is only a Minor Annoyance to him at best.... when the words DEATHLY ALLERGIC means Walter would be needing near immediate medical care.. 

Yet that is a downside he does not have- Despite Shipwrecked and Hamlet being slam full of the Health core bleed out mechanic.

The characters don’t need to be hard to play... there should be dedicated modes for that- I’m waiting for Klei’s version of what an Uncompromising Mode should be...

Meanwhile- the top tier truly OP characters could use some slight nerfs.. but don’t just nerf them for the sake of nerfing them, make their nerfs fun interesting core parts of their Gameplay.

Again- Lets look at Wendy’s Refresh, people say she didn’t change much- That’s a biased opinion, I main’d Wendy Before and After her Rework... and NOW Wendy has to spend a good bit of her time playing with her own personal version of the divining rod from single player DS, to obtain a currency only she can use, to craft potions to better her sister Abigails performance.

Its time to Nerf Wolfgang Instead of just “Eat Meat be All Mighty“ bring his Myriad of Phobias into Actual Gameplay.. Make him have to workout to be Mighty, Allow him to a Become Mighty by combining food and his Dumbell Workout he won’t need to always be full belly.. he can be mighty at a 70% full stomach and a Workout.. Make being Mighty Fun... instead of just Op Stats.. 

Like for example- Being able to throw teammates when in Mighty Form, or being able to “Merm-Punch” Rocks and not need to use tools.. 

Im tired of this “If it ain’t Broken don’t try to fix it.” attitude of some people on these forums- The Overpowered characters need to be reworked just as much as the underperforming & bland ones (Wes, Wilson)

The Goal of these Reworks aren’t to Nerf everyone or Buff everyone.. but rather- to make them each stand out, be truly unique and different from one another and overall FUN to Play as.

And if Wendy and Willows Reworks are any indication to go by- I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they removed Wolfgang’s Puny form completely and just made it Normal Wolfgang, and Mighty Wolfgang. 

 

[Yuuko]

I feel like this post is kinda outta no where... and quite hostile... and I see no reason for this at all.

First off - looking at the refreshes Klei has done, none of them have been nerfs.  I don't think this is an accident.  I think Klei's idea is to rise every character up, so there are only reason to pick a character, without many reasons not to.  Seeing this pattern there should be *zero* fear that Klei is coming to gut Wolfgang.  Just look at how OP Wendy came out of the rework lolol  Nothing to sweat about.

Secondly - Balance is balance.  In order to rework a character, and give them more good and interesting things to do, some boring and niche cases might need to go.  Such as Wendy's sanity station.  Yeah her sanity station was super good, but it was also kinda niche, and giving her more meaningful gameplay around her and Abi was worth the trade off.  Klei will probably need to take something away from Wolfgang and WX in order to give them interesting things to do because right now they don't actually do anything interesting.  Wolfgang and WX don't play much different from Wilson, except Wolfgang gets double damage with speed and WX gets double stat pools.  So yeah these guys are going to lose some amount of what they're able to do now, but that is in trade for them being able to do new things that actually make them interesting character choices, not just "PiCk WoLfGaNg KiLl BoSs"

[Auhrer]

I don't understand why they are concerned with worsening or improving a character in a PvE game, nobody plays PVP, very rare, each character is different, there will always be the weak and the strong, the support, the tanker, the damage, the difficult to play and easy to play.

If everyone is the same it will not be funny.
There are 17 characters, if you found it very easy just play with another, if you found it difficult then play with another.
There are so many characters for each to fit your style, and taste.

The game is PvE if you want a challenge, take the difficult character, it's simple.
 

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, Auhrer said:

I don't understand why they are concerned with worsening or improving a character in a PvE game, nobody plays PVP, very rare, each character is different, there will always be the weak and the strong, the support, the tanker, the damage, the difficult to play and easy to play.

If everyone is the same it will not be funny.
There are 17 characters, if you found it very easy just play with another, if you found it difficult then play with another.
There are so many characters for each to fit your style, and taste.

The game is PvE if you want a challenge, take the difficult character, it's simple.
 

I’m of a completely different mindset- It is 2020... having a single character filling out a particular set of challenges (Wormwood being the only one who can’t regain health by eating foods, Wicker being the only one who can’t use Tent, lean-to or Bedroll for Sanity regain etc....)

This forces people looking to play by those particular rules into playing as Only that one particular character- When... what if I wanted to play as Wendy, but with Wormwoods inability to heal from food items, and Maxwells maximum Health? 

This is what Mods are for to create your own character in the workshop and give them your own pro’s & con’s, but Playstation, Xbox & Nintendo do not have access to mods- Therefore the only way we can play by those rules is by playing that specific character.

There could be extra server options added to the game that lets me play with Wormwoods no health regain from eating foods con, but as any character I want to play as.

The TL:DR- the character you select to play as should no longer be the single defining factor on how easy or how hard your gameplay will be.

[wigfrids hat]

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m of a completely different mindset- It is 2020... having a single character filling out a particular set of challenges (Wormwood being the only one who can’t regain health by eating foods, Wicker being the only one who can’t use Tent, lean-to or Bedroll for Sanity regain etc....)

This forces people looking to play by those particular rules into playing as Only that one particular character- When... what if I wanted to play as Wendy, but with Wormwoods inability to heal from food items, and Maxwells maximum Health? 

This is what Mods are for to create your own character in the workshop and give them your own pro’s & con’s, but Playstation, Xbox & Nintendo do not have access to mods- Therefore the only way we can play by those rules is by playing that specific character.

There could be extra server options added to the game that lets me play with Wormwoods no health regain from eating foods con, but as any character I want to play as.

The TL:DR- the character you select to play as should no longer be the single defining factor on how easy or how hard your gameplay will be.

it is generally understood that playing one single character and only that character with all customization limited to aesthetics is both boring and undesirable. maybe it is better instead that the player be willing to try and do new things outside of their current comfort zone

[Cheggf]

On 6/22/2020 at 7:16 AM, Duck986 said:

Acquire dragon fruit > turn it into seeds > plant them > use Applied Horticulture book > repeat. Voila, many dragonfruits in just a few minutes.

This is probably the least useful thing you can do as Wickerbottom.