Mysterious box Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Toros said: Most of this is misleading or straight up false. Abi is *not* more difficult to heal than Bernie as you can apply elixers directly to her flower instead of having to pick up broken bernie and sew him. Abi attacks faster than Bernie and hits more than one target. Weremoose can also kill spiders/bees/splumonkies but will have to pay a much higher sanity cost, health cost, hunger cost. Saying it’s less efficient than Abi is straight up nonsense. Faster, maybe. Efficient, no. Bernie is also single target whereas Abi attacks more frequently, doesn’t pause to taunt, and hits in an aoe. Literally comparing apples to oranges. Bernie also doesn’t heal on his own. I wish I could like this more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terra B Welch Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Honestly for me I just feel 12 damage is lacking and the damage buff for lower health doesn't really make up for it unless you decide to go joeshmoe and play the game like a 1hp wes and even then it's just shy of 40 damage for abigail. Honestly if someone is going to play the game at 1hp at least make it a little more worthwhile, maybe like 60 damage or so per hit for abigail(When at 1hp), sounds like alot but you have to remember, you're literally risking the possibility of dying due to either one little mistake or just getting screwed by bad ping. I also realised that 12 damage on abigail means my old strategy for beating tentapillars won't work anymore as abigail won't 1shot the baby tentacles. Guess I gotta go back to abusing fugu hutch. I don't care how much some of the others will defend the damage nerf, I feel the 12 damage aoe just removes alot of the potential abigail used to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CremeLover Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Just now, Toros said: Most of this is misleading or straight up false. Abi is *not* more difficult to heal than Bernie as you can apply elixers directly to her flower instead of having to pick up broken bernie and sew him. Abi attacks faster than Bernie and hits more than one target. Weremoose can also kill spiders/bees/splumonkies but will have to pay a much higher sanity cost, health cost, hunger cost. Saying it’s less efficient than Abi is straight up nonsense. Faster, maybe. Efficient, no. Bernie is also single target whereas Abi attacks more frequently, doesn’t pause to taunt, and hits in an aoe. Literally comparing apples to oranges. Bernie also doesn’t heal on his own. I could keep going but why? Nothing in your post was a good, true argument. Not a very clever response, but I'll entertain it. You can heal bernie with a sewing kit for full health instantly, whereas abigail needs specific elixirs you need to farm for, and if you have trouble you can always being a second Bernie fully healed to the fight. With Weremoose does require more preparation, but if you are a good Woodie you won't get hit, and the sanity lost won't be that significant unless you were already almost insane to begin with. And just grab something to eat right after the farm is done, or just don't go with a full belly if the hunger loss is that significant for you. I do not comprehend how you understood me saying efficient as losing stats when I clearly said "longer" to describe Abigail farming in relation to Woodie. I can understand if you didn't read the whole thing. If you want a more fairer comparison, before Abigail could do what she does now, but more efficient, aka. faster. She does end up with more health that will eventually regenerate overnight, so there's that. And sure, you can just ignore where I compared her to her previous form. I understand constructing proper rebuttals can be challenging sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toros Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 hour ago, CremeLover said: Knowing when Abigail needs help and when she can take care of things by herself is also part of playing Wendy. You guys don't get it, is not only about damage nerfs. The shield does compensate the damage when when taking on multiple enemies simultaneously, and letting her kill large crowd with more health remaining (though not more efficiently, as she takes longer now). Abigail is now worse for taking on single foes, which was quite useful for worms, clockworks and other cave dwellers. Summon rushing is also gone as a tradeoff for the manageament mechanics. Sanity stations are a thing of the past and were replaced for a more cost-effective yet let effective version that only heals sanity, and cannot decrease it. Also underwhelming elixirs. The rework slightly improved one of her strong areas while nerfing every other strong thing she had going for her. There is also another issue. As she now takes longer on large crowds, *making woodie more efficient,* and her summon is harder to heal than bernie, is less tanky and deals less damage. She migth end up displaced from her exclusive nitche role the same way Woodie was displaced from his by Maxwell long ago. Is not that she's bad, is that other characters can do what she's supposed to excel at but better. I’m requoting this because you clearly forgot what you wrote. You explicitly said Woodie was more efficient. 20 minutes ago, CremeLover said: Not a very clever response, but I'll entertain it. You can heal bernie with a sewing kit for full health instantly, whereas abigail needs specific elixirs you need to farm for, and if you have trouble you can always being a second Bernie fully healed to the fight. With Weremoose does require more preparation, but if you are a good Woodie you won't get hit, and the sanity lost won't be that significant unless you were already almost insane to begin with. And just grab something to eat right after the farm is done, or just don't go with a full belly if the hunger loss is that significant for you. I do not comprehend how you understood me saying efficient as losing stats when I clearly said "longer" to describe Abigail farming in relation to Woodie. I can understand if you didn't read the whole thing. If you want a more fairer comparison, before Abigail could do what she does now, but more efficient, aka. faster. She does end up with more health that will eventually regenerate overnight, so there's that. And sure, you can just ignore where I compared her to her previous form. I understand constructing proper rebuttals can be challenging sometimes. I will readily admit that I’m not giving you my full effort. That’s because what your posts lack in intellectually complex content they make up for in logical fallacies and weasel words. Efficiency can be related to speed, but the terms are not equivalent. Efficiency is about cost vs benefit. Woodie can be faster, but also is more expensive and the additional sanity and speed cost have different values at different points in the game. Food and sanity costs become trivial, but at that point you can also spare the extra time too. Abi before could definitely do more damage, particularly in caves, but she also had a tendency to wander off and pick ill-advised fights forcing you to either spend healing supplies to fix her or more likely, Abi would die and then you wait for a flower cooldown. New Abi can easily be managed so she only fights the targets you want her to, and if she gets into trouble you can recall her and apply a strong healing salve, and she’ll be good to go in 15 seconds without the old tactic of crafting multiple flowers. My posts aren’t meant to be “clever”, they’re meant to be accurate. Abi is perfectly capable without any elixers for farming the sorts of things she is good at farming, and is very capable vs hounds as well. You saying she “needs” them is exactly why I called your first post misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Abigail was no where NEAR as effective at killing frog rain as she is now, her Shield she gains when getting Licked let’s her wipe an entire Frog Rain session fairly easily now. when PRE- Rework Abigail would’ve been continuously and quickly licked to death instantly by Frog Rain. Trust me.. I would know, I MAIN Wendy.. The Shield Abigail gets while being attacked by large swarms of Frog is what allows her to stay alive. Pre-Rework Wendy she wouldn’t have Stayed Alive at all. So please for the love of GOD and Klei Staff- Stop comparing Abigail to Bernie and Woodie... She isn’t meant to be Bernie or Woodie... but I can safely say she’s less likely to die now compared to Pre-Rework Abigail. Also keep in mind that console players don’t have mods- so maybe there was a Mod that made Abigail better on PC that I’m Unaware of.. but from a Console players Perspective- Frog Rain was Instant Death for Abigail Pre-Rework.. & Now it’s Not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuikui Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 On 3/21/2020 at 8:40 PM, Terra M Welch said: I also realised that 12 damage on abigail means my old strategy for beating tentapillars won't work anymore as abigail won't 1shot the baby tentacles. The bonus damages from Wendy health also apply to Aoe attack. To one shot baby tentacle with 20hp you just need Wendy to be at 80% (120hp) or less. 55% (83hp) or less. Edit: The bonus is quadratic, not linear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaw_ Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 I actually don't know the reason for all this discussion. My intention quoting Woodie and Willow was just to talk about how well they were made and had something more in the gameplay, without having received such deplorable statistics. The current Wendy is in fact much better than the old one, with the unique and improved gameplay, the only objective of the topic was to improve statistics to remove unnecessary stress from her gameplay. She performs the functions she used to do but in a way... not as good as it could be, and with that in mind, I and many here want to improve these aspects. Share your opinions and maintain respect for each other, without offending what the other thinks, it's not like these improvements are going to do you any harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruhmoment23 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, Toriih said: I actually don't know the reason for all this discussion. So you made a topic discussion about something, setted a wall of information you ,,wish" to discuss, but now you're saying it's pointless? 15 minutes ago, Toriih said: the only objective of the topic was to improve statistics to remove unnecessary stress from her gameplay. I'm lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaw_ Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 minute ago, bruhmoment23 said: So you made a topic discussion about something, setted a wall of information you ,,wish" to discuss, but now you're saying it's pointless? I'm saying about comparing everything to Woodie and Willow, this is not the focus and i already explained why i quoted'em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruhmoment23 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, Toriih said: I'm saying about comparing everything to Woodie and Willow, This is not the focus Well, that's probably because of the fact they both have received reworks, but some people miss out core information, that all these 3 characters are entirely seprate entities, and each has a diffrent role. Its like comparing a tomato to a banana. It's basically a show off that this and that is better than this and this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaw_ Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 minute ago, bruhmoment23 said: Well, that's probably because of the fact they both have received reworks, but some people miss out core information, that all these 3 characters are entirely seprete entities, and each has a diffrent role. Its like comparing a tomato to a banana. It's basically a show off that this and that is better than this and this. And that is exactly what I want to avoid, this whole comparison. In fact, everyone has different roles and I'm always repeating, I mentioned their rework because they were done well and the characters didn't have questionable statistics, I never compared the ability of the three to perform certain tasks. All I'm asking is to focus on the main thing, which is to remove the "unnecessary stress" that the character received, improving her current situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 21 minutes ago, Toriih said: remove unnecessary stress from her gameplay What do you mean? i never played more relaxed. Free food with 0 risk, walking around helping cute ghost, some help in bosses , cheap sanity station,friendly controls with abi... maybe just a armor elixir to deal with bosses like deerclops or moose goose but that would be op, she helping is equal a 0 downside, for that wendy has 0'75. If you can easy farm spiders and bosses will be no sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruhmoment23 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, Toriih said: And that is exactly what I want to avoid, this whole comparison. In fact, everyone has different roles and I'm always repeating, I mentioned their rework because they were done well and the characters didn't have questionable statistics, I never compared the ability of the three to perform certain tasks. All I'm asking is to focus on the main thing, which is to remove the "unnecessary stress" that the character received, improving her current situation. Ah well then, thank you for clarification. Sorry for misunderstanding of your previous statement. I was abit confused as to what was going on in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaw_ Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said: What do you mean? i never played more relaxed. Free food with 0 risk, walking around helping cute ghost, some help in bosses , cheap sanity station,friendly controls with abi... maybe just a armor elixir to deal with bosses like deerclops or moose goose but that would be op, she helping is equal a 0 downside, for that wendy has 0'75. If you can easy farm spiders and bosses will be no sense Everything to be said was discussed here, just read the ideas that have been gathered and are being supported. It’s not like it’s bad to improve small things, these are just changes that can improve gameplay for us, and in no way can that be bad, it's not overly powerful, Klei will decide the best to do 1 minute ago, bruhmoment23 said: Ah well then, thank you for clarification. Sorry for misunderstanding of your previous statement. I was abit confused as to what was going on in this thread. No problem, I'm glad for your support for this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweaper Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 6 hours ago, Sweaper said: With 600hp she will definitely do a lot better, the longer she survives, the longer she gets to block damage and do damage. But I'm not going to bother waiting for 600hp whenever she reaches the limit on number of mobs and dies. >>Wendy at 100% hp<< Abigail at 600hp 200 Frogs - Remaining hp 67, 58 30 hounds - dead (many alive) +shield - 113hp 50 hounds +shield - dead (9 alive) +vengeance - 51hp, 72hp +power - dead (many alive) 70 hounds +vengeance - dead (3 alive), dead (2 alive) 100 hounds +vengeance - dead (many alive) __________________ >>Wendy at 50% hp<< 70 hounds - dead (3 alive) 100 hounds +vengeance - 209 hp _________________ Vengeance OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaw_ Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Sweaper said: >>Wendy at 100% hp<< Abigail at 600hp 200 Frogs - Remaining hp 67, 58 30 hounds - dead (many alive) +shield - 113hp 50 hounds +shield - dead (9 alive) +vengeance - 51hp, 72hp +power - dead (many alive) 70 hounds +vengeance - dead (3 alive), dead (2 alive) 100 hounds +vengeance - dead (many alive) __________________ >>Wendy at 50% hp<< 70 hounds - dead (3 alive) 100 hounds +vengeance - 209 hp _________________ Vengeance OP Yeah, vengeance is so good that is worthless to use the Defense, as i said, same for the damage, it's not really helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweaper Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Just now, Toriih said: Yeah, vengeance is so good that is worthless to use the Defense, as i said Check 30 hounds with shield with Wendy at 100%, it's good. Vengeance is just overkill and expensive, you're not going to have to deal with more than 30 hounds for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaw_ Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, Sweaper said: Check 30 hounds with shield with Wendy at 100%, it's good. Vengeance is just overkill and expensive, you're not going to have to deal with more than 30 hounds for a long time. But there's many types of hordes that vengeance can deal with. The game is not just based in frogs and hounds xd Plus, check the good Veng. results against just that one for def Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 18 minutes ago, Sweaper said: Check 30 hounds with shield with Wendy at 100%, it's good. Vengeance is just overkill and expensive, you're not going to have to deal with more than 30 hounds for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweaper Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said: 16 minutes ago, Toriih said: But there's many types of hordes that vengeance can deal with. The game is not just based in frogs and hounds xd Plus, check the good Veng. results against just that one for def Most other mobs are better killing 1 by 1 or make them kill themselves if you have the choice to do so, so not many reason to use 4 morning glory for these. Only exception is beefalo since it takes a lot of time to separate them. No elixir is worth using on Tusk and splumonkeys are comparable to hounds damage wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CremeLover Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Toros said: I’m requoting this because you clearly forgot what you wrote. You explicitly said Woodie was more efficient. I will readily admit that I’m not giving you my full effort. That’s because what your posts lack in intellectually complex content they make up for in logical fallacies and weasel words. Efficiency can be related to speed, but the terms are not equivalent. Efficiency is about cost vs benefit. Woodie can be faster, but also is more expensive and the additional sanity and speed cost have different values at different points in the game. Food and sanity costs become trivial, but at that point you can also spare the extra time too. Abi before could definitely do more damage, particularly in caves, but she also had a tendency to wander off and pick ill-advised fights forcing you to either spend healing supplies to fix her or more likely, Abi would die and then you wait for a flower cooldown. New Abi can easily be managed so she only fights the targets you want her to, and if she gets into trouble you can recall her and apply a strong healing salve, and she’ll be good to go in 15 seconds without the old tactic of crafting multiple flowers. My posts aren’t meant to be “clever”, they’re meant to be accurate. Abi is perfectly capable without any elixers for farming the sorts of things she is good at farming, and is very capable vs hounds as well. You saying she “needs” them is exactly why I called your first post misleading. Efficiency is about cost vs benefit, and in case you are unware, time is also a cost, and obviously the resource I put more emphasis on judging by my original response that you have quoted twice. 2 hours ago, CremeLover said: As she now takes longer on large crowds, *making woodie more efficient* Yet it seems that, despite you re-reading the post, such fine details elude your grasp. Abigail did get stuck on mobs and tentacles sometimes, but walking away far enough was enough to teleport her away from whatever purposeless fight she was waging if you really didn't care about the fight itself, and by the time it took to arrive where you needed to go she'd probably be almost at full health. She did die if you didn't took a break or took proper care of her. In that case, keeping an extra flower on inventory was the way to go, and she was ready to fight at full health instantly. You do need to farm for elixirs and you need those to heal, healing salves are far from a useful resource management when abigail can regenrate those HP very fast. Sorry, I find this conversation very shallow and disheartening,and you seem to miss every single one of my points, if you don't want to put any effort and so be it, I won't either. 16 minutes ago, Sweaper said: snip That's some very nice data! Might I ask, did you tested it by spawning them and going into a bush hat so they instantly aggro on abigail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweaper Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, CremeLover said: That's some very nice data! Might I ask, did you tested it by spawning them and going into a bush hat so they instantly aggro on abigail? They auto aggro on Abigail as long as she is on aggro mode since she will attack at the moment the spawn, EDIT: I'm not sure how their AI works but it takes a few seconds for them to decide which one to attack so when they see another hound being attacked they will focus the one attacking it. And even with hat, I would have to move because the hounds push Abigail far too much, 1 entire biome worth of pushing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaw_ Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, Sweaper said: Most other mobs are better killing 1 by 1 or make them kill themselves if you have the choice to do so, so not many reason to use 4 morning glory for these. Only exception is beefalo since it takes a lot of time to separate them. No elixir is worth using on Tusk and splumonkeys are comparable to hounds damage wise. I see and i understand what you mean, but since you're with Abigail, well, let's use her! Glories aren't that hard to get and it comes in a good quantity. If they actually improve how Defense works i can agree that both Thorns and Defense can be situational, but until there, thorns is more woth it to me. And with all changes that we here are waiting, it can be even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShyRo-Zyerenzy Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, Sweaper said: Most other mobs are better killing 1 by 1 or make them kill themselves if you have the choice to do so, so not many reason to use 4 morning glory for these. Only exception is beefalo since it takes a lot of time to separate them. No elixir is worth using on Tusk and splumonkeys are comparable to hounds damage wise. Vigor for any running mob, that needs to get aggroed quickly ( tusk, koalefant ) you can get it very early in the game, a nice option in the first days without needing to corner them in the borders or lack ranged weapon. ( If you value time ofc ) it also speeds the tusk fight ( i tested this with pre abi angry mode patch ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Up Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Can't relate to like 80% of what I read here, but my 2 cents are that bosses shouldn't do double damage to Abby, and the defensive elixir should give damage reduction. Other elixirs could use a buff too. Other than that, Wendy is perfect. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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