Klei pls fix this rework

[Kaw_]

I really loved the new way to play Wendy but there are two things that REALLY BOTHER ME:

First: Damage Penalty

• At 150 HP abigail has 20 damage, but does 12 against 2+ monsters.

For real, allow her to do 20 base damage against everything with no penalty. That is really annoying. Before the rework, Wendy gameplay was more like "Sister helping Sister", now it feels like "You do it or i do". It's strange to work together with Abigail now, she only does damage if you risk yourself, and by doing that you can't help her. And if you're safe Abigail is mostly useless, she has no damage and only can do something by getting all the aggro and getting attacks, and here is where my second wish comes in:

Second: CHANGE the Defense Elixir.

It's totally pointless to use it against hordes and even other monsters, for real. I was comparing many fights using it and she took the same amount of damage always, dying even faster than when i used Thorns, the thing is, with Thorns she actually killed them, and didn't died in the process.

To actually be useful in fights, change it's effect to give Abigail 65/70% defense like an armor, so Wendy and Abigail can work together killing hordes and even BOSSES.

i DID tested out both Elixirs in use, and the Defense wasn't doing ANYTHING worth of using it. It didn't even was looking like it worked.

Please Klei, consider doing these changes, even if you need to change something here or there, but change it. It feels almost unviable to play Wendy now, even "rilled up" effect feels bad now. She killing everything was doing really well, it helped Wendy to farm stuff safely and start fights safely.

You did so well with new Bernie and new Woodie transformations, but looks like you're failing with Wendy. Why? I don't want to lose all the fun i have playing with her because of that.

Really hope these wishes didn't get confusing. It's really not being funny using Wendy like that comparing to before, at least if these changes don't get applied.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*Additional notes:

• Bernie: 2000 HP + 50 base damage against EVERYTHING. Can be sewed and no level to lose.
• Requirements: Get insane.
• Willow: No damage penalty in the character itself so you can use Bernie's damage + yourself with any weapon.

I know Wendy's proposal is to have a different gameplay and Abigail isn't any fighter, but c'mon... These aren't all the problems that this rework has but just by changing that could make everything BETTER. Most of it. All the team that worked on it was really creative on the gameplay changes, but the stats got too deplorable.

Give back Abigail's 10/20/40 damage and change the Elixir or just fix the Defense Elixir, remove the 2+ monsters penalty AND (optional, but would be nice) give Abigail +5 damage per level, totaling 30 at level 3 if possible so Wendy and Abigail can work together again, without any penalty against hordes. No need to change the 60 damage at 1 Hp If these changes actually happen. Finally, it would be considerable to stack up to 2 elixir effects, considering her current situation (At least the life regen with others, like REGEN + Thorns or REGEN + movespeed and REGEN + others elixirs). This is all just my idea and, thankfully, other people who love playing with the character. Please consider at least her damage penalty.

Extra: Please also check the damage elixir, it is very strange that the increase is in percentage. Add a standard amount.

-------------------------------

(EDIT) Special message: I want to thank everyone who participated in the topic. Everyone contributed with information and opinions that can and will help Klei to make a good decision, taking all possible considerations to the maximum. I'm glad that more people than expected came together to share your thoughts. We don't all agree with everything, but the important thing is to say what you think. Now we have to wait for a decision of the developers.

Thank you all, again!

[reDink]

my friend, I make your words as mine too. As main Wendy since early access I felt that now she (Abigail) does everything or I (Wendy) do things without her ... I really felt a lot of loss in relation to the "sister helping sister" gameplay

all of these considerations would be very welcome, it would really make the gameplay a lot more fun.

I really liked the current rework but I really felt a lot of loss on the part of Abigail.

[nickymilky]

I must agree with what Toriih mentioned, I am also main wendy, I always had all the skins and I loved playing with her all the time, but the way she is now, I totally lost the pleasure of playing with her.
I liked many changes, but I hated many others. The fact that the damage decreases when it attacks more than one mob, you used to be able to farm spiders and other mobs in an easy and effective way, now, it can barely do that.
After the first update, I thought the only defect was that the damage was low (20) and that it was divided (12) in the presence of more mobs, but after this recent update, any other character is better than playing with it, for me. An example is willow, she is a very strong character after the rework near wendy, besides bernie having 2k of HP, he does a lot more damage (50 per hit) and can be repaired 100% with a simple sewing kit and it dosen't have any additional penality, willow just need to be insane.
I am very sad, I have been waiting for her rework for a long time and now I am disappointed. If it continues in this way, I will abandon the character and play with  willow, which is worth a lot more or woodie, which was also very good after rework .
I hope Klei take into account what we are talking about :/ 

[Scrimbles]

I for one think we could tune characters down quite a bit. Compared to some top tiers sure Wendy isn't as flashy, but Abby has always been an invaluable tool, at the very least maybe they could bump her group damage up slightly.

The shield potion I agree on, it's kinda mediocre.

Also surprised you used Woodie as an example of a good rework.

[Kaw_]

3 minutes ago, Ogrecakes said:

I for one think we could tune characters down quite a bit. Compared to some top tiers sure Wendy isn't as flashy, but Abby has always been an invaluable tool, at the very least maybe they could bump her group damage up slightly.

The shield potion I agree on, it's kinda mediocre.

Also surprised you used Woodie as an example of a good rework.

Yeah, but as i said Wendy never had a powerful gameplay, just a unique and different way to be played, now that has been improved, but Abigail was completely killed in the process.

Dunno if by saying that about Woodie you agree or disagree, but they really did well with both characters for me.

[Spaartan]

As the trailer showed us, they should be two sides of the same coin. They should at least be equals and be able to support each other efficiently. Abigail should at least be able to hold her own against bosses to an extent and maybe even kill them when supported by Wendy. I'm not saying make Wendy op, just make Abigail useful against more stuff, with less requirements to do so.

[Rinkusan]

47 minutes ago, Ogrecakes said:

Also surprised you used Woodie as an example of a good rework.

I'm a bit confused here; I thought Woodie's rework after the transformation time limit modifications was well-received. They basically turned him from a discount Maxwell to a versatile jack-of-all-trades scout character. If I recall correctly, people were mostly complaining about how short the transformations lasted, hence the time limit modifications.

[Scrimbles]

2 minutes ago, Rinkusan said:

I'm a bit confused here; I thought Woodie's rework after the transformation time limit modifications was well-received. They basically turned him from a discount Maxwell to a versatile jack-of-all-trades scout character. If I recall correctly, people were mostly complaining about how short the transformations lasted, hence the time limit modifications.

His forms are all weaker than his singleplayer Werebeaver, and he has no base weakness.

They split one good form into 3 mediocre forms, which couldn't refill their meter, took health damage, were affected by sanity, and were effected by weather.

[Rinkusan]

4 minutes ago, Ogrecakes said:

His forms are all weaker than his singleplayer Werebeaver, and he has no base weakness.

They split one good form into 3 mediocre forms, which couldn't refill their meter, took health damage, were affected by sanity, and were effected by weather.

Could you elaborate on this point? Knowing how varied DST players are with their playstyle, 'weaker' sounds super-vague here.

 

1 hour ago, Toriih said:

Second: CHANGE the Defense Elixir.

Do you happen to know what the actual mechanic for the defense elixir is? Does it give a permanent % damage reduction, or is it like the bone armor where it blocks all damage but has a cooldown before blocking any attack?

[Sweaper]

12 minutes ago, Ogrecakes said:

His forms are all weaker than his singleplayer Werebeaver, and he has no base weakness.

They split one good form into 3 mediocre forms, which couldn't refill their meter, took health damage, were affected by sanity, and were effected by weather.

You're comparing a semi godmode character to one that got balanced to a multiplayer environment. It would be pretty wishful to want his singleplayer version in DST, people would be beaver 24/7 while munching on that wood Maxwell just gathered.

[Kaw_]

Not based in strenght, just like Wendy he (Woodie) got a different gameplay, many ways to be played that other characters don't have. But the point is, I, and I believe that most of those who support this post, are concerned about Abigail's damage. Again, she was never a fighter and she didn't even stand out in that area, she just had a simples and unique gameplay. Now that her gameplay still unique and improved, they killed the partnership between Wendy and Abigail, in addition to Abigail's own damage, which is where I see it needs to change

17 minutes ago, Rinkusan said:

Could you elaborate on this point? Knowing how varied DST players are with their playstyle, 'weaker' sounds super-vague here.

 

Do you happen to know what the actual mechanic for the defense elixir is? Does it give a permanent % damage reduction, or is it like the bone armor where it blocks all damage but has a cooldown before blocking any attack?

As i said, It doesn't even look like It works. I've tried many different fights with hordes of frogs, hounds and solo fights with monsters. She continued to take the same amount of damage, with no visible difference. She even died in some tests. That's why making the Elixir works like armor and give Abigail % of resistances is going to work a lot better

[Ason180]

Personally, my biggest issue with Wendy has always been her -25% damage, it just makes so many bossfights so tedious, especially 20k+ health bosses.  Just today I fought Dragonfly in my playthrough, and that fight took 2 in game days with a fresh ham bat, granted I got SUPER unlucky with how often she spawned her larva, but I can usually get that fight done in just under a day with normal characters.  The damage modifier doesn't even make sense with her character, the only thing that I can think of as to why that would be a thing is because she is 8-10 years old, but then why is she able to chop down trees, mine boulders, and uproot tree stumps like it's nothing?  And even if that is the explanation as to why she does less damage, why is THAT what's expressed as her downside instead of her being "the bereaved."  If the -25% damage modifier were to be removed, an idea that I have as a new downside for her would be to make her lose sanity during the day, say 7.5 sanity per minute, which is 50% more than normal characters lose during dusk and night.  To balance this, she could not lose sanity during dusk and night, or even gain sanity during night, say 3.3 sanity per minute which is equivalent to the top hat.  If you're really concerned about newer players, Abigail could be able to fight shadow creatures, but Wendy wouldn't get any sanity if Abigail is the one who kills it.  This would give newer players the incentive to actually help Abigail fight shadow creatures, and would give experienced players the incentive to play as Wendy since you would be able to farm nightmare fuel easier.  I've also seen some people saying to tie Abigail's damage to Wendy's sanity, and I think that mechanic would work well with this idea.  Abigail could either do more damage the lower Wendy's sanity is so that Wendy is at her best when her sanity is low, or Abigail could do more damage the higher Wendy's sanity is to make her sanity loss a noticeable downside even to players that like to always be insane.  I AM NOT SAYING THIS THIS IS WHAT THE WENDY REWORK SHOULD'VE BEEN, NOR AM I INTENDING ANY HATE TOWARDS KLEI, these are just some ideas that I came up with.  Personally, I quite like the rework, I just feel it missed a few marks.

 

 

TLDR:  Remove Wendy's -25% damage modifier, make her lose sanity during the day but gain sanity during the night, let Abigail attack shadow creatures but Wendy does not gain sanity if Abigail is the one who kills a shadow creature, tie Abigail's damage to Wendy's sanity. 

[Spaartan]

1 hour ago, Toriih said:

Not based in strenght, just like Wendy he (Woodie) got a different gameplay, many ways to be played that other characters don't have. But the point is, I, and I believe that most of those who support this post, are concerned about Abigail's damage. Again, she was never a fighter and she didn't even stand out in that area, she just had a simples and unique gameplay. Now that her gameplay still unique and improved, they killed the partnership between Wendy and Abigail, in addition to Abigail's own damage, which is where I see it needs to change

As i said, It doesn't even look like It works. I've tried many different fights with hordes of frogs, hounds and solo fights with monsters. She continued to take the same amount of damage, with no visible difference. She even died in some tests. That's why making the Elixir works like armor and give Abigail % of resistances is going to work a lot better

The 2 main thing we need are:

Buff to Abby's stats in general

and

Altering how the elixirs work (mainly the defense one)

 

Giving Abigail more viability lategame would be sweet. Especially as one of the group's main tanks/attackers.

[Kaw_]

Just now, Spaartan said:

The 2 main thing we need are:

Buff to Abby's stats in general

and

Altering how the elixirs work (mainly the defense one)

 

Giving Abigail more viability lategame would be sweet. Especially as one of the group's main tanks/attackers.

Yep, fixing those two things will improve the gameplay a lot. I'm glad you agree!

[Spaartan]

Just now, Toriih said:

Yep, fixing those two things will improve the gameplay a lot. I'm glad you agree!

I'm happy that she's finally getting the attention she deserved, but she still needs a bit more. I have always been a Wendy main so I want to take this opportunity to make her more powerful and balanced. :))) 

[Kaw_]

3 minutes ago, Spaartan said:

I'm happy that she's finally getting the attention she deserved, but she still needs a bit more. I have always been a Wendy main so I want to take this opportunity to make her more powerful and balanced. :))) 

All of us here expect the same. I am so happy that this topic is receiving so much support, I am really confident that she can get these changes that she needs so much!

[Booklover]

Tbh I kinda do like the new Wendy since it made Abby do 20 damage even in Day but the penalty is annoying. My favorite was riling Abby up at base where there's flowers so we get a constant stream of food but I think that's changed which was sad.

The new Wendy feels more like a summoner/mage where they get a strong familiar in exhange for having a fragile constituition. Glass cannons, so to speak. Although I will say that if you ever try to walk the path of 1hp which I tried to, only do it when you're the host with good connection and only with Bone Armour because I died to friggin FIRE.

Most of your suggestions make Wendy and Abby into more of a Hunter & Dog duo instead of Summoner & Protector. Personally, I preferred having the Summoner & Protector one simply because it feels more challenging and mage-like to constantly be at 1hp and getting rewarded for it, high risk high reward.

[Kaw_]

25 minutes ago, Ason180 said:

Personally, my biggest issue with Wendy has always been her -25% damage, it just makes so many bossfights so tedious, especially 20k+ health bosses.  Just today I fought Dragonfly in my playthrough, and that fight took 2 in game days with a fresh ham bat, granted I got SUPER unlucky with how often she spawned her larva, but I can usually get that fight done in just under a day with normal characters.  The damage modifier doesn't even make sense with her character, the only thing that I can think of as to why that would be a thing is because she is 8-10 years old, but then why is she able to chop down trees, mine boulders, and uproot tree stumps like it's nothing?  And even if that is the explanation as to why she does less damage, why is THAT what's expressed as her downside instead of her being "the bereaved."  If the -25% damage modifier were to be removed, an idea that I have as a new downside for her would be to make her lose sanity during the day, say 7.5 sanity per minute, which is 50% more than normal characters lose during dusk and night.  To balance this, she could not lose sanity during dusk and night, or even gain sanity during night, say 3.3 sanity per minute which is equivalent to the top hat.  If you're really concerned about newer players, Abigail could be able to fight shadow creatures, but Wendy wouldn't get any sanity if Abigail is the one who kills it.  This would give newer players the incentive to actually help Abigail fight shadow creatures, and would give experienced players the incentive to play as Wendy since you would be able to farm nightmare fuel easier.  I've also seen some people saying to tie Abigail's damage to Wendy's sanity, and I think that mechanic would work well with this idea.  Abigail could either do more damage the lower Wendy's sanity is so that Wendy is at her best when her sanity is low, or Abigail could do more damage the higher Wendy's sanity is to make her sanity loss a noticeable downside even to players that like to always be insane.  I AM NOT SAYING THIS THIS IS WHAT THE WENDY REWORK SHOULD'VE BEEN, NOR AM I INTENDING ANY HATE TOWARDS KLEI, these are just some ideas that I came up with.  Personally, I quite like the rework, I just feel it missed a few marks.

 

 

TLDR:  Remove Wendy's -25% damage modifier, make her lose sanity during the day but gain sanity during the night, let Abigail attack shadow creatures but Wendy does not gain sanity if Abigail is the one who kills a shadow creature, tie Abigail's damage to Wendy's sanity. 

I know what you mean but that would destroy the character. The main idea of her is to survive fighting with her sister, helping each other. In fact we can say that many things in this game have no sense, but that's not the idea xD

The focus of this topic is to improve the "one sister helping another" aspect, as with the current Abigail it is impossible to do that.

I really understand what you mean,  but that would deconstruct the game too much, so it’s not good to get into this topic here, or even you can start another one in the forum.

[Lukmendes]

Abigail's damage being nerfed when dealing with mobs is so counter intuitive to her design, it'd be like Wigfrid losing HP and/or sanity when fighting, it's just weird to somewhat punish the player for using Abigail in what she's meant to be used for, I think she should either hit harder against mobs, or stay the same.

 

Her stats definitely need to be buffed, specially Elixyr stuff, and it makes no sense that they can't stack with each other, Warly's spices can be stacked with each other, which helps out other characters a lot, but Elyxir made specifically for Abigail can't stack?

 

I think Klei likes to play it safe with updates, I think Woodie's transformations post-refresh only lasted for a minute or so, meaning you couldn't do much with 'em, and Elyxir are in a similar situation, hopefully that means they'll hear the feedback and give them some buffs.

 

Also, the "less HP means Abigail hits harder" would be better off having a cap, walking around at 1HP to have her hitting at her hardest is way too risky even for great players, and it's even more of a risk if the game is lagging, it being replaced with sanity instead would certainly be more convenient, but I don't think that's what Klei is going for, but I really think the limit should be like, 40HP maybe? Or just any number that isn't too low, but still manageable.

[Kaw_]

12 minutes ago, Booklover said:

Tbh I kinda do like the new Wendy since it made Abby do 20 damage even in Day but the penalty is annoying. My favorite was riling Abby up at base where there's flowers so we get a constant stream of food but I think that's changed which was sad.

The new Wendy feels more like a summoner/mage where they get a strong familiar in exhange for having a fragile constituition. Glass cannons, so to speak. Although I will say that if you ever try to walk the path of 1hp which I tried to, only do it when you're the host with good connection and only with Bone Armour because I died to friggin FIRE.

Most of your suggestions make Wendy and Abby into more of a Hunter & Dog duo instead of Summoner & Protector. Personally, I preferred having the Summoner & Protector one simply because it feels more challenging and mage-like to constantly be at 1hp and getting rewarded for it, high risk high reward.

Well, it kind of kills the main aspect of the character who was surviving with her sister, not using her to do everything. This current state as I am saying, turns the gameplay into "or you do, or I do "And no rework destroyed the essence of the characters, but it was not the case with Wendy. But what destroys that aspect is exactly the penalty, removing it you can either play that way or help Abigail, without leaving nobody sad, y'know?

Remove the penalty and everyone is happy.

5 minutes ago, Lukmendes said:

Abigail's damage being nerfed when dealing with mobs is so counter intuitive to her design, it'd be like Wigfrid losing HP and/or sanity when fighting, it's just weird to somewhat punish the player for using Abigail in what she's meant to be used for, I think she should either hit harder against mobs, or stay the same.

 

Her stats definitely need to be buffed, specially Elixyr stuff, and it makes no sense that they can't stack with each other, Warly's spices can be stacked with each other, which helps out other characters a lot, but Elyxir made specifically for Abigail can't stack?

 

I think Klei likes to play it safe with updates, I think Woodie's transformations post-refresh only lasted for a minute or so, meaning you couldn't do much with 'em, and Elyxir are in a similar situation, hopefully that means they'll hear the feedback and give them some buffs.

 

Also, the "less HP means Abigail hits harder" would be better off having a cap, walking around at 1HP to have her hitting at her hardest is way too risky even for great players, and it's even more of a risk if the game is lagging, it being replaced with sanity instead would certainly be more convenient, but I don't think that's what Klei is going for, but I really think the limit should be like, 40HP maybe? Or just any number that isn't too low, but still manageable.

You said everything! I am happy with your support.

[Booklover]

3 minutes ago, Toriih said:

Well, it kind of kills the main aspect of the character who was surviving with her sister, not using her to do everything. This current state as I am saying, turns the gameplay into "or you do, or I do "And no rework destroyed the essence of the characters, but it was not the case with Wendy. But what destroys that aspect is exactly the penalty, removing it you can either play that way or help Abigail, without leaving nobody sad, y'know?

Remove the penalty and everyone is happy.

I petition for removing the darn penalty but I do like everything despite the fact it meant I'm gonna die alot. It feels like someone who actuallys works like a wizard came into The Constant ya know? Maxwell somewhat fits the category of Wizard since his Shadow Duelists can deal 68 damage if he has 2 out but usually you'd be gathering mountains, not sending shadow minions off to suicide.

Wickerbottom does have witch-like qualities but in the end she has a more perfectionistic leader feel to her, dampening the witchiness.

TL;DR I want to keep this rework for RPG reasons but eff the penalty because it's like it can't decide between letting Abby deal with single targets well or letting her deal with crowds well.

[Scrimbles]

2 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

Could you elaborate on this point? Knowing how varied DST players are with their playstyle, 'weaker' sounds super-vague here.

 

Do you happen to know what the actual mechanic for the defense elixir is? Does it give a permanent % damage reduction, or is it like the bone armor where it blocks all damage but has a cooldown before blocking any attack?

Woodie's original Werebeaver did 41 damage at a fast pace, now it does 27, and the moose does 60 but attacks very slow and moves very slow, making the overall dps much lower.

Original Werebeaver could replenish its meter by eating logs.

Original Werebeaver didn't take health damage, but took chunks out of the log meter when taking damage.

Original Werebeaver wasn't affected by sanity, or weather of any kind.

The Moose form is was harder to kite with and attacks way slower, and is mainly good for just stomping spiders, but also the costs are much higher and you risk taking damage.

 

They kept on nerfing and messing with Woodie in DST, and decided to just split all the good qualities of one form into 3 forms that are nothing compared to the sum of their parts, which is the classic Werebeaver.

None of the forms feel nearly as fun, powerful, and dynamic as classic Werebeaver.

[me real life]

2 hours ago, Ogrecakes said:

His forms are all weaker than his singleplayer Werebeaver

How much have you played Woodie in DS recently?
- He drops literally everything in his inventory every time he transforms.
- He gets put to low stats and skips up to a full day whenever he transforms back to human.
- He has to deal with being forced into those last two things twice in a row every 16 days.
- When farming wood, he has to constantly eat the thing he's farming in order to continue farming that thing.
- He has a constant "health" drain in the form of the log meter if you try to fight as the Werebeaver..
- When farming wood, you have to use the mouse rather than spacebar or else the Werebeaver will instantly scarf down one log because eating those is also a spacebar action. I have somehow never seen anyone complain about this.
- He doesn't even go back to the idle animation after you gnaw something, he just stands completely still. I have never seen anyone mention or bug report this.
- If you let the log meter run down to 0 and then gnaw literally anything, you're stuck as the Werebeaver with godmode until you relog. Somehow, despite DS Woodie apparently being amazing and people loving to play him, I never once heard about this incredibly and absolutely broken bug until stumbling on it myself while messing around.

Like, if I'm being completely honest, I would say most anyone who talks about DS Werebeaver has not played Woodie in DS in years if at all, because people just call him generically "powerful" or a "combat god" or whatever but nobody actually talks about it in the context of how he is in real gameplay, or anything about said gameplay outside of the 2 minutes it takes to kill a Deerclops.

[Kaw_]

2 minutes ago, Booklover said:

I petition for removing the darn penalty but I do like everything despite the fact it meant I'm gonna die alot. It feels like someone who actuallys works like a wizard came into The Constant ya know? Maxwell somewhat fits the category of Wizard since his Shadow Duelists can deal 68 damage if he has 2 out but usually you'd be gathering mountains, not sending shadow minions off to suicide.

Wickerbottom does have witch-like qualities but in the end she has a more perfectionistic leader feel to her, dampening the witchiness.

TL;DR I want to keep this rework for RPG reasons but eff the penalty because it's like it can't decide between letting Abby deal with single targets well or letting her deal with crowds well.

Yes, removing the penalty is my main objective and that of many here I believe. Would greatly improve her situation.

[Owlrust]

As much as I wish it weren't true, right now it really kinda feels like Wendy is now a worse Willow but with dmg reduction and a less useful bernie as it stands.

I'm sure Klei will address any concerns in a future patch later, if needed; they have always been good to the community, and after the Woodie rework (with all its insane backlash) they demonstrated that profusely.