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I don't understand why Klei haven't made the Ancient Guardian uncheesable


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Like really, this took about 5 minutes to do.

 

I always get really disappointed when I join a server, and within 2 days people are coming out of the ruins with late game weapons and armor, all because the game's ai and structures can be abused :(

 

Edit: seems some people are okay with the cheese purely because the fight REALLY sucks, already got some improvements in the works.

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honestly, i'm scared of most of that late game stuff in the caves. i'm thankful for the cheese-ability, since it means i can actually kill him without rolling back a collective 50 times. If you know how to kill him the "legitimate" way, more power to you. you don't have to worry about gravestones and pillars being in the right place.

by the by, if the answer to my query is yes, could you please join my server and kill him for me. I would be grateful for the moment to see someone better at this game than me.

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You can stunlock him face to face if your ping is good enough,his a.i sucks (:                                     Tbh,he's probably one of the worst bosses klei ever made,it's just a super buggy bigger clockwork rook with more damage and health plus an extra close range attack. And if you want to beat him without glitches,you either craft a manure ton of armor and tank him or just stack some speed boost items like magi+walking cane,his fight is not that fun nor challenging either way. (Also,i've heard that 3 rock lobsters are enough to kill him,kinda pathetic,if you ask me.)

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7 hours ago, Ogrecakes said:

I always get really disappointed when I join a server, and within 2 days people are coming out of the ruins with late game weapons and armor..

Aha. So is not about your fun and personal experience with DST fights but about others'. The classic "dammit they be bragging and I don't like that". Oh, how many "we should fix AI and exploits" topics around these forums ultimately boil-down to that, heh.

I for one don't care about what other players may or may not achieve during my pub sessions. I saw Wes players going in winter for Ruins with nothing beside torches, grass suits, axes and very big cojones - to Status Announce 2 days later after their spawn a Guardian Horn and Thule stuff in inventory. Good for them, it means they've mastered the game, glitches most included. I don't have any problem with them abusing aspects of the game - again, it means they have the knowledge and most importantly, experience with said know-how to actually prevail. And no, just knowing doesn't mean you suddenly are "a pro" - a $#it-tone of stuff can and will go wrong, and when that happens experience makes the difference. Is "legit" AG fight fun? If it had 2k life for a single player, maybe. A 10k one definitely not. And for the loot it gives a 10k "legit" fight for sure isn't worth it in my book. One could argue DST has in its title the desired game-play: as a team. Yet how many people do actually play as teams, more so in pubs where everyone is prone to their own mojo?! Or you fancy a tanking approach, how almost all fights go as teams against Dragonfly? Oh wait, I saw in past complains about that type of fighting related to DF too. Hmmm...

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fixing guardian isn't going to stop good ruins rushers from getting the thulecite equipment early. I saw a duo the other day clear ruins by about day 6. 

if it does ever get fixed i'd be fine with it. just a couple rock lobsters can easily defeat the guardian. before I knew about the current cheese method, i used to kill guardian with a few bee mines. since the guardian can only hit one enemy at a time, he gets overwhelmed by bees and he rarely hits you over the bees.

40 minutes ago, Wumpus the 19th said:

by the by, if the answer to my query is yes, could you please join my server and kill him for me. I would be grateful for the moment to see someone better at this game than me.

can i help.

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There's so much more than pillars that can help you with the AC :wilsondisappointed:, you can use as well other elements like headstones or infinite stun lock with Bee Mines or lot of players and mob that are way too strong like the Rock Lobsters or a Stalker army, so far I'm quite sure it will never be fixed properly cause so many single players think this fight is too much hardcore on the standard way (which is wrong, it's just very long...), I can just hope for a complete redesign of this fight or making him harder to cheese after the first kill, which is not very likely from what Klei is doing, they've done it only with the dragonfly atm.

But otherwise this pillar feature is nice, it gives thulecite and I just hope they're gonna be respawning with the Atrium Gate, this little change is just right.

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Imo ancient guardian should just get reworked. Like others have said, his fight is pretty boring and it's not like your missing out on a super cool fight by not cheesing him, your just fighting a mega rook. I don't think this should be very high priority though.

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1 hour ago, Wumpus the 19th said:

honestly, i'm scared of most of that late game stuff in the caves. i'm thankful for the cheese-ability, since it means i can actually kill him without rolling back a collective 50 times. If you know how to kill him the "legitimate" way, more power to you. you don't have to worry about gravestones and pillars being in the right place.

by the by, if the answer to my query is yes, could you please join my server and kill him for me. I would be grateful for the moment to see someone better at this game than me.

You only need speed and some helmet. Magiluminescence+Walking cane+3 thulecite crown (if its your first time)+2 darkswords/thulecite club

You will enjoy it more than just pressing F

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1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Aha. So is not about your fun and personal experience with DST fights but about others'. The classic "dammit they be bragging and I don't like that". Oh, how many "we should fix AI and exploits" topics around these forums ultimately boil-down to that, heh.

I for one don't care about what other players may or may not achieve during my pub sessions. I saw Wes players going in winter for Ruins with nothing beside torches, grass suits, axes and very big cojones - to Status Announce 2 days later after their spawn a Guardian Horn and Thule stuff in inventory. Good for them, it means they've mastered the game, glitches most included. I don't have any problem with them abusing aspects of the game - again, it means they have the knowledge and most importantly, experience with said know-how to actually prevail. And no, just knowing doesn't mean you suddenly are "a pro" - a $#it-tone of stuff can and will go wrong, and when that happens experience makes the difference. Is "legit" AG fight fun? If it had 2k life for a single player, maybe. A 10k one definitely not. And for the loot it gives a 10k "legit" fight for sure isn't worth it in my book. One could argue DST has in its title the desired game-play: as a team. Yet how many people do actually play as teams, more so in pubs where everyone is prone to their own mojo?! Or you fancy a tanking approach, how almost all fights go as teams against Dragonfly? Oh wait, I saw in past complains about that type of fighting related to DF too. Hmmm...

Exploiting the games ai and bugs for late game items on day 1 throws the balance of the entire game off, I sincerely dont understand how this is arguable.

 

Players should just be able to cheat any item they want into the game right? After all, it IS fun for them isnt it?

Alright, lots of changes to make to the Guardian fight to make him fun, cant wait to start.

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1 hour ago, Ogrecakes said:

Exploiting the games ai and bugs for late game items on day 1 throws the balance of the entire game off, I sincerely dont understand how this is arguable.

 

Players should just be able to cheat any item they want into the game right? After all, it IS fun for them isnt it?

That's how you see it. Yet you gloss over - in the case of AG - the fact you first need to navigate Caves towards Ruins, be careful with Nightmare Cycle timing and specific mobs present during its Apex (and are highly hostile ofc - Shadow Splumonkeys and Terrorbeaks chasing you relentlessly), actually find Labyrinth, navigate it while dealing by now (as most likely you're insane) with Shadows that disturb the Spiders in there, not to mention there are Clockworks as well in the maze. A lot can go wrong, as stated, and most likely it will even if carefully timing various variables. And when and where was stated that Ruins gear and AG are "late game" aspects? In case you haven't noticed how Klei is presenting the new and old-for-that-matter content, that's also consistent with the sandbox aspect of the game: you can access almost all game aspects immediately after spawn. You can hunt for Malba first autumn, go for Lunar Isles for whatever reasons you may chose to do so, Ruins or raid-boss solo-or-group rushes etc. Is your choice like it is in your power to keep said content for a "late game" moment of your desire (aka whatever that means in your case, be it first summer or when you yourself, in-game-years, consider is "late game"). The "glitches" you point at actually make the game approachable in a more creative manner. If AI of mobs would detect obstacles and go around it, smash walls and fences for baits, destroy graves, pillars and.. anything really, ignore attacks when player is too hard or too far from the reach and so on... you will invalidate all kind of "farming" techniques and only have the tank-or-kite at hand - aka only direct fighting. And now I also see why some of you fighting_only-enthusiasts are adamant regarding reworks of the fighting mechanic into something more complex... while also directly or indirectly lobbying for DST to basically became a giant wave-based mobs/bosses rush arena.

 

Again if you are bothered by what other people in the pubs you frequent are able to do of their own skill-level and choosing then maybe... don't play those pubs? Or do first what they do if your target is the "late game" Thule gear and feel you're in direct competition with said players. And if you can't then try to get better at it if, again, this is your goal in game. Before asking Klei to modify the game to be to your liking look first at what is the dev theoretical line-of-thought from how they did the game (the "you can access almost all game aspects immediately after spawn" facet) and also try to improve your gaming experience yourself by what I've already suggested above and much more: find servers with like-minded individuals as yourself, make such servers when-push-comes-to-shove, agree from start with a set of rules for all server a.s.o.

 

PS: as others stated in previous comments, even if Klei would make AG able to destroy pillars (I thought said pillars are supporting a ceiling over AG arena, if we're talking about consistency, lore and balance wouldn't that imply roof of said stage would need to collapse on AG?!), graves, any type of adjacent structure, ignore player if is too far, mass-AoE mobs like Rocklobsters and such.. what would impede me to do a simple day-2 setup like in below spoiler-image to slowly chip at AG life even if he would to go far and back (re-aggro) or move when detecting impacts - as would be unable to navigate labyrinth to my actual position?! As you see... "we will always find a way" - and that's the beauty of DS/T: it's creative ways of solving problems that makes you feel smart (even if you actually aren't) :encouragement:

Spoiler

ag-easy-mushing

 

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37 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

That's how you see it. Yet you gloss over - in the case of AG - the fact you first need to navigate Caves towards Ruins, be careful with Nightmare Cycle timing and specific mobs present during its Apex (and are highly hostile ofc - Shadow Splumonkeys and Terrorbeaks chasing you relentlessly), actually find Labyrinth, navigate it while dealing by now (as most likely you're insane) with Shadows that disturb the Spiders in there, not to mention there are Clockworks as well in the maze. A lot can go wrong, as stated, and most likely it will even if carefully timing various variables. And when and where was stated that Ruins gear and AG are "late game" aspects? In case you haven't noticed how Klei is presenting the new and old-for-that-matter content, that's also consistent with the sandbox aspect of the game: you can access almost all game aspects immediately after spawn. You can hunt for Malba first autumn, go for Lunar Isles for whatever reasons you may chose to do so, Ruins or raid-boss solo-or-group rushes etc. Is your choice like it is in your power to keep said content for a "late game" moment of your desire (aka whatever that means in your case, be it first summer or when you yourself, in-game-years, consider is "late game"). The "glitches" you point at actually make the game approachable in a more creative manner. If AI of mobs would detect obstacles and go around it, smash walls and fences for baits, destroy graves, pillars and.. anything really, ignore attacks when player is too hard or too far from the reach and so on... you will invalidate all kind of "farming" techniques and only have the tank-or-kite at hand - aka only direct fighting. And now I also see why some of you fighting_only-enthusiasts are adamant regarding reworks of the fighting mechanic into something more complex... while also directly or indirectly lobbying for DST to basically became a giant wave-based mobs/bosses rush arena.

 

Again if you are bothered by what other people in the pubs you frequent are able to do of their own skill-level and choosing then maybe... don't play those pubs? Or do first what they do if your target is the "late game" Thule gear and feel you're in direct competition with said players. And if you can't then try to get better at it if, again, this is your goal in game. Before asking Klei to modify the game to be to your liking look first at what is the dev theoretical line-of-thought from how they did the game (the "you can access almost all game aspects immediately after spawn" facet) and also try to improve your gaming experience yourself by what I've already suggested above and much more: find servers with like-minded individuals as yourself, make such servers when-push-comes-to-shove, agree from start with a set of rules for all server a.s.o.

 

PS: as others stated in previous comments, even if Klei would make AG able to destroy pillars (I thought said pillars are supporting a ceiling over AG arena, if we're talking about consistency, lore and balance wouldn't that imply roof of said stage would need to collapse on AG?!), graves, any type of adjacent structure, ignore player if is too far, mass-AoE mobs like Rocklobsters and such.. what would impede me to do a simple day-2 setup like in below spoiler-image to slowly chip at AG life even if he would to go far and back (re-aggro) or move when detecting impacts - as would be unable to navigate labyrinth to my actual position?! As you see... "we will always find a way" - and that's the beauty of DS/T: it's creative ways of solving problems that makes you feel smart (even if you actually aren't) :encouragement:

  Reveal hidden contents

ag-easy-mushing

 

The absolute sheer arrogance and baseless assumptions here is sickening, if you have to go ahead and make up reasons why im wrong based on lies and random speculation then I dont want to even attempt to have a discussion with someone like you.

 

Yes, clearly getting the ai stuck on a wall making it a worthless opponent is intelligent, and clearly I am glossing over aspects of the game that are clearly not part of my arguement. All 3 sentences of it.

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28 minutes ago, Ogrecakes said:

Yes, clearly getting the ai stuck on a wall making it a worthless opponent is intelligent, and clearly I am glossing over aspects of the game that are clearly not part of my arguement. All 3 sentences of it.

A TL;DR about what @x0-VERSUS-1y wrote (at least how I understood, correct me if I'm wrong) is not that this cheesing method is intelligent (it clearly isn't), but rather asks why does it hurt you that others use this method. Even most of such exploits require some skill and experience, in this case knowledge about the ruins and their dangers. It's not like you couldn't kill AG in first autumn without cheese (there are several easy ways if you know what you're doing), so why is it a problem which method they use? 

I don't say this bug/feature shouldn't be fixed, I wouldn't mind tbh, but I don't really care. But there are other, actual features that give you even stronger late-game gear for even less effort, shouldn't those be "fixed" as well? 

I once saw a Wicker-Wolfgang pair on a public killing BQ on day 6, with tentacles ofc. Then they both died to the first hound wave. If even noobs, who can't even survive first autumn, can kill one of DST's strongest boss, I think an AG cheese is a lot smaller problem, because that still needs some skill and knowledge about the game.

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2 hours ago, Ogrecakes said:

The absolute sheer arrogance and baseless assumptions here is sickening, if you have to go ahead and make up reasons why im wrong based on lies and random speculation then I dont want to even attempt to have a discussion with someone like you.

 

Yes, clearly getting the ai stuck on a wall making it a worthless opponent is intelligent, and clearly I am glossing over aspects of the game that are clearly not part of my arguement. All 3 sentences of it.

You took that waaaay too personal and emotional. Ofc are general assumptions, as I don't know you personally and that's beside the point. However I've seen various topics over time on these forums and noticed some trends regarding certain desires to make DST "farmless" (because that would be the end result of all those theoretical AI upgrades, wall-smashing to get bait, jumping or going around certain obstacles etc), yet more fight-oriented and the like. And ofc the "endless tougher and tougher wave-based enemies and bosses attacks" desire. Plus yes, I've noticed you at the forefront of all that. If you so desire I can quote those topics but, again, we are going into off-topic.

 

As for "exploits" and perceived "bugs", if you don't wanna go via "well they are simple beings prone to one obsessive action", can always point at the meme-like "is a feature not a bug". Game is what it is and is overwhelmingly loved for that. You seem to have a problem with its current state - and not just this thread, once more. So I've suggested what you can do to improve your present time in DST regarding pubs. Because you yourself wrote it: "I always get really disappointed when I join a server, and within 2 days people are coming out of the ruins with late game weapons and armor" - and that's a You-problem, not a they-problem.

 

Regarding exemplified video, a clear "no" from me. Making it smash those huge pillars just looks weird and, as stated, should collapse the ceiling if we are taking context and lore into account. If you desire a rework of AG to make it less HP-spongy and more of a Klaus-type fight, maybe. I'm rather indifferent regarding AG as I can deal with it in a myriad of ways aside the boring, time-consuming kiting if no "cheese" is used. Plus yes, I like "cheese" as it makes me feel out-smarting "those poor dumb beasts"flattery of vanity is a good strategy from devs towards players, at least for some of them ;)

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if you find the game boring to the point where exploiting is perfectly acceptable and obvious, you don't actually enjoy the game and you should find yourself other titles to play. no matter how much sarcasm and elitism you use in your replies.

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If all bosses could be fixed from players abusing them, that would be great. 

It would include using walls and other structures to easily kill bosses.

Also, seasonal bosses should always seek to destroy your base without losing aggro and simply standing in one area after you run away from them.

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Not sure I understand the point of this thread. Is it to complain that people are playing the game in a way you don't like? Is it to flex the fact that you can code the pillars breaking in 5 minutes? Is this like, a vague mod advertisement?

2 minutes ago, Well-met said:

if you find the game boring to the point where exploiting is perfectly acceptable and obvious, you don't actually enjoy the game and you should find yourself other titles to play

This is a super bad attitude to have. In this case it implies that the ancient guardian is the entire game, and if you want to find workarounds for his fight then you don't enjoy the entire game. The truth is that no, some people simply dislike certain aspects of the game and would rather find workarounds for them, which sometimes requires exploits. Let's take me for example, I enjoy most all of DST's content except the ancient guardian, bee queen, and ancient fuelweaver, so since I find workarounds for those that involve exploits... I don't actually enjoy the game and should quit playing?? Despite the fact I love hundreds to thousands of the other features in this sandbox game, the fact that I find exploits acceptable for three things I do not like automatically means that actually no, I must not enjoy the game and should just play something else? Like... what is that attitude?

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3 hours ago, Ogrecakes said:

The absolute sheer arrogance and baseless assumptions here is sickening, if you have to go ahead and make up reasons why im wrong based on lies and random speculation then I dont want to even attempt to have a discussion with someone like you.

 

Yes, clearly getting the ai stuck on a wall making it a worthless opponent is intelligent, and clearly I am glossing over aspects of the game that are clearly not part of my arguement. All 3 sentences of it.

VERSUS is so salty. 

By his logic bug-use on WoW, Allods Online and other games is a cool thing and should stay there.

Remember Ogrecakes, if you call bug a feature, you don't need to fix it!!!!

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1 minute ago, Sunset Skye said:

Not sure I understand the point of this thread. Is it to complain that people are playing the game in a way you don't like? Is it to flex the fact that you can code the pillars breaking in 5 minutes? Is this like, a vague mod advertisement?

This is a super bad attitude to have. In this case it implies that the ancient guardian is the entire game, and if you want to find workarounds for his fight then you don't enjoy the entire game. The truth is that no, some people simply dislike certain aspects of the game and would rather find workarounds for them, which sometimes requires exploits. Let's take me for example, I enjoy most all of DST's content except the ancient guardian, bee queen, and ancient fuelweaver, so since I find workarounds for those that involve exploits... I don't actually enjoy the game and should quit playing?? Despite the fact I love hundreds to thousands of the other features in this sandbox game, the fact that I find exploits acceptable for three things I do not like automatically means that actually no, I must not enjoy the game and should just play something else? Like... what is that attitude?

you can solo kill every boss without cheating

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2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

you can solo kill every boss without cheating

Yes, and I never said otherwise. You have to remember this is a video game and the point of a video game is to have fun. I've done solo kills before of every boss except Toadstool, and I find it unfun and incredibly tedious, so I use exploits as a workaround for the very very very few parts of this video game that I do not find fun, for the parts that just feel like work without them. I want to ask again, why would this mean I actually somehow don't enjoy the game at all?

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8 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

Yes, and I never said otherwise. You have to remember this is a video game and the point of a video game is to have fun. I've done solo kills before of every boss except Toadstool, and I find it unfun and incredibly tedious, so I use exploits as a workaround for the very very very few parts of this video game that I do not find fun, for the parts that just feel like work without them. I want to ask again, why would this mean I actually somehow don't enjoy the game at all?

How come you don't see the problem?

If INTENDED BY THE DEVS  method of killing boss is unfun and players have to invent their-own method using bugs and exploits (that were NOT INTENDED BY THE DEVS) that means there is A FAILURE IN GAME DESIGN.

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