Making liquid oxygen without supercoolant

[psusi]

I can't seem to find a thread on making liquid oxygen.  What is a good way to do it without supercoolant?  I was thinking of using ethanol in the AT to cool the oxygen down to -100 or so, then looping it through a thermo-regulator until it's -168, then limit it to 100g/s with a valve so it doesn't break the pipes before sending it through two final thermo-regulators then dripping it out into a room with a liquid pump.  Once the first batch is made in this painful way, then use the liquid oxygen itself in the AT to cool a floor of diamond windows with some tempshift plates on top.  Let the LOX collect on the windows and use a temperature sensor to let in more oxygen from the ethanol stage only when the LOX is good and cold.  Use a liquid sensor to enable the liquid pump when the LOX is high enough ( and maybe also cold enough.. inhibit the incoming oxygen gas and pump some liquid out instead when there's enough ).

[Ixio]

H2 in thermo reg loop?

[psusi]

37 minutes ago, Ixio said:

H2 in thermo reg loop?

Thermo-regs are less efficient than an AT though.  Though I guess with the difference in SHC it ends up being better than lox in an AT.... but then you have to cool the thermo-regs... you don't want to have to spend power running an AT to cool the TR so... would it make sense to put a bunch of them in a steam turbine room?  You'd need like 5 of them to produce the same heat as 1 AT.  And I guess each one needs its own temp sensor and bypass.  Annoying but I suppose it will work.

[caffeinated21]

You can still pre-cool it with a ethanol AT and/or a AETN 

[psusi]

2 hours ago, caffeinated21 said:

You can still pre-cool it with a ethanol AT and/or a AETN 

Oh yea, I forgot about the AETNs... I have two that I'm not using.  It looks like they will go down to -173, so just about cold enough to liquefy the oxygen.

[Coolthulhu]

3 hours ago, psusi said:

Oh yea, I forgot about the AETNs... I have two that I'm not using.  It looks like they will go down to -173, so just about cold enough to liquefy the oxygen.

Oxygen liquefies around -186C so you'll still need TRs. AETNs are about 2.5 as powerful as hydrogen TRs, so not amazing.

Unless you're energy starved, it would probably be a good idea to skip AETNs and just use AT+TRs or even only TRs.

[Dosephshih]

3 hours ago, psusi said:

Oh yea, I forgot about the AETNs... I have two that I'm not using.  It looks like they will go down to -173, so just about cold enough to liquefy the oxygen.

Oxygen condensation point is about -183, which is not done by solely AETNs.

To make LOX, you can only use fluid which can still can flow at -183C. The only usable is hydrogen. Hence, just simply pass hydrogen through AETNs to -173 and followed by a thermoregulator.

[Neotuck]

@psusi deja vu 

The topic of making liquid oxygen has been around before space was added (no space materials like super coolant) so if it's possible to search the forums from back then they should be easy to find

Unfortunately we can't as old topics like that get deleted, lucky I still have every screenshot I ever took (mostly because I'm too lazy to delete them)  And found an old LOX machine I had built for making unlimited O2 from Morbs and PO2 vents (Back then sand was finite so deodorizers was a no go)

The concept was simple, use hydrogen in a series of thermo regulators controlled with valves and sensors

then use a solid medium on a looping rail to transfer heat between the hydrogen and oxygen

The design is crude by current update standards but maybe you can tweak it a little for some pre-space LOX

Hope this helps

[yoakenashi]

Also, once you have enough LOX, you can use an aquatuner to keep it cold and to liquify additional oxygen. I have done this several times in the past.

This will save on power as the AT is much more energy efficient than the TR.

[Zarquan]

33 minutes ago, yoakenashi said:

Also, once you have enough LOX, you can use an aquatuner to keep it cold and to liquify additional oxygen. I have done this several times in the past.

This will save on power as the AT is much more energy efficient than the TR.

Actually, I believe per unit power, using hydrogen in thermoregulators is better.  But per unit space, liquid oxygen is better.

[yoakenashi]

4 hours ago, Zarquan said:

Actually, I believe per unit power, using hydrogen in thermoregulators is better.  But per unit space, liquid oxygen is better.

Double check my math, but the aquatuner is about 12 times more efficient than thermo regulators for LOX:
Math was double checked values corrected:

LOX: 1.01 DTU/(g*C)
H2: 0.168 DTU/(g*C)
H2: 2.4 DTU/(g*C)

Running an aquatuner which takes 1.2kW:
10kg/s * 14C * 1.01DTU/(g*C) = 141.4kDTU/s
(141.4kDTU/s)/(1.2kW) = 117.83(DTU/s)/W

Running a thermo regulator, which takes 240W (0.240kW):
1kg/s * 14C * 0.168DTU/(g*C) = 2.352kDTU/s
1kg/s * 14C * 2.4DTU/(g*C) = 33.6kDTU/s
(2.352kDTU/s)/(0.240kW) = 9.8(DTU/s)/W
(33.6kDTU/s)/(0.240kW) = 140(DTU/s)/W

117.83/9.8 = 12.02 times more efficient to use an aquatuner than thermo regulators.
117.83/140 = 0.84 times more efficient to use an aquatuner than thermo regulators.

Meaning, it is better to use the thermo regulator. I stand corrected, thanks @Coolthulhu and @Angpaur for pointing out my mistake.

[Coolthulhu]

11 minutes ago, yoakenashi said:

1kg/s * 14C * 0.168DTU/(g*C) = 2.352kDTU/s

0.168 is conductivity, heat capacity is 2.4.

So it's:

1kg/s * 14C * 2.4 DTU/(g*C) = 33.6 kDTU/s

https://oni-db.com/details/airconditioner says the same so I should be correct.

33.6 / 0.24 is 140 (DTU/J), making hydro TR somewhat more efficient than oxygen AT.

Still, even if it wasn't, hydrogen has the advantage of a wide range of gas phase. Tuning oxygen is a risk of pipe breakage, unless you ensure it only gets tuned while hot enough and never gets "stagnant" in the pipes.

[Angpaur]

19 minutes ago, yoakenashi said:

H2: 0.168 DTU/(g*C)

You need to do the math again, this time using correct SHC value for Hydrogen.

[KILLABUDZ]

Do you mean something like this? I saw it and have been meaning to give it a go.

 

[Craigjw]

You can make liquid oxygen using liquid oxygen!

Create a regular LOX setup, using Aquatuners, as though it would use supercoolant, but use liquid oxygen as the coolant.

First though, you need to use some thermo regulators with hydrogen to make some initial liquid oxygen, then just pipe the LOX into the Aquatuner setup.  When you have supercoolant, just empty the LOX coolant and replace with supercoolant.

 

[Neotuck]

Any one remember the "Borg Cube"?

I miss those days...

[psusi]

3 minutes ago, Craigjw said:

You can make liquid oxygen using liquid oxygen!

Create a regular LOX setup, using Aquatuners, as though it would use supercoolant, but use liquid oxygen as the coolant.

First though, you need to use some thermo regulators with hydrogen to make some initial liquid oxygen, then just pipe the LOX into the Aquatuner setup.  When you have supercoolant, just empty the LOX coolant and replace with supercoolant.

 

You are now the second person to echo my original idea in this thread and I realized that hydrogen TR is more efficient than a liquid oxygen AT.  Read the thread first

[Prince Mandor]

18 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

Any one remember the "Borg Cube"?

I miss those days...

I remember vomitorium

Super-sustainable achievement just reminds us about that days

[Neotuck]

27 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

I remember vomitorium

I don't, and after entering "vomitorium" in the forum search bar only this^ comment was found

can you please explain?

[KILLABUDZ]

1 minute ago, Neotuck said:

can you please explain?

Stressed dupes vomiting in a pool as a renewable pwater source.

[Neotuck]

2 minutes ago, KILLABUDZ said:

Stressed dupes vomiting in a pool as a renewable pwater source.

I guess it's a pun then because a vomitorium is a passage situated below or behind a tier of seats in an amphitheater or a stadium, through which big crowds can exit rapidly at the end of a performance. They can also be pathways for actors to enter and leave stage.

[Prince Mandor]

Just now, Neotuck said:

I don't, and after entering "vomitorium" in the forum search bar only this^ comment was found

can you please explain?

Long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

There were no geysers. So, only one not finite resource was dupes, and they can provide only water. And especially good at this was dupes with "vomit" reaction to stress.

So there was horrible place for this little fellas, to make them suffer and vomit. And out of theirs "mess" and vomits some water came to this barren asteroid. This ugly and horrible place was called "vomitorium"

:)))

So, super-sustainable achievement reminds us about that time. Prohibiting usage of any energy, except created by dupes and their water (steam and hydrogen)

[KILLABUDZ]

It isnt a pun so much as a historical fallacy. There have been emperors and kings known to gorge and vomit but the ancient roman vomitorium is a myth.

[Junksteel]

@Neotuck A version of Borg Cube was revived not so long ago. But yeah, still fun but not needed as in the past...
 

 

[Neotuck]

1 minute ago, Junksteel said:

@Neotuck A version of Borg Cube was revived not so long ago. But yeah, still fun not needed as in the past...

ya the original Borg Cube made use of a heat deletion bug known as "drip cooling" it allowed an aquatunner to cool it'self faster than it heated up

It was so easy to build that many players called it a cheat and looked for alternatives for cooling their base

6 minutes ago, KILLABUDZ said:

It isnt a pun so much as a historical fallacy. There have been emperors and kings known to gorge and vomit but the ancient roman vomitorium is a myth.

I mean pun used by early ONI players

as for the rest I was quoting Wikipedia