The nerfed wheezwort no longer self planting anymore?

[Lurve]

[ETA] Nevermind.

[Nickerooni]

It sounds to me like the wheezewort would still be useful for early, mid and late game cooling if it only cost 2kg/day phosphorite. Although, maybe the balance is intended to not be so useful throughout the game? 20kg/day makes it a temporary early game tool.

What about other interesting ingredients one might feed this mystical heat consuming creature? Consuming ice, or something else guaranteed cold, might be interesting - although, even 5kg of ice per day would be 20 kW of cooling + 5kg of 30 degree water if It warmed up over a day. 1kg of ice/day? 600 g/day?

[Bluefoxfire]

There's also another thing every one of you seems to ignore. When any resource is deleted in some way, any heat/lack of it will go with it. In this case, any heat on the phos gets deleted as it's being consumed.

I actually want to try an experiment of sorts with it. Brainstorming now.

[Junksteel]

42 minutes ago, Nickerooni said:

 Although, maybe the balance is intended to not be so useful throughout the game?

I dare to say it's not a maybe, it's a fact. But why? Is it more fun having to build steam turbines everywhere than exploring the map? Tbh, it was my favourite part of the game. Exploration induced by the necessity to look for a bit cooling. Now, just dig down straight to oil, rush that plastic, throw that steam turbine and then you have everything you'll ever need: geysers, volcanoes, cooling AND power!!! Let's talk about balancing...

In the meanwhile people are discussing what are the still almost useless tools we have in the game. Why obliterating what we already have functioning well?

Nerfing well stablished tools without introducing new ones or new problems to be solved is disapointing. ONI is a sandbox game with various problems and a toolset available to deal with them. Reducing the toolbox to solve some problems should be a self imposed challenge, not a must. The game gets thinner this way and loses replayability value.

Don't get me wrong, I love steam turbines. It's just that the game isn't released yet and I built a dozen of them since the testbranches and I'm already tired of them.

I miss the wheezeworts. I miss them a lot!

Ps.: I think I miss them that much not only because of their effect but because what they meant to me and how I loved them since the first time I discovered those blue saviors

[Nickerooni]

1 hour ago, Bluefoxfire said:

There's also another thing every one of you seems to ignore. When any resource is deleted in some way, any heat/lack of it will go with it. In this case, any heat on the phos gets deleted as it's being consumed.

I actually want to try an experiment of sorts with it. Brainstorming now.

The heat in 20kg/day of phosphorite is a pittance compared to the 12kDTU/s you can delete with the WW. Plus, the farming tile isn’t insulated, so it’s not like you could delete 100 degree phosphorite anyway. It would cool by the time you deleted it.

[Denisetwin]

1 hour ago, Junksteel said:

Nerfing well stablished tools without introducing new ones or new problems to be solved is disapointing. ONI is a sandbox game with various problems and a toolset available to deal with them. Reducing the toolbox to solve some problems should be a self imposed challenge, not a must. The game gets thinner this way and loses replayability value.

This is the point I was trying to make in a different thread.  I HATE that they are nerfing everything and fear that so much will get nerfed with the shouts from a few from the forum that it will limit replayability.  The thing is, you don't HAVE to play with wheezies or slush geysers or steam engines or whatever X you think is "over powered".  Just dig them up or brick them up or don't use them.  But when I want to play a base with a lot more dupes than my normal super slow go, I love playing with slushies because it makes for a completely different game than when I play one without a slushie.  And that's what I love.  Being able to play a totally different game each time I start a new base. If I want a different challenge I might decide on a base that I am not going to use electrolizers and see how far I can get. That doesn't mean I get on the forum, declare electrolizers over powered and agitate to get it removed from the game.   I just don't use it in that game.   If everything gets nerfed to the point that there is only one way to play effectively because a few here are determined that there is only one "right" way to play, (ie only one effective way to get food, only one effective way to cool etc.)  I am going to be a sad puppy and ONI will no longer have the replay value that it does currently. I like having multiple real options to solve my base's problems.  I was so proud and satisfied one time when I got the chlorine clamp to run a steam engine, I spent a LOT of time on that.  The next game instead I worked up a coal/NG power plant with a different take and that was fun too.  I like CHOICES.  Not just oh none of these will work very well, you have to use X if you want it to work well for very long.   I just played on Arboria with very little water and it was a totally different experience than my last play through that had two slushies close to base.  And I really enjoyed both.  The pips planting seeds willy nilly was hilarious and I loved it even when they would fill in my farm tiles with mirth seeds before I could plant what I wanted!  I really hope Klei keeps multiple valid problem solving options in the game and doesn't nerf so many things to go the way of the Ore Scrubber. 

[bobucles]

There are two other options for wheezewort food:

- Direct air input. 1000g goes in, 990g goes out. The gas gets cooled at a cost of 6kg per day. That's a dent in the hydrogen supply of a SPOM, as eating 10g/s hydrogen is equivalent to 80W of consumption, or it can be used to slowly delete whatever gas you like. Wild worts of course don't suffer the penalty.

- Germy air input. Germs go in, the wort eats the germs and cool clean air comes out. It's more difficult to set up a source of germs than you'd think. Most sources have limited temperature range or limited air choices. Sporechid has a wide temperature range, and CO2 can pump germs into H2. Super dangerous but potentially fun to play with.

[Troxism]

Personally I was surprised they didn't double the cooling output of Wheezeworts when they added the fertilizer req (so that wild ones would be half as good as 'old' wheezeworts and fertilized ones would be twice as good), esp considering there are on average less wheezewort seeds now due to more other biomes crowding them out. As it is now they feel pretty weak compared to even Ice Makers if you consider the hassle involved of setting up hydrogen rooms (honestly even before they were never comparable to turbines at all so that isn't a great comparison). 

[Ecu]

11 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Nerfed into the ground. Removing them entirely would have been better. They have a use as red herrings, leading new players down unsustainable paths.

This is rather hyperbolic.  Wheezeworts have not had their cooling rate destroyed.  Adding maintenance that encourages you to ranch two dreckos per wheezewort (with happy bonus, it seems), is hardly nerfed into the ground.  Even if it was four drecos to feed a wheezewort, it wouldn't make wheezeworts pointless.  They can also still be wild planted by utilizing pips to create cooling towers (the planting restrictions aren't unworkable).

To me, posts like this come off as if the poster hasn't even attempted to work with the new mechanics and is merely relying on assumptions.

 

[Gurgel]

2 minutes ago, Ecu said:

To me, posts like this come off as if the poster hasn't even attempted to work with the new mechanics and is merely relying on assumptions.

I disagree. ONI is enough of a simulation that I can predict the effect of the changes. And that prediction says that I now need tedious large installations where I could do something simple before. I will also state that I very much do not like this specific change and that you are just re-hashing arguments given many times before and adding an invalid argument Ad Hominem on top that has also been given many times before.

[pacovf]

12 hours ago, Junksteel said:

Wheezeworts are dead.

You need to keep them in farm tiles, fertilize them and then you'll have a cooling effect much inferior than a steam turbine for example. And of course, even farming them no extra seeds will ever drop.

Actually, now that I think about it, there’s isn’t much of a reason why WWs don’t create seeds anymore. It would have been broken before, when they were free, but now that they cost phosphorite, it sounds like it should be fair game.

[Ecu]

42 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

I disagree. ONI is enough of a simulation that I can predict the effect of the changes. And that prediction says that I now need tedious large installations where I could do something simple before.

You do not need a extremely large installation to ranch two dreckos per wheezewort, at least not unless you intend on utilizing an excessive amount of wheezeworts.  I suppose you might find this as tediously large installations, but I certainly do not.  This seems like reasonable maintenance for infinite cooling.  This is why I feel you are coming off as hyperbolic.

34 minutes ago, pacovf said:

Actually, now that I think about it, there’s isn’t much of a reason why WWs don’t create seeds anymore. It would have been broken before, when they were free, but now that they cost phosphorite, it sounds like it should be fair game.

I can definitely see merits in this.  Though, we do have to keep in mind that wild planting is still an option.  As such, being able to farm wheezewort seeds could be an issue.  Maybe require pips or some other mechanism to acquire more seeds?  I think this is how one acquires more abor tree seeds (though not certain).

[Junksteel]

32 minutes ago, pacovf said:

Actually, now that I think about it, there’s isn’t much of a reason why WWs don’t create seeds anymore. It would have been broken before, when they were free, but now that they cost phosphorite, it sounds like it should be fair game.

Well, at least with unlimited seeds we could get something out of them again. If we already need to have phosphorite ready to go, a motivation to produce it in a crazy large scale could be fun, engaging and give some dignity to the poor worts. Even more so with a tiny buff on their individual cooling imho.

[Gurgel]

5 minutes ago, Junksteel said:

Well, at least with unlimited seeds we could get something out of them again. If we already need to have phosphorite ready to go, a motivation to produce it in a crazy large scale could be fun, engaging and give some dignity to the poor worts. Even more so with a tiny buff on their individual cooling imho.

I agree. That would be something. And it would be a change instead of a limiting nerf.

[chasinji]

49 minutes ago, Ecu said:

This is rather hyperbolic.  Wheezeworts have not had their cooling rate destroyed.  Adding maintenance that encourages you to ranch two dreckos per wheezewort (with happy bonus, it seems), is hardly nerfed into the ground.  Even if it was four drecos to feed a wheezewort, it wouldn't make wheezeworts pointless.  They can also still be wild planted by utilizing pips to create cooling towers (the planting restrictions aren't unworkable).

To me, posts like this come off as if the poster hasn't even attempted to work with the new mechanics and is merely relying on assumptions.

 

i would agree if the seeds self planting that produce foods have disabled. but not wheezewort, the unique plant or critter that can produce only cooling, not foods. atleast bring back the capability of wheezewort self planting on natural tiles. because as far as i know, there is no dirt tiles in ice biomes, which wheeze wort naturally live on. i believe the developers has oversight on wheezewort mechanics.

Or may be i do not know what is new rules for wheezewort? please Enlight me.

[Junksteel]

1 minute ago, chasinji said:

 atleast bring back the capability of wheezewort self planting on natural tiles. 

Or the hability to sit in a planter box as a good decor plant? How much cool would be that, huh?

It's a joke. Don't hit me please.

[BaloneyOs]

I think it's nice for the flavor of this game to give more incentives to preserve cold biomes. Even with the nerf, zero input free heat deletion for the entire game is fundamentally unique and IMO still quite powerful at this stage of changes. It's just no longer a moving part used for speedrunning the cooling process, and understandably a less favorable option for players who want shorter games in general.

Also it feels as if many of the recent complaints (lettuce, WW, reed fiber) all trace back to some complaints about ranching. Hopefully they can implement critter comfort temp or change some behaviors to make ranching more rewarding and flavorful.

[zarklord_klei]

1 hour ago, BaloneyOs said:

zero input free heat deletion for the entire game is fundamentally unique and IMO still quite powerful at this stage of changes.

as long as steam turbines exist in the current form, then this statement is fundamentally false, steam turbines are so freaking powerful, that any other forms of heat deletion are basically meaningless.

[BaloneyOs]

4 minutes ago, Zarklord said:

as long as steam turbines exist in the current form, then this statement is fundamentally false, steam turbines are so freaking powerful, that any other forms of heat deletion are basically meaningless.

You really can't compare the two in a vacuum. This game is about how the interconnected systems work in tandem so the steam turbine is not strictly better unless maybe you can easily build an entire turbine setup and use it efficiently by like cycle 20. Zero input cooling is useful at many stages of the game and situations where turbine setups are not.

It'd also be kinda weird if a setup that requires many late game elements to use efficiently didn't reward you more than what you get for free as soon as you see it on the map.

[Ecu]

51 minutes ago, chasinji said:

i would agree if the seeds self planting that produce foods have disabled. but not wheezewort, the unique plant or critter that can produce only cooling, not foods. atleast bring back the capability of wheezewort self planting on natural tiles. because as far as i know, there is no dirt tiles in ice biomes, which wheeze wort naturally live on. i believe the developers has oversight on wheezewort mechanics.

Or may be i do not know what is new rules for wheezewort? please Enlight me.

I'm curious as to what self-planting has to do with this situation?  You can still wild-plant wheezeworts under the current system using pips.  Are you referring to there being issues replanting wheezeworts within an cold biome?  I suppose that could potentially be an issue as I don't believe pips will wild-plant if they are too cold.  However, I would argue that you probably should just be careful about how you affect that biome, if you wish to keep it intact.  You can certainly still wild-plant wheezeworts via the new mechanisms and utilize them that way.  The restrictions aren't even that bad, if this thread is correct in its findings.

[zarklord_klei]

1 hour ago, BaloneyOs said:

You really can't compare the two in a vacuum. This game is about how the interconnected systems work in tandem so the steam turbine is not strictly better unless maybe you can easily build an entire turbine setup and use it efficiently by like cycle 20. Zero input cooling is useful at many stages of the game and situations where turbine setups are not.

It'd also be kinda weird if a setup that requires many late game elements to use efficiently didn't reward you more than what you get for free as soon as you see it on the map.

yes, but actually no. if heat death was even close to an issue by cycle 20, then your statement is correct, but as it is, by the time your going to need to actually deal with heat you can have a full blown steam turbine systems to manage heat.

[EnderCN]

11 hours ago, Nickerooni said:

It sounds to me like the wheezewort would still be useful for early, mid and late game cooling if it only cost 2kg/day phosphorite. Although, maybe the balance is intended to not be so useful throughout the game? 20kg/day makes it a temporary early game tool.

What about other interesting ingredients one might feed this mystical heat consuming creature? Consuming ice, or something else guaranteed cold, might be interesting - although, even 5kg of ice per day would be 20 kW of cooling + 5kg of 30 degree water if It warmed up over a day. 1kg of ice/day? 600 g/day?

They definitely are.  They are just more useful as spot cooling in trouble areas rather than the end game cooling method they used to be.  This change is not the huge deal this thread is making it out to be.  It is rather making wheezeworts an early to mid game cooling option rather than an all game one.  If you are on a map that is a little extra hot they can protect your farms just fine.  If your bathroom is overheating they can protect it just fine.  If you have a hot water tank and you want to use it to feed your research station they can protect the heat this produces just fine.  If you are using an ice machine putting one on each side stops it from bleeding heat into your base just fine. They are a fantastic small area spot coolant available very early game and useful until late game.

[BaloneyOs]

1 hour ago, Zarklord said:

yes, but actually no. if heat death was even close to an issue by cycle 20, then your statement is correct, but as it is, by the time your going to need to actually deal with heat you can have a full blown steam turbine systems to manage heat.

Again you're looking at those things in a vacuum for some reason. Building steam turbine setups late game doesn't invalidate the cooling you got from WW that's been functioning since early game. Those are not mutually exclusive benefits and you don't have to face immediate heat death to benefit from long term passive heat deletion.

[Grimgaw]

2 hours ago, BaloneyOs said:

if heat death was even close to an issue by cycle 20

Some of us played deep into 1000's of cycles, before WWs or Steam Turbines were a thing, without a 'heat death'.

[bobucles]

4 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

Some of us played deep into 1000's of cycles, before WWs or Steam Turbines were a thing, without a 'heat death'.

Obviously during the days of 40C sieve water, of course. Clamped temperature output is a hell of a drug, if used responsibly.