Can Thermo-Nullifier cool a Gold Volcano?

[Junksteel]

I have this in my map and no super coolant.

I found in my last save that 10 worts were more than enough to cool down a pretty solid gold volcano. They froze my cooling pool with everything inside and I just gave free access for dupes to the room where the gold dropped. I even planted sleet wheat in the bottom of the system that was below -10 all time, reaching -50 in dormant periods.

I want to save my worts this time if I can use the nullifier

Thoughts?

[SchlauFuchs]

I haven't tried that, but my approach is to combine a metal volcano with a steam engine to cool the metals down to 230degrees, then have them moved by autosweeper. the remaining temperature can be cooled down in a water bath, the heated water usually gets disposed in oxydizers. Metals do not hold much heat, so the environment does not suffer much heating up.

[SakuraKoi]

Well, the math is quite simple:

On average, a metal volcano type gold produces 320g of gold per second (at best) and at 2626.85°C.

So basically, you'd want it below 100°C so the excess energy is 2526.85 times 320g times the specific heat capacity which is 0.129.

The result is 104 273 =>104 kDTU since a AETN cools with 80 kDTU, you will find it unable to keep up unless the average yield is less (with 230g, the lowest unless out of bound, you will have 74 971). An average yield of 245.426139 g/s would let you end up with 80 kDTU.

Of course, both have to be isolated. 10 Wheeze would serve minus 120 kDTU in Hydrogen so ofc they'd be more than enough if you have maybe 20-55% over-cooling.

[MorsDux]

I always find aetn and worts that can freely cool stuff down to negative degrees are a waste in order to cool hot stuff down to room temp. That sounds like a job for oil, water or polluted water. Or a steam turbine. AETN could (with maybe extra worts added to it) provide a power friendly solution to cool down sieved water just enough to feed bristles for example. Or liquidize co2 for storage. Or precool hydrogen / oxygen before liquidizing. 

[0xFADE]

Is it really just 10(average).  I make rooms with 3 of them and some circulating hydrogen but it didn't seem to do much to counter a copper geyser and I was pretty sure those put out less heat than gold.

Anyway AETN seems perfect for cooling the base.  It isn't quite enough to solely manage any larger tasks.

[M.C.]

7 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Is it really just 10(average).  I make rooms with 3 of them and some circulating hydrogen but it didn't seem to do much to counter a copper geyser and I was pretty sure those put out less heat than gold.

IIRC gold volcanos produce less heat than all other kinds.

[0xFADE]

1 hour ago, M.C. said:

IIRC gold volcanos produce less heat than all other kinds.

That will be nice then.

[Jackblac]

5 hours ago, M.C. said:

IIRC gold volcanos produce less heat than all other kinds.

Gold volcano outputs at 2626.85C and specific heat capacity is 0.129. To cool gold to 20C you need (2626.85-20)*0.129 = 336.3 DTU/g

Copper volcano outputs at 2226.85C and specific heat capacity is 0.386. To cool copper to 20C you need (2226.85-20)*0.386= 851.8 DTU/g

Iron volcano outputs at 2526.85C and specific heat capacity is 0.449. To cool iron to 20C you need (2526.85-20)*0.449 = 1125.6 DTU/g

All geysers outputs in grams are about the same, but the DTU required to cool them differs a lot. Gold is the easiest, then copper and iron is the hardest. 

[chemie]

just sweep the solid gold into a compactor in a small pool of water.  Not much heat associated with that gold

[0xFADE]

When using conveyors with these pools the design is to move it through the metal tiles to transfer heat out fast.  

[Gus Smedstad]

I’ve gone through several iterations with my copper volcano. The best one involved using a sweeper to pick it up and a conveyor to run it through lots of cold metal tiles until it emerged at about 15 C.

15 C is definitely overkill, but I’m using water as my primary bath for the initial copper solidification, and I wanted to be sure that the water wouldn’t turn to steam. In hindsight petroleum probably would have been a better choice. Vaporization’s more catastrophic (sour gas doesn’t convert back easily the way steam does), but it’ll absorb more total heat before it’s a problem, despite the lower specific heat.

[fredhp]

Dont drop water (or any líquid) directly on the liquified metal. Create a vacuum chamber to contain the Vulcano, leaving 3 free tiles below it.

Build a radiator in this 3 tiles, using radiant wolframite gás pipes , and use the heat somewhere else. (Closed loop with hydrogen inside is the heat way)

When the Vulcano is dormant send dupes to collect the metal.

I use this tecnique to farm heat from an iron Vulcano, creating steam for steam Rocket.

 

 

[0xFADE]

Petrol baths are worse. They have a much lower heat capacity. You can get conversion to gas even when the liquid is way under boiling. 

The liquid is there more to cool down the metal tiles that are pulling heat from the metal than to cool it down directly. 

[TunderLock]

I'm biased, but the Oni Assisant Geyser Calculator can tell you if a Thermo Nullifier is enough for your specific geyser.

Plug in the geyser stats and the target temperature you want tool cool the gold too. As long as the required DTU/s over the activity cycle is 80,000 or below, you should be fine. Just have a big heat sink of water (8 blocks or so) to average out the energy into from the fresh liquid gold. 

[lee1026]

Problem with oil bath is that you notice spikes of evaporation because sour gas don't turn neatly back into petrol.

 

When I tried to cool a gold volcano with pwater bath, I got lots of water after a while, just because some water always turns to gas when the volcano goes off. Water is the best liquid for a pool below a volcano because you don't care if it spikes for a bit. 

[Gus Smedstad]

50 minutes ago, fredhp said:

When the Vulcano is dormant send dupes to collect the metal.

This results in dupes picking up incredibly hot metal. Been there, done that. I had lots of dupes getting severe injuries from superheated oxygen wherever the metal was stored.

The heat you can scavenge from the metal simply isn't worth this.

 

47 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Petrol baths are worse. They have a much lower heat capacity. You can get conversion to gas even when the liquid is way under boiling. 

The liquid is there more to cool down the metal tiles that are pulling heat from the metal than to cool it down directly. 

That's not how I'm doing it. Actually, it's the reverse. The cooling is largely from radiant pipes within the metal tiles; the liquid gets some cooling from radiant pipes, but mostly it's transferring heat to the metal tiles.

Bear in mind that this is a working game, and thus extremely messy compared to a debug demo build.

Spoiler

 

Plumbing:

Spoiler

The purpose of the liquid is primarily to keep the auto sweeper and conveyor loader cool. Since it's a vacuum, they will overheat if they aren't immersed in a liquid. If I could cool them directly with the metal tiles, I'd omit the liquid entirely.

There are a lot of metal tiles because I needed that many to cool off glass (this is a dual-purpose setup). I originally had 2 fewer rows, but the glass was sometimes coming out at 70-80 C. With the setup, everything comes out at 15 C.

There's a secondary loop to cool the area around the glass forge. The glass forge tends to make the air around it very hot very quickly if used for any length of time. It was scalding Dupes on a regular basis before I added the cooling loop.

There's some leftover stuff here, and some inefficiencies because it's something that evolved. Originally it was a steam generator for my steam rockets. Then I moved to heating petrol and burning the hot petrol. Finally I converted to a steam turbine to explore exactly how that worked in a setup where I could afford to screw it up.

This setup is not terribly good at transferring the heat from the aquatuner to the steam turbine chamber. It would be a lot better if the aquatuner were directly in the steam turbine lower chamber, instead of using a large heat exchanger to move the heat.

[lee1026]

Dupes can handle impressively hot metal when they are in atmosuits - my dupes grab metal straight from a volcano, and if they don't like it, nothing they have done suggest as such.

[Gus Smedstad]

1 hour ago, lee1026 said:

Dupes can handle impressively hot metal when they are in atmosuits - my dupes grab metal straight from a volcano, and if they don't like it, nothing they have done suggest as such.

Note that I said "where the metal was stored" not "when the dupes were carrying it." What happens is the hot metal superheats the oxygen around the storage unit, and they it's repeated "Scalded!" messages.

The only way you can make picking up hot metal work is if you don't store it anywhere, and Dupes must go into the volcano to use that metal every time.

[fredhp]

12 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

This results in dupes picking up incredibly hot metal. Been there, done that. I had lots of dupes getting severe injuries from superheated oxygen wherever the metal was stored.

The heat you can scavenge from the metal simply isn't worth this.

This is why you should 'farm' the heat before collect the metal. In my case i get iron at 170C ( I feed my rocket with 170C steam, this is why iron is at 170C). Dupes in Atmo suit handle it without problem, and my base cooling system (liquid Poluted water in granite pipes ) deal with the hot oxygen without problem.

The secret is: Only collect the metal when the volcano is dormant and the heat is gone.

 

 

 

[Gus Smedstad]

I still prefer a completely automated system which cools the metal to the point where it adds no heat to my base.

[M.C.]

On 3/14/2019 at 7:53 AM, Gus Smedstad said:

I still prefer a completely automated system which cools the metal to the point where it adds no heat to my base.

There's no need to cool the metal all the way to room temperature. My volcanos produce it at about 250C. I store it all in a vacuum chamber, so no heat is transferred to my base.

[lee1026]

If you use an oil lock and fill the chamber with a lot of thermo mass, you can make the volcano chamber safe for frequent dupe access.